Reality and Fiction

[NucleerChaos1922]

Good day. It seems ridiculous to me to ask such a question, but I had to ask it because someone I was arguing with right now did not accept it. I would be happy to help you.

Seeing a 1A+ hierarchy as part of one's own dream. In short, does establishing R>F superiority make you 1A+ or H1A again? Because the person I'm arguing with argues that R>F only holds for 1A and 1A+. Is that correct? Is R>F insufficient to reach tier H1A?

 

[SweetDao]

Is that correct? Is R>F insufficient to reach tier H1A?

R>F can exist on all layers, on all level of 1-A/High 1-A, the important thing is to have a different, higher quality. It's just more difficult to prove it when the higher quality is the same as the lower one, but not impossible either.

Seeing a 1A+ hierarchy as part of one's own dream. In short, does establishing R>F superiority make you 1A+ or H1A again?

Unless Ultima answer you, some people will tell you both sides could be equally plausible, since there is no precedent right now for such a thing.

You can check from time to time this thread to get the answer you need whenever Ultima comes to it: https://vsbattles.com/threads/when-...e-3-banquet-of-the-new-tiering-system.170014/

Personally, it would still only be 1-A+.

 

[NucleerChaos1922]

R>F can exist on all layers, on all level of 1-A/High 1-A, the important thing is to have a different, higher quality. It's just more difficult to prove it when the higher quality is the same as the lower one, but not impossible either.

Unless Ultima answer you, some people will tell you both sides could be equally plausible, since there is no precedent right now for such a thing.

You can check from time to time this thread to get the answer you need whenever Ultima comes to it: https://vsbattles.com/threads/when-...e-3-banquet-of-the-new-tiering-system.170014/

Personally, it would still only be 1-A+.

For example, let me give an example that there is a 1A+ hierarchy. A realm that is completely independent and beyond this hierarchy sees the 1A+ hierarchy as a dream, I think this could make it tier H1A. So, can the existence of an infinite dream hierarchy on this H1A tier make a person Infinity Layer High 1-A?

 

[SweetDao]

A realm that is completely independent and beyond this hierarchy sees the 1A+ hierarchy as a dream, I think this could make it tier H1A

Depends on the exact wording. It's not a given for it to be H1A.

. So, can the existence of an infinite dream hierarchy on this H1A tier make a person Infinity Layer High 1-A?

No. Even if it was High 1-A, the next layers would merely be layers within baseline High 1-A. You would need to have infinite hierarchies/infinite qualities to be infinite layers into High 1-A.

 

[NucleerChaos1922]

Depends on the exact wording. It's not a given for it to be H1A.

No. Even if it was High 1-A, the next layers would merely be layers within baseline High 1-A. You would need to have infinite hierarchies/infinite qualities to be infinite layers into High 1-A.

Actually, that's exactly what I meant. An infinite hierarchy of dreams, and each layer of this hierarchy sees the layer below it as a dream.

 

[SweetDao]

Actually, that's exactly what I meant. An infinite hierarchy of dreams, and each layer of this hierarchy sees the layer below it as a dream.

Yeah, that's what I explained.

Even if you assume that the first level is High 1-A compared to whatever else structure exist in the verse, all subsequent layers are only layers within that same level of High 1-A.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

Seeing a 1A+ hierarchy as part of one's own dream. In short, does establishing R>F superiority make you 1A+ or H1A again?

would still be 1A+, they will just be at the top of the hierarchy here, high 1A transcends all 'forms' of reality and fiction of 1A so it does not matter if r>f changes into dream, storybook, illusion etc will still be 1A.

From Ultima.

High Outerverse level: Characters who exist in a state of "meta-qualitative" superiority. This is to say, they are completely above the "quality" defining lower levels of qualitative superiority, residing in a wholly different hierarchy that operates on higher qualities entirely. For example, if a cosmology has a hierarchy of levels of Reality-Fiction Transcendences, and then a character above it transcends all forms of reality and fiction, being a part of a hierarchy whose mode of superiority functions on something else Note that, in order to be at this tier, the character must exceed the framework of the lower levels entirely, and not simply be at the top of an existing lower hierarchy.

