Quick Makima CRT

[GunshyFever]

Introduction​

Currently, the ability Makima used on the Darkness Devil was accepted as Biological Manipulation, however upon recent discoveries, it should be separately listed as having limited regeneration negation.

Explanation​

To begin with, we need to establish what the Darkness Devil is. Fortunately, there’s an entire page dedicated to this. He is a Primal Fear, a category of devils that likely originated when humans first came into existence. These devils embody the most instinctual fears ingrained in the human psyche. Primal Fears have been described as "transcendent" compared to ordinary devils and due to their immense power, they have never experienced death.

So far in the series, three Primal Fears have been introduced: Darkness, Falling and Aging. Narratively, it's been shown that these devils do not require blood to regenerate, a key plot point emphasized when the Aging Devil regenerates completely after being slaughtered by Pochita, stating that it wasn't enough to kill him.

In case you didn’t know, all devils are born from a "name" concept. These concepts can range from highly tangible (like guns and spiders) to highly abstract (like control and violence). According to their profiles, each devil gains abilities tied to their respective concept, with power scaling based on how much the concept is feared.

Interestingly, the Falling Devil does not have a clear conceptual regeneration tied directly to her name. This has led to the consensus that the Aging Devil’s nature and abilities may represent a shared trait among all Primal Fears.

Now that we’ve covered their ability to regenerate without the need for blood, let's focus specifically on the Darkness Devil.

The character Santa Claus formed a contract with the Darkness Devil, gaining the power to kill Makima in exchange for Chainsaw Man’s heart. After receiving a fragment of the Darkness Devil’s flesh, Santa Claus transformed into a significantly more powerful devil. With this new power, she could instantly heal wounds within darkness and became invulnerable, unable to be harmed while surrounded by darkness, except by attacks that generate light.

Given that even a fragment of the Darkness Devil’s flesh grants such powerful regeneration and invulnerability, we can infer that the Darkness Devil himself possesses layered regeneration, both automatic and enhanced when within darkness, along with invulnerability under the same condition.

Scaling​

Now, this is where the scaling comes into play.

First, I want to establish that upon the Darkness Devil's arrival, he engulfs the surrounding area in complete darkness, snuffing out all sources of light within it.

In this sequence, Makima points at the Darkness Devil and performs a bodily motion, specifically, the twitch of a finger, which is converted into an invisible vector of force anchored to her target; the Darkness Devil. The energy bypasses the Darkness Devil’s skin, forcefield and attack reflection, seemingly materializing at specific anatomical points and detonating outward.

This results in blood erupting from the various mouths of the Darkness Devil, causing him to slouch over in a pool of blood, incapable of fighting back for several seconds. Considering his automatic and instantaneous regeneration within darkness, it appears that Makima’s ability may have temporarily nullified or disrupted this regeneration, creating a momentary lapse before it resumed.

Therefore, this should be considered a subcategory of Makima’s biological manipulation, specifically classified as Limited Regeneration and Invulnerability Negation. Which would look something like this on her profile.

That's all
Agree: (0:7) @CastoriceTheFifth, @Robo432343, @ElajRuengies @GodEarh206, @Acertainbcplayer, @Bruh (disagrees with invulnerability negation), @Machmatej

Disagree: (1:3) @Razor, @Anonymous_Learner, @FinePoint, @Mommyleona

Neutral: (0:0)

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Agree

 

[Robo432343]

agree

 

[ElajRuengies]

Agree (obviously, considering that I pointed part of this out)

 

[GodEarh206]

Agree

 

[Jaynic1]

I think razor's comment here is relevant

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Deku
Agree

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Deku
Agree

Deku FRA

 

[GodEarh206]

Deku FRA

Nah, Goku Solos

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

How many votes does this need

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

How many votes does this need

2 mod votes, we're cosmetics

 

[Bruh]

Agree on Limited Regen Negation (High-Mid), neutral on layered, disagree on Invulnerability due to lacking feats on Santa Claus (arent i just cosmetics as well?)

 

[Razor]

Non staff votes aren't as significant as staff votes but I think they still matter. But what a non staff member can contribute to CRT is mainly discussion.

Agree on Limited Regen Negation (High-Mid), neutral on layered, disagree on Invulnerability due to lacking feats on Santa Claus (arent i just cosmetics as well?)

That being said, I disagree with both regen negation and high mid.

The logic for giving this limited regeneration negation is the fact that Santa claus has showcased regeneration that should have healed the injuries that Makima's attack on the darkness devil caused, but the thing is, she hasn't.

Let's clarify how much Makima's attack really "nullified" The darkness devil's regeneration.

Here we see a total of 2 panels showcasing the darkness devil that hasn't regenerated yet, but these 2 panels happen right after one another, meaning there is no discernible timeframe from when Darkness devil did regenerate. After these two panels we don't see the devil as Makima walk towards another person, in the very next panel we see of the darkness devil, he is in pristine condition, having fully healed from Makima's attacks.

This means that the timeframe in which the darkness devil hasn't regenerated isn't exactly quantifiable but we can surmise that he healed in a very short amount of time, since the two panels showing him not regenerating was right after the other, and he could've regenerated at any point during when he wasn't shown on panel.

