[R1M2] 1st Generals of Grove Tournament - Yarrow vs. Clover (0-W-0)

[ExSENNA]

Welcome to the Second Match of the First Round of the 1st Generals of Grove Tournament! (Bracket) (Event Leaderboard)

On the blue corner, we have Yarrow, submitted by @Rayfire!
On the red corner, we have Clover, submitted by @SSB64!
Duel 2, let's go!

Yarrow is 12 Tons. Clover is 12 Tons. Their AP is equal.
Yarrow has Unknown/Class M, Yarrow has Class 100/Class M LS. I don't know who has the LS Advantage.

Genocide Route Clover is used and determination restricted
Anything above 8-A is restricted.
Speed is equalized.
Starting distance is 7 meters.

Yarrow:
Clover: Wins
Incon:

 

[SSB64]

To anyone who's just joined, Clover's DETERMINATION being restricted means that they'll be unable to SAVE and LOAD. One death, and Clover is completely done for.

 

[SSB64]

I'll let Rayfire go first.

 

[Rayfire]

So if yarrow manages to grab clover with his plants, clover is screwed. Clover has a "Possibly" Class M rating which means it may be possible for him to escape, but without determination i don't think he's very likely to have this, which is obviously significantly detrimental to him beyond LS too. His stamina will probably suffer and he may not get the 'persist' option using ACT without willpower.

As for actually damaging yarrow, not only should he be able to take a few hits from clover due to being, y'know, a hero, and having equal AP, but it will be harder for him to land shots than usual, as he hasn't dealt with opponents that have Extrasensory Perception before. (Canon Flowey doesn't have this, and i think this version of flowey also doesn't unless he's completely different)

• Extrasensory Perception (Can use natural plants to sense seismic activity and enemy movements)

I think yarrow is also smart enough to use his plants to block any attacks too, especially if he's up against a fricking kid with a gun Especially since he's seen on his picture to have some plants by his side at all times.

And i did just find this on his durability section on his profile as well

Took blows from Nectrus, higher by protecting himself with plants

Yarrow has plenty of offensive and defensive methods he could go for, especially when he could potentially create the plants underneath him for sneak attacks.

 

[SSB64]

So if yarrow manages to grab clover with his plants, clover is screwed.

Not quite. See, Clover in the Neutral Route, during the final battle against Flowey, is able to break out of Flowey's grasp. For that fight specifically, Clover doesn't actually die and revive. Instead, Flowey grabs Clover and tries to absorb their SOUL, only for Clover to break out of it (This was a much weaker version of Clover, when Flowey still had all of the Determination, and thus, control over everything. It should also be noted that Clover upscales almost everything their Neutral and Pacifist Route counterparts did due to being a stronger version of them.) Even then, Clover could concern and scare Flowey in the Vengeance Route to the point where Flowey was listening to Clover's commands (The start of the Steamworks for reference.) This same Flowey also has Class M Lifting Strength, and also uses plants and vines. If Clover was concerning Flowey at that point, no doubt that LV 20 would be a decent bit higher.

As for actually damaging yarrow, not only should he be able to take a few hits from clover due to being, y'know, a hero, and having equal AP, but it will be harder for him to land shots than usual, as he hasn't dealt with opponents that have Extrasensory Perception before. (Canon Flowey doesn't have this, and i think this version of flowey also doesn't unless he's completely different)

• Extrasensory Perception (Can use natural plants to sense seismic activity and enemy movements)

None of this should really matter. Unless Yarrow wears armor or blocks with his vines, the SOUL cannon should be capable of bypassing Yarrow's Durability since Yarrow hasn't been shown to resist Soul based damage before.

As for Yarrow's Extrasensory Perception, again, this shouldn't matter too much. Clover is the kind of character to fight directly facing their opponent and not exactly playing games to get around them.

But going back the vines, let's give Yarrow the benefit of the doubt. Let's say that Clover doesn't have the LS necessary to break out of the vines. One good vine grab will do it. The question now becomes, how is Yarrow going to get that hit in the first place? Don't forget that Clover is an Undertale character, meaning that they're used to modest levels of Danmaku dodging, usually within the dozens, and Clover is no different. This includes Zenith Martlet's claws which directly appear on top of Clover, so that partly helps even if Yarrow tries to snipe Clover from underground.

I have more to say, but I'll let Rayfire have a chance to make a rebuttal.

 

[Rayfire]

Not quite. See, Clover in the Neutral Route, during the final battle against Flowey, is able to break out of Flowey's grasp. For that fight specifically, Clover doesn't actually die and revive. Instead, Flowey grabs Clover and tries to absorb their SOUL, only for Clover to break out of it (This was a much weaker version of Clover, when Flowey still had all of the Determination, and thus, control over everything. It should also be noted that Clover upscales almost everything their Neutral and Pacifist Route counterparts did due to being a stronger version of them.) Even then, Clover could concern and scare Flowey in the Vengeance Route to the point where Flowey was listening to Clover's commands (The start of the Steamworks for reference.) This same Flowey also has Class M Lifting Strength, and also uses plants and vines. If Clover was concerning Flowey at that point, no doubt that LV 20 would be a decent bit higher.

That still doesn't really make it definitively easy for clover to get out of it though. Yarrow should still be decently into Class M as well, as he's comparable to Lilac who can casually twist and throw a bunch of buildings with her powers. If the two are comparable at all, i don't see being grabbed by the plants as anything beneficial to clover. It's gonna slow the dude down if he's lucky

None of this should really matter. Unless Yarrow wears armor or blocks with his vines, the SOUL cannon should be capable of bypassing Yarrow's Durability since Yarrow hasn't been shown to resist Soul based damage before.

As for Yarrow's Extrasensory Perception, again, this shouldn't matter too much. Clover is the kind of character to fight directly facing their opponent and not exactly playing games to get around them.

But going back the vines, let's give Yarrow the benefit of the doubt. Let's say that Clover doesn't have the LS necessary to break out of the vines. One good vine grab will do it. The question now becomes, how is Yarrow going to get that hit in the first place? Don't forget that Clover is an Undertale character, meaning that they're used to modest levels of Danmaku dodging, usually within the dozens, and Clover is no different. This includes Zenith Martlet's claws which directly appear on top of Clover, so that partly helps even if Yarrow tries to snipe Clover from underground.

I have more to say, but I'll let Rayfire have a chance to make a rebuttal.