 

[NucleerChaos1922]

Evet, tam olarak bunu anlattım.

Ayette var olan diğer yapılarla karşılaştırıldığında ilk seviyenin Yüksek 1-A olduğunu varsaysanız bile, sonraki tüm katmanlar yalnızca Yüksek 1-A'nın aynı seviyesinin içindeki katmanlardır.

would still be 1A+, they will just be at the top of the hierarchy here, high 1A transcends all 'forms' of reality and fiction of 1A so it does not matter if r>f changes into dream, storybook, illusion etc will still be 1A.

From Ultima.

High Outerverse level: Characters who exist in a state of "meta-qualitative" superiority. This is to say, they are completely above the "quality" defining lower levels of qualitative superiority, residing in a wholly different hierarchy that operates on higher qualities entirely. For example, if a cosmology has a hierarchy of levels of Reality-Fiction Transcendences, and then a character above it transcends all forms of reality and fiction, being a part of a hierarchy whose mode of superiority functions on something else Note that, in order to be at this tier, the character must exceed the framework of the lower levels entirely, and not simply be at the top of an existing lower hierarchy.

If the attribute mentioned here is valid for 1A hierarchies, it would remain in 1A and 1A+. But if you are beyond a 1A+ structure, and you see that structure as a dream, the being that is 1A+ can never come out of your dream and reach you. Because the qualitative superiority to which R>F is applied will be at a much higher level than 1A+, this should make that structure H1A.

 

[SweetDao]

If the attribute mentioned here is valid for 1A hierarchies, it would remain in 1A and 1A+. But if you are beyond a 1A+ structure, and you see that structure as a dream, the being that is 1A+ can never come out of your dream and reach you.

Being inaccessible to a 1-A+ structure =/= Being High 1-A.

Technically speaking, every layer of the structure is already inaccessible to one another, the gap is the only thing that change, not the quality itself.

 

[NucleerChaos1922]

Being inaccessible to a 1-A+ structure =/= Being High 1-A.

Technically speaking, every layer of the structure is already inaccessible to one another, the gap is the only thing that change, not the quality itself.

So give me an example for H1A so I can understand.

 

[SweetDao]

So give me an example for H1A so I can understand.

Eternity is a good example I'd say, the verse runs on an infinite hierarchy of dreams within dreams, with Eternity (and where he's located, technically) being beyond time and space and all levels of realities/dreams.

He operates on another quality, obviously, since his "place" is neither a reality nor a dream, nor is it spatially or temporally qualified.

 

[NucleerChaos1922]

Eternity is a good example I'd say, the verse runs on an infinite hierarchy of dreams within dreams, with Eternity (and where he's located, technically) being beyond time and space and all levels of realities/dreams.

He operates on another quality, obviously, since his "place" is neither a reality nor a dream, nor is it spatially or temporally qualified.

If there is a fictional universe in the H1A tier that you know, give an example from there. It would be more understandable.

 

[SweetDao]

If there is a fictional universe in the H1A tier that you know, give an example from there. It would be more understandable.

I mean, I just gave you an example.

 

[NucleerChaos1922]

I mean, I just gave you an example.

But there is another profile that opposes this.

The Leviathan (The Unwritten)

The Leviathan is a cosmic entity from the comicbook series The Unwritten. It either is or contains the collective consciousness of everyone that experiences stories, and it forms a symbiotic relationship with the worlds; it eats stories and in turn these stories are sustained. The Leviathan has...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[SweetDao]

But there is another profile that opposes this.

They aren't from the same verse, technically. The whole point I took Eternity was to show you the reasoning behind how to get High 1-A (although there are more possibilities) because of how straightforward it is.

 

[NucleerChaos1922]

They aren't from the same verse, technically. The whole point I took Eternity was to show you the reasoning behind how to get High 1-A (although there are more possibilities) because of how straightforward it is.

That's not what I meant. R>F seems to be the reason why Lewiathan is H1A. This clearly contradicts your proposed H1A term.