Next is santa claus having "immediate" regeneration. This is not the case, there has been many instances of santa claus not regenerating instantly after being pierced by attacks, these attacks happened in darkened alleyways, just as her feat in the OP which gunshy uses to prove she heals instantly,

Here's proof that santa got attacked in darkness (meaning her ability activated);

Furthermore her feat of regenerating "instantly" is actually not shown, the link is on gunshy's original post if you see, the way its panelled is that santa gets attacked, a cloud of smoke appear, making santa disappear and when the cloud dissipates shes regenerated instantly. My point being that her instant regeneration is dubious at best, and iss likely just a hyperbole. Her statement saying that her wounds heal in the blink of an eye could mean that her wounds heal very fast, not actually instantly, but thats not my only point, I have more.

In darkness' profile its noted that he likely has regeneration on par with the falling devil's avatars, here is the falling devil's regeneration at play, and here we see many interesting things.

Most notably, Falling's body does not immediately regenerate, we literally see her guts sprawled all over the ground numerous times and her body being severed for prolonged periods of time.

Now this could only mean one of either two things. 1- Falling devil's regeneration isn't instant or 2- Falling devil's regeneration isn't automatic but instead voluntary, which means she chooses when to regenerate.

Now, whichever interpretation you take of these two, it contradicts what has been said in this CRT. We've already established that the primals regen factor shouldn't be far off. If its option number 1 then Makima doesn't have regeneration negation, the only reason the darkness devil didn't regenerate is because primal's regen simply isn't that first, or 2. Primal devil's regen is voluntary and not automatic. In which case this could easily be the reason why the darkness devil didn't regenerate immediately, and even then, he arguably did based on the paneling.

My last argument is that Makima having regeneration negation makes no sense story wise, specifically in her fight against the chainsaw devil wherein she didn't use this ability even once (In fact, she's never used this ability at all despite the fact that nullifying devil's regen is a very useful perk to have). Why would she instead opt for a bang that Pochita just inevitably regenerated from instead of using this move which could allegedly hamper a primal's regeneration factor, if it was able to do that, it might just be able to outright nullify the regeneration of a lesser devil than that of a primal (Pochita in this case). So her being able to negate regeneration doesn't align with the story really well.

Overally I disagree with the premise of the CRT because there is insufficient proof that the reason the darkness devil didn't instantly regenerated is because of a factor with makima's attacks instead of other factors surrounding the primal devil's regeneration factor, on top of this the timeline wherein the darkness devil didn't regenerate is dubious. Even if you say santa did regenerate instantly her injuries were nowhere near as severe as the darkness devil's, which could play a role. The falling devil however did receive similar damage and she didnt regenerate instantly. Lastly makima having regeneration negation is inconsistent with the story.

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

disagree fra

 

[GunshyFever]

Alright let's break this down.

The logic for giving this limited regeneration negation is the fact that Santa claus has showcased regeneration that should have healed the injuries that Makima's attack on the darkness devil caused, but the thing is, she hasn't.

Let's clarify how much Makima's attack really "nullified" The darkness devil's regeneration.

Here we see a total of 2 panels showcasing the darkness devil that hasn't regenerated yet, but these 2 panels happen right after one another, meaning there is no discernible timeframe from when Darkness devil did regenerate. After these two panels we don't see the devil as Makima walk towards another person, in the very next panel we see of the darkness devil, he is in pristine condition, having fully healed from Makima's attacks.

This means that the timeframe in which the darkness devil hasn't regenerated isn't exactly quantifiable but we can surmise that he healed in a very short amount of time, since the two panels showing him not regenerating was right after the other, and he could've regenerated at any point during when he wasn't shown on panel.

This does not discredit the OP.

it appears that Makima’s ability may have temporarily nullified or disrupted this regeneration, creating a momentary lapse before it resumed.​

The entire point is that, when shielded by darkness, like shown with Santa Claus, her wounds regenerate instantly once they are covered by this darkness. See here:

The character Santa Claus formed a contract with the Darkness Devil, gaining the power to kill Makima in exchange for Chainsaw Man’s heart. After receiving a fragment of the Darkness Devil’s flesh, Santa Claus transformed into a significantly more powerful devil. With this new power, she could instantly heal wounds within darkness

As stated, this is the power of a fragment of the Darkness Devil's flesh, a mere fragment of his power. The Darkness devil, especially in this scenario, should not have been hindered, considering Santa's instantaneous regeneration.

Take for example, her night state: initially when Denji sets himself on fire to harm her, it has no effect. She continues to regenerate instantly, seeing Denji’s efforts as futile. However, Denji notes that the more he pursues Santa, the more her regeneration slows due to her exposure to the light of his bodily flames.

At this point in the narrative, Santa Claus and by extension the Darkness Devil, is clearly shown to regenerate instantly within darkness. Yet in the panels following Makima taking just a few steps toward Tolka’s corpse (seemingly about two steps), we see hindrances in his regeneration. This is despite us being previously shown even faster regeneration from an insignificant speck of his flesh.

Even if the timeframe in which the regeneration is halted is brief, it is still suppressed for a limited period. Based on the scene, it appears that he relied on his innate automatic form of regeneration, suggesting that his darkness based regeneration was not functioning. Since he does not regenerate instantly, this can viably be considered a form of regeneration negation.

Next is santa claus having "immediate" regeneration. This is not the case, there has been many instances of santa claus not regenerating instantly after being pierced by attacks, these attacks happened in darkened alleyways, just as her feat in the OP which gunshy uses to prove she heals instantly,

Here's proof that santa got attacked in darkness (meaning her ability activated);

If Santa were completely surrounded by darkness, she would have entered her "night" state. Notice how you mention that she's in a darkened alleyway, she's actually in a building that has windows and even the hole she punched through the floor lets in some light. Despite this, the darkness present in the area was still tending to her wounds. When she is truly surrounded by complete darkness, as I showed above, she instantly regenerates even while being pursued by the light from Denji's flames, which only reinforces the overpowered nature of her ability. The scan I used shows her regenerating inside the building, specifically because that's where she explains the ability herself, supporting the narrative implication.