Blocking with his vines is something yarrow has been implied to have done in fights before like i imagined he would, so yes, idk what the SOUL cannon is, but he can block it. if it works, it works

(Took blows from Nectrus, higher by protecting himself with plants)

But going back the vines, let's give Yarrow the benefit of the doubt. Let's say that Clover doesn't have the LS necessary to break out of the vines. One good vine grab will do it. The question now becomes, how is Yarrow going to get that hit in the first place? Don't forget that Clover is an Undertale character, meaning that they're used to modest levels of Danmaku dodging, usually within the dozens, and Clover is no different. This includes Zenith Martlet's claws which directly appear on top of Clover, so that partly helps even if Yarrow tries to snipe Clover from underground.

I think that's more-so due to the SAVE and LOAD letting clover know what happened before and letting him plan ways around it. I'm not really an undertale yellow fan (My knowledge of the franchise is limited to the game from years ago and a bit of deltarune) but flowey does mention that he is literally the only reason clover can get around tight situations without his SAVE & LOAD ability or DETERMINATION, neither of which he has here. Without it, clover will always die if he's unable to keep coming back and get used to his opponents' moves, which is why flowey has to intervene, from what i gather, because clover is literally unable to adapt to 99% of situations on his first try without help. And flowey won't be here to steer him off the path of failure either.

Being in his genocide key obviously makes him more experienced and less likely to die, but in any case having zero DETERMINATION is gonna be weighing him down, because in canon undertale, frisk's stats literally hinge on how determined he is, Including LS, and i highly doubt undertale yellow is any different. They are from the same series basically. Overpowering flowey with minimal determination is one thing, but with none at all i don't think he'll be Class M without showings.

 

[SSB64]

That still doesn't really make it definitively easy for clover to get out of it though. Yarrow should still be decently into Class M as well, as he's comparable to Lilac who can casually twist and throw a bunch of buildings with her powers. If the two are comparable at all, i don't see being grabbed by the plants as anything beneficial to clover. It's gonna slow the dude down if he's lucky

All I'm saying is that his comparable LS is part of the reason why trapping Clover in vines is not a surefire W. Not to mention, trapping Clover in vines doesn't stop their SOUL, especially since it can Soul Dash out of the grasp of the vines seeing as it allows Clover to very briefly phase through objects (As shown in the Zenith Martlet fight.)

idk what the SOUL cannon is, but he can block it. if it works, it works

Clover's big laser attack they do with their SOUL as shown in the Zenith Martlet fight.

I think that's more-so due to the SAVE and LOAD letting clover know what happened before and letting him plan ways around it. I'm not really an undertale yellow fan (My knowledge of the franchise is limited to the game from years ago and a bit of deltarune) but flowey does mention that he is literally the only reason clover can get around tight situations without his SAVE & LOAD ability or DETERMINATION, neither of which he has here. Without it, clover will always die if he's unable to keep coming back and get used to his opponents' moves, which is why flowey has to intervene, from what i gather, because clover is literally unable to adapt to 99% of situations on his first try without help. And flowey won't be here to steer him off the path of failure either.

This is more opinion based, but I feel like for this kind of situation, we go with a Cuphead approach (IE, Cuphead dies a bunch in his fights, but for the sake of argument, we say that Cuphead beat each boss on his first try so as to avoid subjectivity in a player's skill.) This is also ignoring the fact that there's timelines where Clover can beat the game without the use of the SAVE feature. Flowey even acknowledges this. I'd do the same for Yarrow. If there's multiple timelines of Yarrow in a similar situation to Clover, then I'd assume it's the Yarrow with the highest reasonable stats and capabilities.

Being in his genocide key obviously makes him more experienced and less likely to die, but in any case having zero DETERMINATION is gonna be weighing him down, because in canon undertale, frisk's stats literally hinge on how determined he is, Including LS, and i highly doubt undertale yellow is any different. They are from the same series basically. Overpowering flowey with minimal determination is one thing, but with none at all i don't think he'll be Class M without showings.

To anyone who's just joined, Clover's DETERMINATION being restricted means that they'll be unable to SAVE and LOAD. One death, and Clover is completely done for.

Nowhere did I mention that Clover's strength would get nullified. My intent with the message was to rid of the SAVE and LOAD function, not necessarily make Clover physically weaker. I also brought this specific thing up when submitting Clover to the Tourney. If I did make them physically weaker, they wouldn't be here due to not being strong enough to qualify.

Another problem is that Clover has a deceptive amount of versatility and staying power. Even in timelines where they didn't need healing, they're able to last in matches that are >10 minutes long and full of Danmaku, and this was when they were LV 1. Clover in this route even has the ability to heal themself without the need of items via an ACT they gain, and the glass bullets also heal Clover each time they are fired out perfectly. Clover has tons of staying power via multiple healing options while Yarrow does not, especially since Clover's dealt with foes with higher AP and Danmaku than Yarrow before, and has still come out on top.

Finally, here's a possibility you likely didn't see coming. It's completely possible that Vengeance Route Clover would be able to SPARE Yarrow. After all, Clover only did what they did to Monsters in order to save humans, and as far as Yarrow is concerned, Monsters are evil and Heroes are the source of good in the world. That, combined with Yarrow's seemingly more friendly and kind nature would make a Clover W via Friendtality completely possible.

 

[Rayfire]

All I'm saying is that his comparable LS is part of the reason why trapping Clover in vines is not a surefire W. Not to mention, trapping Clover in vines doesn't stop their SOUL, especially since it can Soul Dash out of the grasp of the vines seeing as it allows Clover to very briefly phase through objects (As shown in the Zenith Martlet fight.)

Even when this dude for example was basically spamming dash, clovers soul was still stuck in flowey's vines at the end of this short which seem to do the same thing as yarrow's plants. It doesn't work when clover is trapped in a fight situation.

It seems it has a brief cooldown as well, and the dude in the vid still got hit consistently while spamming it, so even if yarrow decided that trying to grab clover was pointless (Assuming he could escape at all) Yarrow can extend his plants to at least hundreds of metres, which is a type of AoE (Area of effect) that clover definitely hasn't faced before. They will be a lot harder to avoid normally if this happens.

Range: Standard Melee Range, Hundreds of Meters with plants (Can have them stretch at least this far)

This is more opinion based, but I feel like for this kind of situation, we go with a Cuphead approach (IE, Cuphead dies a bunch in his fights, but for the sake of argument, we say that Cuphead beat each boss on his first try so as to avoid subjectivity in a player's skill.) This is also ignoring the fact that there's timelines where Clover can beat the game without the use of the SAVE feature. Flowey even acknowledges this. I'd do the same for Yarrow. If there's multiple timelines of Yarrow in a similar situation to Clover, then I'd assume it's the Yarrow with the highest reasonable stats and capabilities.