 

[SweetDao]

Also, I'm pretty sure the profile is dated and doesn't abide by the new tiering system

 

[SweetDao]

Yeah, the page is clearly outdated and while someone tried to do a cosmology upgrade/update, the thread was prematurely closed, so it's not a good example.

 

[Livinaa]

I mean, I just gave you an example.

Marvel Comics Cosmology(World Hierarchy) Revision

This was a long time coming and because of that I decided to move quickly with the changes. So, previously, established in this thread: https://vsbattles.com/threads/j-m-dematteis-marvel-cosmology-split.169120/ So the main jist is to remove scans pertaining to the author “J.M. DeMatteis” and...

vsbattles.com

Eternity is going to be downgraded into 1-A/1-A+

 

[SweetDao]

Eternity is going to be downgraded into 1-A/1-A+

Flabbergasted by this news

 

[NucleerChaos1922]

Flabbergasted by this news

So does that mean your example is wrong?

 

[SweetDao]

So does that mean your example is wrong?

I'll ask Ultima directly I think, it seems awfully weird that a dude who's stated as above the true forms of the abstract remains only "one layer" above 1-A.

 

[NucleerChaos1922]

Flabbergasted by this news

Now let's start from the beginning. If a 1A+ hierarchy dominates each other with R>F and another structure beyond the 1A+ hierarchy does the same, is this insufficient for H1A? Because it basically does the same thing that 1A+ did.

But let's say that in another scenario, the 1A+ hierarchy (a hierarchy that does not use R>F) qualitatively outperforms each other with higher perceptions of infinity. Well, in this case, if the structure beyond this hierarchy provides R>F superiority against it, can't it still be H1A? After all, they do not operate on the same framework of logic.

 

[SweetDao]

If a 1A+ hierarchy dominates each other with R>F and another structure beyond the 1A+ hierarchy does the same, is this insufficient for H1A? Because it basically does the same thing that 1A+ did.

Yes, unless Ultima state otherwise, it's not enough. Just so we're clear, it very well could with additional evidence, but not with just this.

But let's say that in another scenario, the 1A+ hierarchy (a hierarchy that does not use R>F) qualitatively outperforms each other with higher perceptions of infinity. Well, in this case, if the structure beyond this hierarchy provides R>F superiority against it, can't it still be H1A? After all, they do not operate on the same framework of logic.

Just changing quality is not enough, because if so, you wouldn't even need your "1-A+" hierarchy in your example, just one level of 1-A would put the structure beyond at High 1-A by that logic.

To explain in a very crude way, imagine that your first hierarchy operate under the quality of "transcendence", specifically "transcendence of infinity", then the other structure operate under the "transcendence of reality-fiction", while both not share the same method, they do share the same origin (transcendence), as such they are still very much the same quality, just used differently.

Obviously, using an umbrella term such as "transcendence" might be confusing, but you can replace it by "levels" or anything that makes sense to you.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Seeing a 1A+ hierarchy as part of one's own dream. In short, does establishing R>F superiority make you 1A+ or H1A again?

The formation of the hierarchy determines progression. Reaching 1-A or 1-A+ isn’t solely reliant on R > F. If a 1-A+ hierarchy doesn’t utilize R > F as its method of qualitative superiority, then applying proper R > F can elevate a character to High 1-A.

However, if the 1-A+ hierarchy is based on R > F, any further R > F leap from 1-A+ to High 1-A must demonstrate a qualitatively distinct or superior difference from all previously established R > F distinctions.

Essentially, the same type of qualitative superiority cannot be repeatedly used to ascend from 1-A to High 1-A. At High 1-A, the concept shifts to meta-qualities. For instance:

• A 1-A realm that qualitatively transcends another 1-A realm is one layer into 1-A.
• A High 1-A realm that transcends another High 1-A realm represents a layer into High 1-A

An infinite hierarchy of such realms in 1-A corresponds to 1-A+, while an infinite hierarchy of such realms in High 1-A creates a Meta-Qualitative Hierarchy. The term "meta" indicates a form of qualitative transcendence beyond the ones used at the 1-A level.