In darkness' profile its noted that he likely has regeneration on par with the falling devil's avatars, here is the falling devil's regeneration at play, and here we see many interesting things.

Most notably, Falling's body does not immediately regenerate, we literally see her guts sprawled all over the ground numerous times and her body being severed for prolonged periods of time.

Now this could only mean one of either two things. 1- Falling devil's regeneration isn't instant or 2- Falling devil's regeneration isn't automatic but instead voluntary, which means she chooses when to regenerate.

Now, whichever interpretation you take of these two, it contradicts what has been said in this CRT. We've already established that the primals regen factor shouldn't be far off. If its option number 1 then Makima doesn't have regeneration negation, the only reason the darkness devil didn't regenerate is because primal's regen simply isn't that first, or 2. Primal devil's regen is voluntary and not automatic. In which case this could easily be the reason why the darkness devil didn't regenerate immediately, and even then, he arguably did based on the paneling.

The automatic assumption is that it would be automatic because we don't really have any proof that it's voluntary. I don't quite understand this section because it doesn't contradict anything I said. The only valid point I'm seeing here, and please feel free to clarify what you're trying to get across, is that you're essentially just restating your original point, which we've already discussed. However, I do agree that it should be stated that Primal Regen is automatic.

My last argument is that Makima having regeneration negation makes no sense story wise, specifically in her fight against the chainsaw devil wherein she didn't use this ability even once (In fact, she's never used this ability at all despite the fact that nullifying devil's regen is a very useful perk to have). Why would she instead opt for a bang that Pochita just inevitably regenerated from instead of using this move which could allegedly hamper a primal's regeneration factor, if it was able to do that, it might just be able to outright nullify the regeneration of a lesser devil than that of a primal (Pochita in this case). So her being able to negate regeneration doesn't align with the story really well.

Overally I disagree with the premise of the CRT because there is insufficient proof that the reason the darkness devil didn't instantly regenerated is because of a factor with makima's attacks instead of other factors surrounding the primal devil's regeneration factor, on top of this the timeline wherein the darkness devil didn't regenerate is dubious. Even if you say santa did regenerate instantly her injuries were nowhere near as severe as the darkness devil's, which could play a role. The falling devil however did receive similar damage and she didnt regenerate instantly. Lastly makima having regeneration negation is inconsistent with the ststory.

While I understand the premise, it doesn't hold much weight because the regeneration negation is limited and, at best periodic. You could argue that beings like Pochita exhibit resistance to such negation, as his regeneration is narratively portrayed as extremely potent, capable of restoring his boliology from trees, healing from just a heart and even creating clones. If Makima didn’t find it useful to use regeneration negation against him, that could indicate a possible resistance to it on his profile.

Alternatively, it’s also possible that Makima simply didn’t need to resort to regen negation, considering she had multiple other options that were supposedly just as effective. Ultimately, her plan was to depower him and that approach worked. I can’t stress enough that Makima rarely had any real opportunities to attack him directly only once and when she did, she used that chance to launch him into space.

Makima cannot perceive Pochita, he is a blitz teir above her reactions.

 

[Bruh]

Whether Makima has regeneration negation or not is up to yall to debate but im not feeling giving her layered when Darkness Devil doesnt have any baseline resistance to Regeneration negation to begin with, and from what ive seen, negating an abiity that is just a "better" version of another ability without any feats doesnt usually warrant layers. Also disagree on Invul negation due to the complete lack of Invul feats from Santa Claus (aside from a dubious statement) who Darkness scale to.

 

[GunshyFever]

Yeah, I was skeptical about giving her layered resistance, but because of Razors explanation I re-thought it and I'll remove it.

 

[Razor]

Alright let's break this down.

This does not discredit the OP.

The entire point is that, when shielded by darkness, like shown with Santa Claus, her wounds regenerate instantly once they are covered by this darkness. See here:

As stated, this is the power of a fragment of the Darkness Devil's flesh, a mere fragment of his power. The Darkness devil, especially in this scenario, should not have been hindered, considering Santa's instantaneous regeneration.

Take for example, her night state: initially when Denji sets himself on fire to harm her, it has no effect. She continues to regenerate instantly, seeing Denji’s efforts as futile. However, Denji notes that the more he pursues Santa, the more her regeneration slows due to her exposure to the light of his bodily flames.

At this point in the narrative, Santa Claus and by extension the Darkness Devil, is clearly shown to regenerate instantly within darkness. Yet in the panels following Makima taking just a few steps toward Tolka’s corpse (seemingly about two steps), we see hindrances in his regeneration. This is despite us being previously shown even faster regeneration from an insignificant speck of his flesh.

Even if the timeframe in which the regeneration is halted is brief, it is still suppressed for a limited period. Based on the scene, it appears that he relied on his innate automatic form of regeneration, suggesting that his darkness based regeneration was not functioning. Since he does not regenerate instantly, this can viably be considered a form of regeneration negation.

If Santa were completely surrounded by darkness, she would have entered her "night" state. Notice how you mention that she's in a darkened alleyway, she's actually in a building that has windows and even the hole she punched through the floor lets in some light. Despite this, the darkness present in the area was still tending to her wounds. When she is truly surrounded by complete darkness, as I showed above, she instantly regenerates even while being pursued by the light from Denji's flames, which only reinforces the overpowered nature of her ability. The scan I used shows her regenerating inside the building, specifically because that's where she explains the ability herself, supporting the narrative implication.