That would only be a few out of countless timelines judging by how undertale cosmology is scaled here, no? I feel like this example is a pretty big outlier

Undertale is different though. Cuphead needs outside help to revive himself, so I kinda get it in that regard, but in undertale canon and undertale yellow Frisk & Clover need the save system to come back and work around a problem, and it is an actual power they possess rather than just a standard video game power that doesn't inherently make them able to come back to life, as flowey speaks of it like it’s a gift from the gods or sum, so it is a power that both characters utilise in some form, including needing to rise from the dead

In other words, assuming that clover can beat enemies he hasn’t encountered before on his first try like with cupman probably isn’t applicable, especially where timelines where he doesn’t need to come back from the dead don’t seem very consistent at all if it’s just “A few” timelines.

Nowhere did I mention that Clover's strength would get nullified. My intent with the message was to rid of the SAVE and LOAD function, not necessarily make Clover physically weaker. I also brought this specific thing up when submitting Clover to the Tourney. If I did make them physically weaker, they wouldn't be here due to not being strong enough to qualify.

Another problem is that Clover has a deceptive amount of versatility and staying power. Even in timelines where they didn't need healing, they're able to last in matches that are >10 minutes long and full of Danmaku, and this was when they were LV 1. Clover in this route even has the ability to heal themself without the need of items via an ACT they gain, and the glass bullets also heal Clover each time they are fired out perfectly. Clover has tons of staying power via multiple healing options while Yarrow does not, especially since Clover's dealt with foes with higher AP and Danmaku than Yarrow before, and has still come out on top.

Finally, here's a possibility you likely didn't see coming. It's completely possible that Vengeance Route Clover would be able to SPARE Yarrow. After all, Clover only did what they did to Monsters in order to save humans, and as far as Yarrow is concerned, Monsters are evil and Heroes are the source of good in the world. That, combined with Yarrow's seemingly more friendly and kind nature would make a Clover W via Friendtality completely possible.

I’m not saying he’s below 8-B lol, he’s not level 20 for nothing. (I did word this poorly, i was referring to pacifist frisk more than anything due to them being level 1 and them being entirely contingent on determination for stats, but this was mainly about the LS) I’m saying that his LS which seems important here is likely to suffer without determination. Whether he is level 1 or 20 he should still be able to move rocks like frisk does, it doesn't change regardless of level, but frisks profile lists it as a determination-based thing, which clover doesn't have anymore. Unless you just mean that his SAVE and LOAD ability by itself is disabled and not necessarily his supwill

That'd just be one turn spent healing and not fighting yarrow and making progress though. How much does it heal him by? He also can't just heal mid-attack which is not great if he gets wombo-comboed by yarrows AoE.

That sounds extremely out of character for him to do, especially after the axis encounter according to the wiki. If clover sees yarrow as an obstacle (Which he will if he is trying to defeat him, cause SBA) then i highly doubt clovers rage wouldn't take over at this point in time if he is level 20. He even let a monster, Mo, go with his life before this, like he would with a human by your logic. Yet it is clearly stated that he no longer does this at the end of the game because of clovers descent into rage.

Though Clover is much more aggressive, their violent behavior is only directed to those that they consider to be 'enemies' (being monsters which either attack them or otherwise hinder their progress). As such, they are willing to let people go provided they surrender or are not an obstacle (this can best be seen by how Clover refuses to fight or kill Mo in the Steamworks, even while holding Mo at gunpoint). However, this quality slowly diminishes over the course of the route, being lost completely during the Axis encounter. Furthermore, it is during this encounter with Axis that Clover's complete desire for vengeance, hate, and rage are put on display, as seen when their LOVE increases significantly after Axis regretfully reveals how he had to neutralize the previous human before he ultimately meets his destruction at Clover's hands.

 

[SSB64]

Even when this dude for example was basically spamming dash, clovers soul was still stuck in flowey's vines at the end of this short which seem to do the same thing as yarrow's plants. It doesn't work when clover is trapped in a fight situation.

This completely overlooks the fact that Clover was physically strong enough to break out of Flowey's grasp while lacking a body, on the brink of death and not being at LV 20. Regardless of how you look at it, trapping Clover in vines is not an optimal strategy for Yarrow to pull off. Clover will eventually wear Yarrow down since, from what I can see, Yarrow doesn't have the best Stamina. It's quite good, but not in the long run and not in a 1v1. Actually, now that I think about it, we only ever see Yarrow fight with other people, and not really in a 1v1 situation. Not saying Yarrow never did. I'm just saying that in Yarrow's profile, he was brought into the Heroes Association because of his ability to control vines, and he "has risen up ever since", referring to his Rank. If anything, the way it's described makes it seem like he works alongside Lilac most of the time

Unless you just mean that his SAVE and LOAD ability by itself is disabled and not necessarily his supwill

Yeah. That was the intent. Since the SAVE and LOAD feature got controversy and kickstarted the drama, I decided to remove it for this Tourney.

That'd just be one turn spent healing and not fighting yarrow and making progress though. How much does it heal him by? He also can't just heal mid-attack which is not great if he gets wombo-comboed by yarrows AoE.

As I said, Clover can heal a fraction of their health via using the Glass Shards as ammo, but they can also increase their movement speed and agility via the Coffee Beans ammo. Furthermore, I should probably note the gap here between Clover and Yarrow.

Yarrow fought someone much stronger than himself who could fly, plus Yarrow had assistance from a group of Heroes, and still got completely bodied.

Clover, meanwhile, fought someone much stronger than themself who could fly, plus has crazier attacks than Nectrus, and Clover didn't have assistance throughout two of those major fights, yet, depending on the fight, Clover fought to a stalemate or outright came out on top.

He even let a monster, Mo, go with his life before this, like he would with a human by your logic. Yet it is clearly stated that he no longer does this at the end of the game because of clovers descent into rage.

Fair enough. I had no clue about that specific fact. I had justifications for why Clover let their rage kill everyone from Axis and beyond (Axis killed humans, Martlet was trying to stop Clover multiple times, Flowey was manipulative, and Asgore obviously had the other five SOULs.

Actually, I've noticed that you're bringing in the canon to justify Clover's stats. Truth be told, you can get Clover MUCH higher than 12 tons of TNT via using mainline Undertale After all, both Genocide Frisk and Vengeance Clover fight Asgore, the same guy who Flowey, the flower with Class M Lifting Strength, had no chance against no matter how hard they tried. However, Clover's performance is arguably even more impressive since while Frisk one shot Asgore, Clover also did, but not before doing this to an 80 ATK and 80 DEF opponent's attack (For reference, anything 18 and above is considered at or above 17.76 tons of TNT going by canon logic, (See the Notes section of the page), especially since this is a prequel to Undertale and we're using stuff from canon to justify Clover.), further justifying Clover's Class M. Since Yarrow's best offense is 12 Tons and hypothetical High 7-C scaling for both has to be nerfed to 8-A+ for the sake of the tournament, Clover would now have equal durability to Yarrow's vines while also eclipsing them in strength, leading to a not-so-pleasant ending for the plant man since now, Yarrow can't break through Clover, but Clover can break through Yarrow pretty handily. If I had a suggestion, we should stick to using just Undertale Yellow logic if we want this fight to even be fair.