To surpass a Meta-Qualitative Hierarchy, an even greater form of qualitative transcendence is required. This process can continue indefinitely, forming Meta-Meta-Qualitative Hierarchies and beyond.

 

[NucleerChaos1922]

The formation of the hierarchy determines progression. Reaching 1-A or 1-A+ isn’t solely reliant on R > F. If a 1-A+ hierarchy doesn’t utilize R > F as its method of qualitative superiority, then applying proper R > F can elevate a character to High 1-A.

However, if the 1-A+ hierarchy is based on R > F, any further R > F leap from 1-A+ to High 1-A must demonstrate a qualitatively distinct or superior difference from all previously established R > F distinctions.

Essentially, the same type of qualitative superiority cannot be repeatedly used to ascend from 1-A to High 1-A. At High 1-A, the concept shifts to meta-qualities. For instance:

• A 1-A realm that qualitatively transcends another 1-A realm is one layer into 1-A.
• A High 1-A realm that transcends another High 1-A realm represents a layer into High 1-A

An infinite hierarchy of such realms in 1-A corresponds to 1-A+, while an infinite hierarchy of such realms in High 1-A creates a Meta-Qualitative Hierarchy. The term "meta" indicates a form of qualitative transcendence beyond the ones used at the 1-A level.

To surpass a Meta-Qualitative Hierarchy, an even greater form of qualitative transcendence is required. This process can continue indefinitely, forming Meta-Meta-Qualitative Hierarchies and beyond.

Well this was very helpful, thank you. Consequently, if a 1A+ hierarchy (a hierarchy that does not use the R>F supervenience) becomes 1A+ by ordinary qualitative supervenience, the structure that sees it as a dream can still be h1A. Is it true? Because it has a qualitative superiority framework that is completely separate from the logical framework within which 1A+ is processed.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Consequently, if a 1A+ hierarchy (a hierarchy that does not use the R>F supervenience) becomes 1A+ by ordinary qualitative supervenience, the structure that sees it as a dream can still be h1A.

I answered this.

If a 1-A+ hierarchy doesn’t utilize R > F as its method of qualitative superiority, then applying proper R > F can elevate a character to High 1-A.

 

[NucleerChaos1922]

I answered this.

What is required for an infinitely layered Higher 1-A hierarchy?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

What is required for an infinitely layered Higher 1-A hierarchy?

Infinite levels of qualitative transcendence.

 

[NucleerChaos1922]

Infinite levels of qualitative transcendence.

I already said the same thing you said to someone else above, but he told me it was only enough for the first layer of H1A.

 

[SweetDao]

I already said the same thing you said to someone else above, but he told me it was only enough for the first layer of H1A.

I think he meant what I said, just in a different verbiage. If not, I'll have some beef.

 

[SweetDao]

Nevermind, just checked Dragon Talisman thread because I was sure someone mentioned some similar stuff, quoting Ultima:

They're different things, yeah. High 1-A is stupidly broad and accounts not just for layers in a hierarchy, but also hierarchies of hierarchies, and hierarchies of hierarchies of hierarchies, etc.

Makes no sense to me but aight, I'll learn something new today it seems.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I already said the same thing you said to someone else above, but he told me it was only enough for the first layer of H1A.

High 1-A is endless.

Infinite layers of transcendence into High 1-A is a Meta-Quality Hierarchy.

But, you can have another infinite hierarchy above that, which can be a Meta-Meta-Quality Hierarchy.

So each level of Meta-Quality can have a Hierarchy, and there can be infinite such hierarchies or more.

 

[SweetDao]

High 1-A is endless.

Infinite layers of transcendence into High 1-A is a Meta-Quality Hierarchy.

But, you can have another infinite hierarchy above that, which can be a Meta-Meta-Quality Hierarchy.

So each level of Meta-Quality can have a Hierarchy, and there can be infinite such hierarchies or more.

Ngl, tempted to do a staff thread about this.