The automatic assumption is that it would be automatic because we don't really have any proof that it's voluntary. I don't quite understand this section because it doesn't contradict anything I said. The only valid point I'm seeing here, and please feel free to clarify what you're trying to get across, is that you're essentially just restating your original point, which we've already discussed. However, I do agree that it should be stated that Primal Regen is automatic.

While I understand the premise, it doesn't hold much weight because the regeneration negation is limited and, at best periodic. You could argue that beings like Pochita exhibit resistance to such negation, as his regeneration is narratively portrayed as extremely potent, capable of restoring his boliology from trees, healing from just a heart and even creating clones. If Makima didn’t find it useful to use regeneration negation against him, that could indicate a possible resistance to it on his profile.

Alternatively, it’s also possible that Makima simply didn’t need to resort to regen negation, considering she had multiple other options that were supposedly just as effective. Ultimately, her plan was to depower him and that approach worked. I can’t stress enough that Makima rarely had any real opportunities to attack him directly only once and when she did, she used that chance to launch him into space.

Makima cannot perceive Pochita, he is a blitz teir above her reactions.

My first point is that the hindrance in the darkness devil's regeneration is potentially not true. Because when the falling devil received injuries she didn't instantly heal, which only leads to two options, primals regeneration aren't instant or the falling devil's regeneration (who's already been established to be similar to the darkness devil's) is voluntary. There is no other reason the falling devil shouldn't have instantly regenerated.

The argument that santa should have turned into her night state if she was in a complete place of darkness is flawed since she made the comment that she "healed all wounds instantly" while not her in her night state, which means it should've applied then. Basically, even when not in her night state she can heal all wounds "instantly"

A few more points I forgot to mention;
Whenever regeneration is negation in CSM, its usually a really evident scenario. When denji nullified Makima's regeneration, even when temporary, it was clear she wasn't healing from anytime soon. In the darkness devil case,he literally was in perfect condition after what at most is a few seconds don't you think that if the narrative implication was that Makima was negating her regeneration, even if its in a limited manner, the darkness devil should have retained some injury, or at least the timeframe should've been stretched? And that leads to a point I previously mentioned which is if makima could negate regeneration with this ability she should've used this on Pochita. Your defense for this are:
-The regeneration negation is limited
-He had trouble landing hits on Pochita because of his speed
-Her finding regen negation not useful against Pochita implies he resists it.

1. This is true but it doesn't matter. Being able to negate the regeneration of primals means she should be able to even hamper the regeneration of lesser devils by an even greater degree. Furthermore when she had a clear shot on Pochita she used a sword that hampered his regeneration, meaning the negation of his regeneration was a priority for makima, something that contradicts your statement.

2. But she had two chances to use it. Even if you dont count the moment where she uses bang, she still opted to use a sword which has the sole property of negating regeneration instead of her attack that attacks on a biological level, ignores durability AND can hamper even the primals regen? (Also this isnt relevant to the CRT specifically, but the versus thread that inspired this, but this marks twice that she preferred another ability instead of bio hax. She opted for bang instead of the dura and regen negation move that harmed a primal, then she opted for the 1000 year sword instead of it as well).

I'm not saying we assume its voluntary or automatic without basis, the reason I brought up the falling devil is because there is an instance that she didn't regenerate instantly, which can mean two things, primal regens aren't instant or aren't automatic, both of which contradicts the thread.

 

[GunshyFever]

My first point is that the hindrance in the darkness devil's regeneration is potentially not true. Because when the falling devil received injuries she didn't instantly heal, which only leads to two options, primals regeneration aren't instant or the falling devil's regeneration (who's already been established to be similar to the darkness devil's) is voluntary. There is no other reason the falling devil shouldn't have instantly regenerated.

The argument that santa should have turned into her night state if she was in a complete place of darkness is flawed since she made the comment that she "healed all wounds instantly" while not her in her night state, which means it should've applied then. Basically, even when not in her night state she can heal all wounds "instantly"

I go over this later on in my reply, see here:

As stated, this is the power of a fragment of the Darkness Devil's flesh, a mere fragment of his power. The Darkness devil, especially in this scenario, should not have been hindered, considering Santa's instantaneous regeneration.

Take for example, her night state: initially when Denji sets himself on fire to harm her, it has no effect. She continues to regenerate instantly, seeing Denji’s efforts as futile. However, Denji notes that the more he pursues Santa, the more her regeneration slows due to her exposure to the light of his bodily flames.

At this point in the narrative, Santa Claus and by extension the Darkness Devil, is clearly shown to regenerate instantly within darkness.

Here's what I'm clarifying based on what I mentioned above. I stated that the Darkness Devil's innate primal regeneration continued to function while his enhanced regeneration within darkness failed to heal him instantly. This is demonstrated in the scan linked above.

My argument isn't that his regeneration was completely nullified, rather, I'm arguing that his enhanced regeneration within darkness was momentarily negated. This regen should be constantly restoring his body, as shown with Nighttime Santa in the scan I referenced in my previous reply.

As even stronger support for Makima's case, it's worth noting that her bio point lacks a light source, which by extension should further negate the Darkness Devil’s regeneration and invulnerability. That's the basis of the argument.

As for Santa Claus, when her body was momentarily covered by darkness, the rays of the sun and the light from the windows created an obvious contrast within the building she was in, especially on the 8th floor, which she crashed through before jumping in. She was not surrounded by complete darkness.