 

[MintyBoi1]

Since Yarrow is baseline, Clover’s LS should be over 5x stronger scaling to Flowey’s 5021 metric tons.

 

[Rayfire]

Yarrow fought someone much stronger than himself who could fly, plus Yarrow had assistance from a group of Heroes, and still got completely bodied.

I mean, duh, the guy they were fighting was High 7-C which is way outta their league

Clover, meanwhile, fought someone much stronger than themself who could fly, plus has crazier attacks than Nectrus, and Clover didn't have assistance throughout two of those major fights, yet, depending on the fight, Clover fought to a stalemate or outright came out on top.

Nectrus actually lacks the kind of AoE or range that yarrow has though. They are standard melee while yarrow is at least hundreds of meters. It's the AP that got yarrow, not danmaku or something. Unless this person has hundreds of meters worth of range this will be an entirely different sort of attack pattern to clover

If clover can't avoid this sort of range then he's just gonna get whooped by this:

• Frenzy Whips: Yarrow casts multiple large plants forward which whip his target over and over again. Usually, he has his plants surround his enemy before using it.

On yarrow's end, i still feel that extrasensory perception will be useful in avoiding clovers own hits, as yarrow is still likely gonna have his plants out at all times (It's his whole thing) which will be especially useful if he decides to keep his distance

Actually, I've noticed that you're bringing in the canon to justify Clover's stats. Truth be told, you can get Clover MUCH higher than 12 tons of TNT via using mainline Undertale After all, both Genocide Frisk and Vengeance Clover fight Asgore, the same guy who Flowey, the flower with Class M Lifting Strength, had no chance against no matter how hard they tried. However, Clover's performance is arguably even more impressive since while Frisk one shot Asgore, Clover also did, but not before doing this to an 80 ATK and 80 DEF opponent's attack (For reference, anything 18 and above is considered at or above 17.76 tons of TNT going by canon logic, (See the Notes section of the page), especially since this is a prequel to Undertale and we're using stuff from canon to justify Clover.), further justifying Clover's Class M. Since Yarrow's best offense is 12 Tons and hypothetical High 7-C scaling for both has to be nerfed to 8-A+ for the sake of the tournament, Clover would now have equal durability to Yarrow's vines while also eclipsing them in strength, leading to a not-so-pleasant ending for the plant man since now, Yarrow can't break through Clover, but Clover can break through Yarrow pretty handily. If I had a suggestion, we should stick to using just Undertale Yellow logic if we want this fight to even be fair.

I don't think this warrants 8-A clover on it's own. Just because you oneshot someone in your universe does not really mean you are a solid tier above them according to vs, because otherwise this would be calc stacking which isn't applicable. This also completely contradicts whats on his profile at the moment.

• This gap is only valid in versus threads; it does not apply to in-universe feats of one-shotting other characters, as using it as such a multiplier for powerscaling purposes is considered Calc Stacking.

So at best clover would scale to this 17 ton feat which isn't a big enough difference to avoid damage at all.

Since Yarrow is baseline, Clover’s LS should be over 5x stronger scaling to Flowey’s 5021 metric tons.

Yarrow is also implied to be above Class M baseline, being comparable to Lilac, although there's no calcs for it. Still, pure LS isn't yarrows only option

 

[Rayfire]

(Don't have much to reply today btw )

 

[SSB64]

It's the AP that got yarrow, not danmaku or something.

And that's the problem. This means that Yarrow isn't all too good at dodging attacks, much like all of the other Undertale Yellow bosses (Except for Zenith Martlet as she can actually think to fly away from Clover to avoid hits and prepare entire flurries of attacks too.) Plus, like I said, given the Undertale logic, he'd have the same problem against Clover, except Clover also has the experience, agility, and ranged combat needed to outlast and eventually overwhelm Yarrow, especially since Yarrow will be on his own here unlike with Nectrus.

Yarrow is also implied to be above Class M baseline, being comparable to Lilac, although there's no calcs for it. Still, pure LS isn't yarrows only option

True, but it's the biggest chance they have against Clover. Without it, even if Yarrow continuously blocks, Yarrow would have to be forced to focus on blocking and not actually attacking Clover. Plus, thanks to the final bosses of each route, Clover can attack during an enemy turn via their SOUL (Which again, unless Yarrow blocks, is going to leave holes in his own.)

So at best clover would scale to this 17 ton feat which isn't a big enough difference to avoid damage at all.

If Clover took literally zero damage to the point where Asgore's trident broke on impact, and that trident, as stated by Undyne, would put him above Undyne's own 17.76 ton calc, it's safe to say that Yarrow's 12 ton level of power is not damaging Clover either. The only advantages Yarrow has over Clover are likely physical Durability, and AOE while being about equal in terms of combat experience (Although Clover has fought two plant based opponent in the past before in Gardener and Flowey while Yarrow has only been shown to fight bees.) Clover seems to take every other category pretty handily. Strength, Agility, Versatility, Amps, Durability Negation via their SOUL, even LS seems to favor Clover by enough to get them out of the vine grasp, especially since, as I said, that Flowey scaling is what Clover broke out of with no physical body, in a weakened state, and at less than Level 15.

At absolute worst, this would be a Technical Win for Clover since they'd constantly be able to force Yarrow to block whilst Yarrow himself can't really do anything to Clover in return. In reality though, Yarrow can't do much to Clover whereas all Clover needs is a single good hit with the SOUL Cannon on Yarrow to end the fight.

because in canon undertale, frisk's stats literally hinge on how determined he is, Including LS, and i highly doubt undertale yellow is any different. They are from the same series basically

By your admittance, this no diff from an attack that vaguely massively upscales from 17.76 Tons would apply to Clover without much issue or contradiction since they basically from the same series (Meaning that Asgore is still the strongest Monster.)

If clover can't avoid this sort of range then he's just gonna get whooped by this:

• Frenzy Whips: Yarrow casts multiple large plants forward which whip his target over and over again. Usually, he has his plants surround his enemy before using it.

This attack is nearly the opposite of new for Clover. They're almost always fighting in small confined spaces when dodging dozens of attacks (Look at the Dalv, Yokai Ceroba, Zenith Martlet, or Axis fights. They're all in pretty small locations,) and yet Clover can still dodge dozens of projectiles. A few vines won't do too much, and even if they did hit, as explained, they're not really doing any damage.