Why would individual layers into a "meta"-quality hierarchy even matters, when the important thing now is the number of prefixes?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Ngl, tempted to do a staff thread about this.

Why would individual layers into a "meta"-quality hierarchy even matters, when the important thing now is the number of prefixes?

Because some verses are only 6 layers into High 1-A in a Meta-Quality Hierarchy.

 

[SweetDao]

Because some verses are only 6 layers into High 1-A in a Meta-Quality Hierarchy.

Then, there should be a distinction in the rating because that makes no sense.

Why can't we do something like: High 1-A : "Baseline (Hierarchy level). 6 Layers (Level within the hierarchy). Justification"

Although, I still don't see the use of referencing the layers within a meta-hierarchy or anything above. That's like referencing the dimensional level of the characters within a 1-A reality, cool but useless for the tiering itself.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Why can't we do something like: High 1-A : "Baseline (Hierarchy level). 6 Layers (Level within the hierarchy). Justification"

I mean you can if you want.

Although, I still don't see the use of referencing the layers within a meta-hierarchy or anything above. That's like referencing the dimensional level of the characters within a 1-A reality, cool but useless for the tiering itself.

Tons of verses have beings who are finite layers into 1-A and High 1-A which is why our Top 15 Strongest for those tiers are so variable, and why matches between 1-A Tier's and above is such a pain in the ass.

 

[SweetDao]

Tons of verses have beings who are finite layers into 1-A and High 1-A which is why our Top 15 Strongest for those tiers are so variable, and why matches between 1-A Tier's and above is such a pain in the ass.

Yeah, but right now, from what I understood, we treat High 1-A in a such a weird way that "lesser specificities" are on the same level as the fundamental one.

Let's take an example. Two 1-A verses. Both possesses a single hierarchy of whatever quality (doesn't matter). First one is a hierarchy of 18 layers, the second one is a hierarchy of 32 layers.

Obviously, the distinction is vital. That's like the difference between a 18D being and a 32D one. However, we don't account for whatever is lesser, such as them having a specific dimensionality within their own layers or whatever. We solely focus on the fundamental reason it is in a specific tier. Just to be clear, we probably index those lesser specificities still, just not in the way that is of interest for us in this instant.

However, when reaching High 1-A, somehow, we throw that out of the window. When the level should only account on the level of "meta-qualities", as in, the number of "meta" you have before your "quality", aka, the hierarchy itself you're in, we deliberately put lesser specificities, such as the layer within a "meta-hierarchy" on equal footing as a "level of hierarchy" itself.

Because, if the above usage of High 1-A makes sense, then it makes equal sense to treat layers of 1-A and dimensionality as, also, two specificities to index.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

The formation of the hierarchy determines progression. Reaching 1-A or 1-A+ isn’t solely reliant on R > F. If a 1-A+ hierarchy doesn’t utilize R > F as its method of qualitative superiority, then applying proper R > F can elevate a character to High 1-A.

would still be 1A because it is within the same framework. I don't know how to express this, but you just can't achieve high 1A with R > F. The difference would still be the same as the layers in the hierarchy, even if they were not R > F. but, in this case, transcending all potential layers should result in high 1A, because that would mean transcending all layers, not just the number of layers the verse has.
So, infinite hierarchies don't help at all in getting high 1A

How Different is High 1-A an High 1-A+

Yes. Can please use analogy🙏🙂

vsbattles.com

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

would still be 1A because it is within the same framework. I don't know how to express this, but you just can't achieve high 1A with R > F. The difference would still be the same as the layers in the hierarchy, even if they were not R > F. but, in this case, transcending all potential layers should result in high 1A, because that would mean transcending all layers, not just the number of layers the verse has.

R > F is only part of the framework of 1-A if it is explicitly used at the 1-A level. Therefore, as long as a different form of qualitative superiority is applied, R > F can be used to transition from 1-A to High 1-A. However, this requires additional context demonstrating that the R > F transcendence lies outside the established framework.

So, infinite hierarchies don't help at all in getting high 1A

They can.