It's also important to note that Santa Claus sent her dolls to fight Denji and Quanxi while she remained behind the scenes, absorbing knowledge of the darkness and learning how to use her power. She stated that she was deepening her wisdom with the power of darkness and that she would eventually evolve through it.

What am I trying to convey? Simply put, at the time Santa Claus regenerated her arm, she had only recently acquired her powers and had not yet begun to deepen her understanding of how they truly worked. Over time, she becomes more intelligent and gains a better grasp of the power she wields as she continues to cultivate it.

Meaning, using Santa Claus as an argument against her own regen before she could fully comprehend how it functions is flawed.

A few more points I forgot to mention;
Whenever regeneration is negation in CSM, its usually a really evident scenario. When denji nullified Makima's regeneration, even when temporary, it was clear she wasn't healing from anytime soon. In the darkness devil case,he literally was in perfect condition after what at most is a few seconds don't you think that if the narrative implication was that Makima was negating her regeneration, even if its in a limited manner, the darkness devil should have retained some injury, or at least the timeframe should've been stretched? And that leads to a point I previously mentioned which is if makima could negate regeneration with this ability she should've used this on Pochita. Your defense for this are:
-The regeneration negation is limited
-He had trouble landing hits on Pochita because of his speed
-Her finding regen negation not useful against Pochita implies he resists it.

1. This is true but it doesn't matter. Being able to negate the regeneration of primals means she should be able to even hamper the regeneration of lesser devils by an even greater degree. Furthermore when she had a clear shot on Pochita she used a sword that hampered his regeneration, meaning the negation of his regeneration was a priority for makima, something that contradicts your statement.

2. But she had two chances to use it. Even if you dont count the moment where she uses bang, she still opted to use a sword which has the sole property of negating regeneration instead of her attack that attacks on a biological level, ignores durability AND can hamper even the primals regen? (Also this isnt relevant to the CRT specifically, but the versus thread that inspired this, but this marks twice that she preferred another ability instead of bio hax. She opted for bang instead of the dura and regen negation move that harmed a primal, then she opted for the 1000 year sword instead of it as well).

I'm not saying we assume its voluntary or automatic without basis, the reason I brought up the falling devil is because there is an instance that she didn't regenerate instantly, which can mean two things, primal regens aren't instant or aren't automatic, both of which contradicts the thread.

There are some misconceptions in your points. Denji never negated Makima's regeneration, he merely disrupted it by causing powers blood to run amok inside her body. This significantly slowed down her regeneration, but it didn’t halt it entirely. In fact Makima herself states that it’s not even close to enough and Denji admits that a cheap trick like that is unlikely to kill her.

Essentially, the internal damage he causes is happening faster than her regeneration can initially keep up with. However, this is only temporary. Narratively, her regeneration is ultimately presumed to overcome this trial had she had more time as confirmed both by Denji, Makima and even Kishibe and was reinforced by the story itself.

And yes, while your points and the narrative implications of the scene do hold weight, the overall portrayal of the encounter was meant to showcase Makima's power, her ability to harm and keep up with a Primal Devil. This is simply an ability that comes alongside that display of strength.

As for your points regarding on her using it against Pochita.

1. I see what you mean and you're actually not wrong for thinking that. However, a "lesser devil" shouldn’t be faster than a Primal Devil, let alone possess an ability to erase others from existence while being the concept of chainsaws. I view Pochita as a clear anomaly within the devil system, which does raise the question of whether he could truly resist such abilities.

That said, I still don’t see any strong evidence suggesting that he could, so I’m more than willing to agree with you on this point. In fact, we’ve seen Pochita be susceptible to biological manipulation during the Aging Devil arc, which weakens the logical argument for his resistance.

However, it’s still important to note that Pochita is not like other devils, so we shouldn’t treat him as if he is.

2. Her profile already explains this;

Only in rare situations against opponents who she deeply respects or/and admires such as Chainsaw Man will she choose to personally engage with them with just her bare hands.

Makima is a huge fan of Chainsaw Man, she admires him, needs him for her plans and even expresses a desire to live a happy life with him. Chainsaw Man isn’t her Darkness Devil. She wouldn't want to, nor have a reason to, immediately resort to her bio hax him when she holds such deep admiration for him. Instead, she chooses to confront him using her physical prowess.

As for 1000 year spear, that was a trap. Makima set up Pochita and knows nearly every detail about him, that move was for him especially considering her weakening him.

Even then, Makima got perception-blitzed, she couldn’t have used that ability even if she wanted to. She didn’t get the chance to move an inch before Pochita chopped her up into carrots.

(Off-topic, but I find it hilarious how Kishibe looks during that scene, the stare down between them is just priceless. I honestly wonder what both of them are thinking.)

 

[FinePoint]

Non staff votes aren't as significant as staff votes but I think they still matter. But what a non staff member can contribute to CRT is mainly discussion.

They don't technically matter in terms of whether or not the revision is approved, but we of course take everything you guys say into consideration when voting. In fact, we often heavily rely on you for knowledge, like I am now, since I know nothing about this verse.

Which, relevantly: I think you make a lot of sense, and I was sort of thinking the same thing after reading the OP.

I don't think this is regen negation in the sense that the exact time before someone regenerates being slightly inconsistent isn't really good proof of it.
Fiction simply tends to be inconsistent like that, all the time.

 

[GunshyFever]

I don't think this is regen negation in the sense that the exact time before someone regenerates being slightly inconsistent isn't really good proof of it.
Fiction simply tends to be inconsistent like that, all the time.