At this point, Yarrow doesn't seem to have any reliable wincons whereas all Clover needs is a single good shot with the SOUL Cannon to seal the deal. At this point, I'm very tempted to vote for Clover due to the MASSIVE need to really bank on Yarrow's AOE to even hope to keep up.

Actually, now that I think about it, the starting distance is 7 meters, meaning that Clover wouldn't hesitate to take the advantage right out of the gate, meaning that Yarrow can't even take full advantage of their most powerful tool.

Yeah..... Clover FTW.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

So at best clover would scale to this 17 ton feat which isn't a big enough difference to avoid damage at all.

Ehh. While they're definitely not giving a x7.5 multiplier over the original values, I do believe that we treat characters who can no-sell attacks that are higher than their opponent's AP to be able to, ya know, do the same in Versus Threads (Check any Senator Armstrong fight for reference).
Especially in cases like Clover, where Asgore, who already massively upscales over Flowey, broke his 8-B trident just by making contact with Clover.

We, however, treat UTY and UT as separate continuities and as such don't really allow cross scaling between the two, at least at the moment.
So Clover is just 12 Tons. Also UT is losing its 8-B rating as we speak lol

 

[Rayfire]

And that's the problem. This means that Yarrow isn't all too good at dodging attacks, much like all of the other Undertale Yellow bosses (Except for Zenith Martlet as she can actually think to fly away from Clover to avoid hits and prepare entire flurries of attacks too.) Plus, like I said, given the Undertale logic, he'd have the same problem against Clover, except Clover also has the experience, agility, and ranged combat needed to outlast and eventually overwhelm Nectrus, especially since Yarrow will be on his own here unlike with Nectrus.

It's not that yarrow can't dodge or defend against attacks at all, Nectar is listed as higher into hypersonic+ (Which i am fairly certain is the intention behind the stats) so obviously yarrow would have trouble avoiding this. Yarrow also doesn't resist sound or shockwaves which don't help him here. Of course bro lost

True, but it's the biggest chance they have against Clover. Without it, even if Yarrow continuously blocks, Yarrow would have to be forced to focus on blocking and not actually attacking Clover. Plus, thanks to the final bosses of each route, Clover can attack during an enemy turn via their SOUL (Which again, unless Yarrow blocks, is going to leave holes in his own.)

He can use plants for attacking and defending simultaneously then if thats a problem. He has many of them

If Clover took literally zero damage to the point where Asgore's trident broke on impact, and that Trident, as stated by Undyne, would put him above Undyne's own 17.76 ton calc, it's safe to say that Yarrow's 12 ton level of power is not damaging Clover either.

Ehh. While they're definitely not giving a x7.5 multiplier over the original values, I do believe that we treat characters who can no-sell attacks that are higher than their opponent's AP to be able to, ya know, do the same in Versus Threads (Check any Senator Armstrong fight for reference).
Especially in cases like Clover, where Asgore, who already massively upscales over Flowey, broke his trident just by making contact with Clover.

Clover can still be harmed by people comparable to asgore though like Martlet who is within the same tier and scoe as him. I think this is a bit inconsistent

 

[Rayfire]

So Clover is just 12 Tons. Also UT is losing its 8-B rating as we speak lol

Alr cool That sux

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Clover can still be harmed by people comparable to asgore though like Martlet who is within the same tier and scoe as him. I think this is a bit inconsistent

That's LV19 Clover. LV20 Clover appears to be considerably stronger.
There's also an argument for Zenith Martlet being >Asgore, due to the whole "Zenith of Monsterkind" thing.

 

[Rayfire]

That's LV19 Clover. LV20 Clover appears to be considerably stronger.
There's also an argument for Zenith Martlet being >Asgore, due to the whole "Zenith of Monsterkind" thing.

Yeah, but still, at the end of the day, we still can't really quantify how strong clover actually is, and i am under the assumption this is why he is baseline which is what has been listed on his profile.

We, however, treat UTY and UT as separate continuities and as such don't really allow cross scaling between the two, at least at the moment.

This also means that the asgore we see here is entirely different from the canon one, isn't it? If this is true then getting clover above baseline 8-B seems even more iffy to me especially when, again, this is what he was thrown into the tourney as, not 17 tons lol

That sucks tho, i only know the canon version

 

[SSB64]

We, however, treat UTY and UT as separate continuities and as such don't really allow cross scaling between the two, at least at the moment.
So Clover is just 12 Tons. Also UT is losing its 8-B rating as we speak lol

Right. Which means that Yarrow has a new issue in that arguments such as trying to use canon to justify UTY doesn't exactly work anymore. I had planned for a situation such as this. Even then, as I said, Clover has the Silver Scarf equipment, Glass Shards ammo, healing items, and their own ability during their turn to heal health back up by about a quarter, still leaving Clover with more than enough longevity to outlast Yarrow's Stamina so Clover can land that killing blow. Or you know. Clover could just shoot Yarrow the moment he gets aggressive.

It's not that yarrow can't dodge or defend against attacks at all, Nectar is listed as higher into hypersonic+ (Which i am fairly certain is the intention behind the stats) so obviously yarrow would have trouble avoiding this. Yarrow also doesn't resist sound or shockwaves which don't help him here. Of course bro lost

Luckily for Clover, they have ways to replicate the relativity in speed between Nectrus and Yarrow (Coffee Bean Ammo + Sea Tea + Golden Coffee.) Plus, like I said, Yarrow isn't the best at combat by himself, especially since Clover is quite close to him to start.

That's LV19 Clover. LV20 Clover appears to be considerably stronger.
There's also an argument for Zenith Martlet being >Asgore, due to the whole "Zenith of Monsterkind" thing.

Thank you.

Also, I'd have to disagree. Since UTY likes to use stats to gauge a character's power, Zenith Martlets sits at 25 ATK and 40 DEF. Meanwhile, the best reference we have for Asgore is the canon, where he has 80 ATK and 80 DEF. Again. I know that mainline Undertale stuff doesn't really apply like I said, but it's still worth noting the comparison.l between the two of them. Not to mention, I personally have a headcanon that Zenith Martlet is a bit of a joke name as zenith means "The high point", literally meaning she is, directionally speaking, above everyone because she's..... Well, a bird, and even flies upwards off of the screen during her fight to dodge attacks.

Yeah, but still, at the end of the day, we still can't really quantify how strong clover actually is, and i am under the assumption this is why he is baseline which is what has been listed on his profile.

I think it's fair to say that Zenith Martlet and Asgore are at least more than twice as powerful as a basic Dunebud, who is High 8-C+.