It's not a matter of inconsistency. It would help to read my message above, where I responded to his points. It gives insight into what I actually mean, hence the "limited".

 

[FinePoint]

It's not a matter of inconsistency. It would help to read my message above, where I responded to his points. It gives insight into what I actually mean, hence the "limited".

I read it. I understand where you're coming from- I meant more that I view this as just a minor inconsistency, rather than an explicit feat of negation.

Ultimately, "several seconds" is a very short delay for an ability to activate, so unless it's explicitly stated it took longer than normal I'm not comfortable accepting that as an intentional narrative choice as opposed to just a stylistic one (given that a vast majority of fiction doesn't care about abilities being completely consistently portrayed).

 

[GunshyFever]

I read it. I understand where you're coming from- I meant more that I view this as just a minor inconsistency, rather than an explicit feat of negation.

Ultimately, "several seconds" is a very short delay for an ability to activate, so unless it's explicitly stated it took longer than normal I'm not comfortable accepting that as an intentional narrative choice as opposed to just a stylistic one (given that a vast majority of fiction doesn't care about abilities being completely consistently portrayed).

Yeah I figured, not the best narrative portrayal or maybe not one at all. I'm starting to disagree with the OP as well. I'm just going to see what others, like the person who initially mentioned it have to say and then, uh, see what goes on from there.

I definitely think she should get something from harming the darkness devil like this though.

.

Wyt?

 

[Jaynic1]

i definitely think she should get something from harming the darkness devil like this though.

I agree, I think invulnerability negation is very blatant.

 

[Zabazab]

I do think this CRT is needlessly bloated. You could have just shown how insane Primal Fear regen is, the fact that Darkness' regen is explicitly "instantaneous" with severe injuries going practically unnoticed, and contrasted that against Darkness being visibly stunned and needing to take a moment to kneel.

As a side note, I do disagree with Darkness' invulnerability in general now, since Santa Claus was injured in the dark. I suppose an invulnerable devil wouldn't care to use a force-field.

 

[GunshyFever]

I do think this CRT is needlessly bloated. You could have just shown how insane Primal Fear regen is, the fact that Darkness' regen is explicitly "instantaneous" with severe injuries going practically unnoticed, and contrasted that against Darkness being visibly stunned and needing to take a moment to kneel.

As a side note, I do disagree with Darkness' invulnerability in general now, since Santa Claus was injured in the dark. I suppose an invulnerable devil wouldn't care to use a force-field.

I disagree that Santa Claus was in complete darkness, but I'd be a liar if I said I wasn't skeptical about the invulnerability statement. I kind of just went along with it. Your former argument checks out, I don't see why an invulnerable devil would need a forcefield.

I'm assuming your on board with limited regeneration negation though? Just five me the right words and I can also change the OP.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

I do think this CRT is needlessly bloated. You could have just shown how insane Primal Fear regen is, the fact that Darkness' regen is explicitly "instantaneous" with severe injuries going practically unnoticed, and contrasted that against Darkness being visibly stunned and needing to take a moment to kneel.

As a side note, I do disagree with Darkness' invulnerability in general now, since Santa Claus was injured in the dark. I suppose an invulnerable devil wouldn't care to use a force-field.

Or maybe... The force field is actually it's way of being "invulnerable"?

 

[Razor]

I go over this later on in my reply, see here:

Here's what I'm clarifying based on what I mentioned above. I stated that the Darkness Devil's innate primal regeneration continued to function while his enhanced regeneration within darkness failed to heal him instantly. This is demonstrated in the scan linked above.

My argument isn't that his regeneration was completely nullified, rather, I'm arguing that his enhanced regeneration within darkness was momentarily negated. This regen should be constantly restoring his body, as shown with Nighttime Santa in the scan I referenced in my previous reply.

As even stronger support for Makima's case, it's worth noting that her bio point lacks a light source, which by extension should further negate the Darkness Devil’s regeneration and invulnerability. That's the basis of the argument.

As for Santa Claus, when her body was momentarily covered by darkness, the rays of the sun and the light from the windows created an obvious contrast within the building she was in, especially on the 8th floor, which she crashed through before jumping in. She was not surrounded by complete darkness.

It's also important to note that Santa Claus sent her dolls to fight Denji and Quanxi while she remained behind the scenes, absorbing knowledge of the darkness and learning how to use her power. She stated that she was deepening her wisdom with the power of darkness and that she would eventually evolve through it.

What am I trying to convey? Simply put, at the time Santa Claus regenerated her arm, she had only recently acquired her powers and had not yet begun to deepen her understanding of how they truly worked. Over time, she becomes more intelligent and gains a better grasp of the power she wields as she continues to cultivate it.

Meaning, using Santa Claus as an argument against her own regen before she could fully comprehend how it functions is flawed.

There are some misconceptions in your points. Denji never negated Makima's regeneration, he merely disrupted it by causing powers blood to run amok inside her body. This significantly slowed down her regeneration, but it didn’t halt it entirely. In fact Makima herself states that it’s not even close to enough and Denji admits that a cheap trick like that is unlikely to kill her.

Essentially, the internal damage he causes is happening faster than her regeneration can initially keep up with. However, this is only temporary. Narratively, her regeneration is ultimately presumed to overcome this trial had she had more time as confirmed both by Denji, Makima and even Kishibe and was reinforced by the story itself.

And yes, while your points and the narrative implications of the scene do hold weight, the overall portrayal of the encounter was meant to showcase Makima's power, her ability to harm and keep up with a Primal Devil. This is simply an ability that comes alongside that display of strength.