He can use plants for attacking and defending simultaneously then if thats a problem. He has many of them

When is there an instance of Yarrow being able to focus on attacking and defending at the same time? I don't recall anything like that.

 

[Rayfire]

When is there an instance of Yarrow being able to focus on attacking and defending at the same time? I don't recall anything like that.

I have almost nothing to work with on his profile lol, but if he can control all of them simultaneously, why not a mix of offense and defense? He's already demonstrated both capabilities with them.

Right. Which means that Yarrow has a new issue in that arguments such as trying to use canon to justify UTY doesn't exactly work anymore. I had planned for a situation such as this. Even then, as I said, Clover has the Silver Scarf equipment, Glass Shards ammo, healing items, and their own ability during their turn to heal health back up by about a quarter, still leaving Clover with more than enough longevity to outlast Yarrow's Stamina so Clover can land that killing blow. Or you know. Clover could just shoot Yarrow the moment he gets aggressive.

This doesn't actually work in clovers favor lol, 8-B is only a "Possibly" rating for clover since UTY needs to rely on it's own feats for this as it's a seperate canon. The High 8-C feat in UTY is barely half of Baseline 8-B (6.72 Tons) and i feel like scaling the check stats would fall under Game Mechanics as they usually aren't actually indicative of, or contradict, AP feats unless undertale yellow gets a pass for it that i don't know about, same reason why one-shotting someone in canon doesn't automatically make you 7.5x stronger as the page said.

In any case, Clover is listed as 12 tons here and eden agrees with me, so yarrow should still be able to harm him if he hits him either way

Luckily for Clover, they have ways to replicate the relativity in speed between Nectrus and Yarrow (Coffee Bean Ammo + Sea Tea + Golden Coffee.) Plus, like I said, Yarrow isn't the best at combat by himself, especially since Clover is quite close to him to start.

Clover can go from Transonic to Supersonic with all of these buffs according to the speed section of his profile, which only makes him about... 1.22x faster without any calcs i can see for genocide by taking the baseline for supersonic and dividing it by the baseline for transonic. Even when i maxed out the numbers, This is nowhere near enough to blitz, and the people who did the calcs for UTY agree with me It will help clover obviously, but not by very much.

He has dash obviously, but like in the video i sent he can still get hit a lot if he's not careful, even if he spams it, and it's cooldown and very short usage time doesn't help

Even when this dude for example was basically spamming dash, clovers soul was still stuck in flowey's vines at the end of this short which seem to do the same thing as yarrow's plants. It doesn't work when clover is trapped in a fight situation.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Actually looking into it, the scaling chain Clover has over 12 Tons is actually insane.

8-B starts in UTY with Pacifist Ceroba, due to her being completely unaffected by any of Pacifist Clover's shots. This Ceroba sits at 13 ATK and 15 DEF. THREAT LEVEL_10 Axis, the one you fight in Genocide, has the same DEF stat as Ceroba. A LV12 Clover critically injured this Axis in just three shots and is even confident that a single shot would’ve done the job. However in the rematch, thanks to his “trashcan lid” shield, Axis is completely impervious to all of LV12 Clover’s attacks.

This shifts once Axis confesses to "neutralizing" a human. Clover jumps to LV15 and, with a single Big Shot, breaks through the previously impervious shield, and they kept on getting even stronger, reaching LV19. At this level, Clover’s roughly on par with Zenith Martlet (ATK 25, DEF 40), but that still puts them both well below Asgore, with an ATK and DEF value of 80 (Not a fan of placing Asgore above Martlet but that's what's currently accepted on Clover's profile, sooo).

Then, LV20 Clover comes in, no-sells a serious Asgore, his trident shattering on impact, and obliterates him with a single beam.

TL;DR:

LV20 Clover >>> Asgore > Zenith Martlet ≈ LV19 Clover > LV15 Clover >>> Trashcan Lid >>> LV12 Clover >> THREAT LEVEL_10 Axis ≈ Pacifist Ceroba = 12 Tons

> = Defeated in a fight/Just vaguely stronger
>> = Stomps
>>> = One-shots

 

[Rayfire]

Actually looking into it, the scaling chain Clover has over 12 Tons is actually insane.

8-B starts in UTY with Pacifist Ceroba, due to her being completely unaffected by any of Pacifist Clover's shots. This Ceroba sits at 13 ATK and 15 DEF. THREAT LEVEL_10 Axis, the one you fight in Genocide, has the same DEF stat as Ceroba. A LV12 Clover critically injured this Axis in just three shots and is even confident that a single shot would’ve done the job. However in the rematch, thanks to his “trashcan lid” shield, Axis is completely impervious to all of LV12 Clover’s attacks.

This shifts once Axis confesses to "neutralizing" a human. Clover jumps to LV15 and, with a single Big Shot, breaks through the previously impervious shield, and they kept on getting even stronger, reaching LV19. At this level, Clover’s roughly on par with Zenith Martlet (ATK 25, DEF 40), but that still puts them both well below Asgore, with an ATK and DEF value of 80 (Not a fan of placing Asgore above Martlet but that's what's currently accepted on Clover's profile, sooo).

Then, LV20 Clover comes in, no-sells a serious Asgore, his trident shattering on impact, and obliterates him with a single beam.

TL;DR:

Bruh why is none of this mentioned on his profile or on his submission...

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Bruh why is none of this mentioned on his profile or on his submission...

It is technically mentioned on their profile (Pacifist Clover is 8-B and Genocide Clover is leagues beyond that, and LV20 Clover is beyond even that).
Really the biggest problem with the profile right now is that Clover is the only UTY character with a profile at the moment, so it makes their scaling a bit confusing.

Ig a more accurate submission would've said "Upscales over 12 Tons," but we sorta just focused on the calc values themselves there more than anything.

 

[SSB64]

I have almost nothing to work with on his profile lol, but if he can control all of them simultaneously, why not a mix of offense and defense? He's already demonstrated both capabilities with them.

Just because they can show capabilities of offense and defense doesn't mean they can do both effectively at the same time. Think like Tatsumaki from mainline OPM. Sure she's skilled at both offense and defense, but she can only do one at a time despite how skilled at both she is. Without feats or showings, we cannot say that Yarrow can do both at the same time either. If Yarrow tries to attack Clover, he leaves himself open, and by defending, he gives Clover time to regenerate a good amount of the damage that Yarrow dealt which would be bad since as I've said before, Yarrow has no healing factor, items, or equipment to heal them if Clover does get off weaker shots, and with no sufficient Supernatural Willpower from what I know of, Yarrow is still going to be heard pressed to put Clover down, even if Yarrow can damage them.

Actually looking into it, the scaling chain Clover has over 12 Tons is actually insane.

8-B starts in UTY with Pacifist Ceroba, due to her being completely unaffected by any of Pacifist Clover's shots. This Ceroba sits at 13 ATK and 15 DEF. THREAT LEVEL_10 Axis, the one you fight in Genocide, has the same DEF stat as Ceroba. A LV12 Clover critically injured this Axis in just three shots and is even confident that a single shot would’ve done the job. However in the rematch, thanks to his “trashcan lid” shield, Axis is completely impervious to all of LV12 Clover’s attacks.

This shifts once Axis confesses to "neutralizing" a human. Clover jumps to LV15 and, with a single Big Shot, breaks through the previously impervious shield, and they kept on getting even stronger, reaching LV19. At this level, Clover’s roughly on par with Zenith Martlet (ATK 25, DEF 40), but that still puts them both well below Asgore, with an ATK and DEF value of 80 (Not a fan of placing Asgore above Martlet but that's what's currently accepted on Clover's profile, sooo).

Then, LV20 Clover comes in, no-sells a serious Asgore, his trident shattering on impact, and obliterates him with a single beam.

TL;DR:

Oh gosh. That's..... actually kind of nuts.

(Also, Shayy clip. Based.)

It is technically mentioned on their profile (Pacifist Clover is 8-B and Genocide Clover is leagues beyond that, and LV20 Clover is beyond even that).
Really the biggest problem with the profile right now is that Clover is the only UTY character with a profile at the moment, so it makes their scaling a bit confusing.

Ig a more accurate submission would've said "Upscales over 12 Tons," but we sorta just focused on the calc values themselves there more than anything.

Thank you.

In any case, Clover is listed as 12 tons here and eden agrees with me, so yarrow should still be able to harm him if he hits him either way

I've already addressed this part in the first section of this reply.

Hm. So I suppose with this recent development, Clover AP wise really is at least a good league above Yarrow AP wise by a vague, but ridiculous degree since Yarrow would be comparable to Pacifist Ceroba or THREAT LEVEL_10 Axis at an AP standpoint.

 

[Rayfire]

Just because they can show capabilities of offense and defense doesn't mean they can do both effectively at the same time. Think like Tatsumaki from mainline OPM. Sure she's skilled at both offense and defense, but she can only do one at a time despite how skilled at both she is. Without feats or showings, we cannot say that Yarrow can do both at the same time either. If Yarrow tries to attack Clover, he leaves himself open, and by defending, he gives Clover time to regenerate a good amount of the damage that Yarrow dealt which would be bad since as I've said before, Yarrow has no healing factor, items, or equipment to heal them if Clover does get off weaker shots, and with no sufficient Supernatural Willpower from what I know of, Yarrow is still going to be heard pressed to put Clover down, even if Yarrow can damage them.

There isn't anything stopping tatsumaki from also using forcefields or attack reflection too though..

The difference is that yarrow can control multiple giant plants simultaneously in whatever way he likes. I don't think that excludes this option, and even then i don't think it's that hard for yarrow to just suddenly switch if he has to. He's not completely helpless if someone gets around his plants.

Hm. So I suppose with this recent development, Clover AP wise really is at least a good league above Yarrow AP wise by a vague, but ridiculous degree since Yarrow would be comparable to Pacifist Ceroba or THREAT LEVEL_10 Axis at an AP standpoint.

I would probably wait for Exsenna's stance on this, clover was submitted as baseline 8-B to begin with so changing it mid-tourney would kinda contradict the statistic he was originally said to be. That's like adding abilities mid-tourney (Not that this is a bad thing, but i definitely think this should have been brought up way earlier lol)

If he does decide it is allowed then im not sure there's much that yarrow could do (His profile is almost empty to begin with, so i have very little to work with )

 

[SSB64]

clover was submitted as baseline 8-B to begin with so changing it mid-tourney would kinda contradict the statistic he was originally said to be.

I clarified that Clover would upscale several points above baseline 8-B before the Tourney started, so this wouldn't exactly contradict anything. Plus, this isn't exactly adding any new feats since they did exist, but there was a lack of clarification prior to the Tourney starting.

If he does decide it is allowed then im not sure there's much that yarrow could do (His profile is almost empty to begin with, so i have very little to work with

Even if it isn't allowed, I've already explained how Yarrow would still be lacking in almost every other category. It would likely still be a Clover W, just a harder one for Clover to accomplish since again, you really have to bank on Yarrow's AOE hard-carrying him through the whole fight, which already isn't a help given that Clover will be within shooting range of him right from the get go.

 

[Rayfire]

I clarified that Clover would upscale several points above baseline 8-B before the Tourney started, so this wouldn't exactly contradict anything. Plus, this isn't exactly adding any new feats since they did exist, but there was a lack of clarification.

He was still listed as 12 tons... Maybe it's because i wasn't exactly paying attention to that part on the tourney but clovers 8-B rating isn't even definite as i've mentioned earlier, it's a "possibly" rating. It's used here obviously, but it's another reason why i think putting him above baseline is a bit disingenious unless senna is actually fully aware of this and for some reason didn't put "Likely higher"

 

[SSB64]

unless senna is actually fully aware of this and for some reason didn't put "Likely higher"

They did the same thing with my other character, Lucy, even though I'm pretty sure I explained the same thing with her as I did with Clover, so.....

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

cough cough

 

[MintyBoi1]

I’m feeling obligated to vote for Yarrow. Clover’s arguments for vastly upscaling seem high in contention, especially Class M which is just a possibly rating. Not only that, they will have a much harder time landing hits with Yarrow’s plants to protect him and extrasensory perception. Granted they have counters like fire and ice, but they’re limited and Yarrow has a lot of plants. I noticed there’s a note saying Yarrow gets stronger in areas with lots of plants and Central Park has plenty of trees. So even if Clover upscales 12 tons, Yarrow likely does as well. And the lack of a Class M calc also leaves the possibility of better LS in the future given Lilac who Yarrow’s comparable to twisted many buildings easily which could honestly be higher in tier I’m guessing. And Clover outlasting is a decent argument, but there’s good chances they get incapped by vines knocking them out or grabbing them before then since he’s 5x at best, which while strong, likely isn’t enough to overwhelm multiple plants at once. Most of Clover’s healing options are food which isn’t very practical against someone controlling the terrain.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Clover is Class M here, it's intrinsically linked to their "Possibly 8-B" stats (It's literally the same calc), you can't have one and not the other.
And no, just being vaguely stronger in grassy terrains isn't remotely comparable to the not one, not two, but three whole one-shots Clover has over Yarrow's value.
Restraining Clover won't even work since their SOUL can move independently from their body and its beams can completely incinerate Yarrow's plants.