As for your points regarding on her using it against Pochita.

1. I see what you mean and you're actually not wrong for thinking that. However, a "lesser devil" shouldn’t be faster than a Primal Devil, let alone possess an ability to erase others from existence while being the concept of chainsaws. I view Pochita as a clear anomaly within the devil system, which does raise the question of whether he could truly resist such abilities.

That said, I still don’t see any strong evidence suggesting that he could, so I’m more than willing to agree with you on this point. In fact, we’ve seen Pochita be susceptible to biological manipulation during the Aging Devil arc, which weakens the logical argument for his resistance.

However, it’s still important to note that Pochita is not like other devils, so we shouldn’t treat him as if he is.

2. Her profile already explains this;

Makima is a huge fan of Chainsaw Man, she admires him, needs him for her plans and even expresses a desire to live a happy life with him. Chainsaw Man isn’t her Darkness Devil. She wouldn't want to, nor have a reason to, immediately resort to her bio hax him when she holds such deep admiration for him. Instead, she chooses to confront him using her physical prowess.

As for 1000 year spear, that was a trap. Makima set up Pochita and knows nearly every detail about him, that move was for him especially considering her weakening him.

Even then, Makima got perception-blitzed, she couldn’t have used that ability even if she wanted to. She didn’t get the chance to move an inch before Pochita chopped her up into carrots.

(Off-topic, but I find it hilarious how Kishibe looks during that scene, the stare down between them is just priceless. I honestly wonder what both of them are thinking.)

I see where you're coming from with these points but I still am not convinced of Makima being able to negate regeneration. I honestly disagree that the portrayal of the scene was Makima being strong enough to harm a primal, why? Because it was the first time we see a primal. If anything, the encounter was meant to showcase how strong the darkness devil, a primal is. The fact that something was able to come back from everything Makima has AND make her run away. I also don't see the scene of the darkness devil being harmed as being narratively implied that she could negate regeneration, especially when the other narrative points disagree with that notion.

Your comments about Pochita doesn't really change anything. Pochita is still a lesser devil to the primals, I do agree he's an exception but he is demonstrably shown to be weaker than the primals as seen when a stronger pochita got completely outclassed by a non trying primal. Which means that if Pochita was able to blitz Makima the darkness devil should've been able to do her worse, but the fact that he didn't means that he was holding back. Which has always been the consensus surrounding the darkness and makima fight, because there is no logical explanation as to why Makima should've even survived the encounter. We don't know anything concrete about darkness' attitude but the safest assumption is he wasn't all out trying to kill Makima. Cause otherwise, that would mean the darkness devil is horribly outclassed by the other devils.

Your comments on denji nullifying Makima's regen doesn't help your case either. Since I'm aware he didn't fully nullify it, yet it was way more clear that he was hampering her regen than in makima and darkness devil's case. I think thats what a "limited regeneration negation" looks like within the context of chainsaw man, Makima didn't just regenerate after a 5 second delay instead of her actual regeneration time, she was unable to heal long enough for denji to capture her. Makima dealing damage against the darkness devil and the damage lasting for at most a few seconds, and after that timeframe he's completely fine afterwards just isn't Makima negating his regeneration, I can't say that in good faith.

I have some other issues with the thread but the overall point is that I just dont think it lines up narratively, and is inconsistent. I don't think Fujimoto was trying to convey that Makima could negate regeneration in that scene, or at all.

 

[ElajRuengies]

I read it. I understand where you're coming from- I meant more that I view this as just a minor inconsistency, rather than an explicit feat of negation.

Ultimately, "several seconds" is a very short delay for an ability to activate, so unless it's explicitly stated it took longer than normal I'm not comfortable accepting that as an intentional narrative choice as opposed to just a stylistic one (given that a vast majority of fiction doesn't care about abilities being completely consistently portrayed).

The thing about Chainsaw Man compared to say, JJK, is that it's very show-don't-tell.

Like, I still believe that this was a huge application of the Mold Devil rather than an ability innate to Makima (it's the exact same gesture to use and both are anti-regeneration), and that the criminal-fueled shrine attack was actually the Punishment Devil, but I'm never gonna be able to get that passed since it's only ever implied.


But anywho, I still believe what Makima did was anti-regeneration, simply because blistering fast pacing of Hybrid Quanxi's arrows which Santa was recovering from is notably faster from a presentation standpoint compared to how fast Darkness recovered from Makima's point, despite the latter being in a way darker place than the former.

That said, if you're asking me for absolutely solid proof, then I don't have anything to give, because Chainsaw Man's not that kind of story.

 

[GunshyFever]

I see where you're coming from with these points but I still am not convinced of Makima being able to negate regeneration. I honestly disagree that the portrayal of the scene was Makima being strong enough to harm a primal, why? Because it was the first time we see a primal. If anything, the encounter was meant to showcase how strong the darkness devil, a primal is. The fact that something was able to come back from everything Makima has AND make her run away. I also don't see the scene of the darkness devil being harmed as being narratively implied that she could negate regeneration, especially when the other narrative points disagree with that notion.

Your comments about Pochita doesn't really change anything. Pochita is still a lesser devil to the primals, I do agree he's an exception but he is demonstrably shown to be weaker than the primals as seen when a stronger pochita got completely outclassed by a non trying primal. Which means that if Pochita was able to blitz Makima the darkness devil should've been able to do her worse, but the fact that he didn't means that he was holding back. Which has always been the consensus surrounding the darkness and makima fight, because there is no logical explanation as to why Makima should've even survived the encounter. We don't know anything concrete about darkness' attitude but the safest assumption is he wasn't all out trying to kill Makima. Cause otherwise, that would mean the darkness devil is horribly outclassed by the other devils.