 

[Rayfire]

And no, just being vaguely stronger in grassy terrains isn't remotely comparable to the not one, not two, but three whole one-shots Clover has over Yarrow's value.

This can’t be used to upscale clover. That’s calc stacking lol

Restraining Clover won't even work since their SOUL can move independently from their body and the beams it shoots will completely incinerate Yarrow's plants.

This also isn’t yarrows only option. He has plenty of nature to work with around him so he can basically attack clover omnidirectionally, clovers beams also won’t do much on the offensive since yarrows extrasensory perception is gonna be a big help for dodging his attacks.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

This can’t be used to upscale clover. That’s calc stacking lol

What? No? Applying a x7.5 three times over Clover's value would be calc stacking. Saying Clover would barely take damage from the guy who'd get one-shot twice over by someone Clover themself can one-shot isn't. This even seems to be agreed upon by staff.

This also isn’t yarrows only option. He has plenty of nature to work with around him so he can basically attack clover omnidirectionally, clovers beams also won’t do much on the offensive since yarrows extrasensory perception is gonna be a big help for dodging his attacks.

These beams can move much faster than Clover, even with the Speed Points and Dash, which are already accepted as being x3.69 Clover's combat speed.

 

[MintyBoi1]

Clover is Class M here, it's intrinsically linked to their "Possibly 8-B" stats (It's literally the same calc), you can't have one and not the other.
And no, just being vaguely stronger in grassy terrains isn't remotely comparable to the not one, not two, but three whole one-shots Clover has over Yarrow's value.
Restraining Clover won't even work since their SOUL can move independently from their body and its beams can completely incinerate Yarrow's plants.

Maybe, but Steven Universe also has a chain of one shots, yet the characters just upscale from a certain value. And while I think Clover could take on plenty of Yarrow’s plants, in this environment there should be way too many for Clover to completely exhaust Yarrow’s resources before being beaten.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Maybe, but Steven Universe also has a chain of one shots, yet the characters just upscale from a certain value.

The one chain I found seems to be dubious at best (Puts Pearl as a one-shot over Amethyst despite the fact they're basically equal and puts Garnet as another one-shot on top of that for poofing Peridot, who only has "Possibly High 7-C" in her durability and even then it was just one punch from Pearl).
Plus, I do believe everytime a SU went against someone below their value, they AP stomped anyway.

And while I think Clover could take on plenty of Yarrow’s plants, in this environment there should be way too many for Clover to completely exhaust Yarrow’s resources before being beaten.

This point's sorta moot when you consider the fact that Clover has Infinite Heals with Endure, virtually infinite ammo, and can repeatedly become invincible with Dash.

 

[Rayfire]

These beams can move much faster than Clover, even with the Speed Points and Dash, which are already accepted as being x3.69 Clover's combat speed.

Up close that could be an issue, but yarrow can attack from hundreds of metres away with his plants, so avoiding something that’s 4x faster than you can move at that sort of distance wouldn’t be too big a problem. Yarrow doesn’t have to get in close to clover at all.

This point's sorta moot when you consider the fact that Clover has Infinite Heals with Endure and virtually infinite ammo.

If yarrow can attack clover omnidirectionally with multiple plants with the AoE (hundreds of metres it seems) they have, then considering how much plants yarrow has to work with then this won’t be applicable if bro starts wombo comboing him. None of his infinite heals actually heal him to full health, and this is also a turn spent on healing rather than stopping yarrow’s plants or yarrow himself.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Up close that could be an issue, but yarrow can attack from hundreds of metres away with his plants, so avoiding something that’s 4x faster than you can move at that sort of distance wouldn’t be too big a problem. Yarrow doesn’t have to get in close to clover at all.

Clover can most likely force the fight into close-quarters. Their superior AP, almost x5 superior LS, multiple speed amps, Invulnerability with Dash and their Justice Beam having its own hefty AoE means Clover can probably just brute force their way to Yarrow. Plus, you have to consider that they start 7 meters apart.

None of his infinite heals actually heal him to full health, and this is also a turn spent on healing rather than stopping yarrow’s plants or yarrow himself.

It not being a full heal only really becomes an issue if Yarrow's able to deal major damage to Clover, which I doubt would be the case.
Plus, Clover's Yellow Mode (The small blasts and the big Justice Beam) allows them to attack during the enemies turn, so Clover is able to attack and heal at the same time.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Also, I really doubt Yarrow being able to sense enemy movements will help much when it comes to predicting Clover's SOUL, it isn't really physical per-say.

 

[MintyBoi1]

Could Yarrow use his plants to carry him out of range? It’d make sense if he tried getting distance where Clover can’t follow atop buildings to counteract the physicals. And he would still be able to use the plants on the ground.

 

[Rayfire]

Clover can most likely force the fight into close-quarters. Their superior AP, almost x5 superior LS, multiple speed amps, Invulnerability with Dash and their Justice Beam having its own hefty AoE means Clover can probably just brute force their way to Yarrow. Plus, you have to consider that they start 7 meters apart.

There isn’t anything stopping him from gaining that distance though. Plus yarrow’s extrasensory perception, again, can let him know if clover is trying to intercept him while doing this.

The LS advantage is also questionable as yarrow is able to hold down nectrus consistently, who could hoist up multiple city buildings which is definitely a fair degree above Class M as well, so yarrow is the bare minimum comparable to him So by your current logic, yarrow should be at least a few times above baseline Class M which means the gap is closed significantly.

Feats:

1. Was capable of holding down Nectrus more than once

I still feel a bit iffy about being significantly into 8-B, considering it’s a “possibly” rating (although he is meant to be this tier here obvs) and the highest calc I can actually find for UTY is High 8-C. The scaling chain makes sense but the value is still unquantifiable at the end of the day, and again, clover is still listed as baseline here. You’ve said this yourself.

We, however, treat UTY and UT as separate continuities and as such don't really allow cross scaling between the two, at least at the moment.
So Clover is just 12 Tons.

I’ve discussed earlier that the speed amps aren’t really all that big to make much of a difference either.

Clover can go from Transonic to Supersonic with all of these buffs according to the speed section of his profile, which only makes him about... 1.22x faster without any calcs i can see for genocide by taking the baseline for supersonic and dividing it by the baseline for transonic. Even when i maxed out the numbers, This is nowhere near enough to blitz, and the people who did the calcs for UTY agree with me It will help clover obviously, but not by very much.

Maybe, but the invincibility and speed amp is so short that even when this guy was spamming it, it was hardly useful in dodging flowey’s attacks. Clover needs to be careful in order to take advantage of it.

Can clover spam justice beam though? Even then he can only make one of them, and yarrow can control multiple giant plants at a time. All this will do is delay the inevitable.