Your comments on denji nullifying Makima's regen doesn't help your case either. Since I'm aware he didn't fully nullify it, yet it was way more clear that he was hampering her regen than in makima and darkness devil's case. I think thats what a "limited regeneration negation" looks like within the context of chainsaw man, Makima didn't just regenerate after a 5 second delay instead of her actual regeneration time, she was unable to heal long enough for denji to capture her. Makima dealing damage against the darkness devil and the damage lasting for at most a few seconds, and after that timeframe he's completely fine afterwards just isn't Makima negating his regeneration, I can't say that in good faith.

I have some other issues with the thread but the overall point is that I just dont think it lines up narratively, and is inconsistent. I don't think Fujimoto was trying to convey that Makima could negate regeneration in that scene, or at all.

All the other points were discussed above including the narrative portrayal, so most of this is just reiteration.

However, I’d like to address your point about Makima’s portrayal. The Darkness Devil was given a chance to display its power in the earlier chapters before Makima appeared, particularly through its performance against the rest of the cast. That was specifically a narrative portrayal of completely wiping the entire cast.

The chapter where Makima arrives serves as a narrative statement saying: "Hey Makima is capable of contending with these devils, while everyone else was effortlessly dismantled." The mere scene in which Makima harms the Darkness Devil is meant to convey that, for some reason Makima is this strong. It's meant to signal to the reader that she operates on a comparable power level. It's called power cliffing.

Yes, she may have fled afterward, but her focus was clearly not on defeating the Darkness Devil, her first instinct was to grab the squad and escape. All of this occurs before Makima is revealed as the Control Devil, at that point she was just a mysterious, powerful "girl boss" figure.

The fact that Makima was able to harm the Darkness Devil at all is a narrative portrayal of her power. That’s not just non an assumption, it’s a clear fact.

 

[Razor]

All the other points were discussed above including the narrative portrayal, so most of this is just reiteration.

However, I’d like to address your point about Makima’s portrayal. The Darkness Devil was given a chance to display its power in the earlier chapters before Makima appeared, particularly through its performance against the rest of the cast. That was specifically a narrative portrayal of completely wiping the entire cast.

The chapter where Makima arrives serves as a narrative statement saying: "Hey Makima is capable of contending with these devils, while everyone else was effortlessly dismantled." The mere scene in which Makima harms the Darkness Devil is meant to convey that, for some reason Makima is this strong. It's meant to signal to the reader that she operates on a comparable power level. It's called power cliffing.

Yes, she may have fled afterward, but her focus was clearly not on defeating the Darkness Devil, her first instinct was to grab the squad and escape. All of this occurs before Makima is revealed as the Control Devil, at that point she was just a mysterious, powerful "girl boss" figure.

The fact that Makima was able to harm the Darkness Devil at all is a narrative portrayal of her power. That’s not just non an assumption, it’s a clear fact.

But, she doesn't? She is not comparable to the primals at all as we've seen later on. The reason her focus wasn't on defeating the darkness devil is because she KNOWS she can't ever hope to beat the darkness devil, which is why she fled.

 

[GunshyFever]

But, she doesn't? She is not comparable to the primals at all as we've seen later on. The reason her focus wasn't on defeating the darkness devil is because she KNOWS she can't ever hope to beat the darkness devil, which is why she fled.

That's definitely not the reason. She fled because of a difference in goals, her goal wasn't to fight the Darkness Devil but to grab her stuff and split. The Darkness Devil just happened to be in her way. It's obvious she's not directly comparable to a primal fear, but I'm just saying that narratively, her power level at least in terms of her abilities is up there.

 

[Razor]

That's definitely not the reason. She fled because of a difference in goals, her goal wasn't to fight the Darkness Devil but to grab her stuff and split. The Darkness Devil just happened to be in her way. It's obvious she's not directly comparable to a primal fear, but I'm just saying that narratively, her power level at least in terms of her abilities is up there.

If the darkness devil was in her way it would be best for her if she eliminated him. Only reason she wouldn't is because she can't. The reason she didn't kill the darkness devil isn't because "It's not her goal". It's because she can't do it, which is why that wasn't her plan in the first place.

 

[GunshyFever]

If the darkness devil was in her way it would be best for her if she eliminated him. Only reason she wouldn't is because she can't. The reason she didn't kill the darkness devil isn't because "It's not her goal". It's because she can't do it, which is why that wasn't her plan in the first place.

Yeah I'm not denying that she can’t. My point is that Makima is the only character who was actually able to harm a Primal Devil in that arc, which at the time placed her on a power cliff. The power cliff still exists, it's a way of saying, "Primal Devils > Horsemen >> Regular Devils."

 

[Razor]

Yeah I'm not denying that she can’t. My point is that Makima is the only character who was actually able to harm a Primal Devil in that arc, which at the time placed her on a power cliff. The power cliff still exists, it's a way of saying, "Primal Devils > Horsemen >> Regular Devils."

Then your point and mine could both be true at the same time. The darkness devil forcing makima to flee and Makima outperforming all the cast against DD could be used to narratively strengthen both of their positions. While Makima hasn't been stated as the control devil here yet she's obviously a very powerful individual, she has killed major antagonists with relative ease (Reze) and almost everybody seems to be under her.

 

[GunshyFever]

Bump

 

[GunshyFever]

.

Just wanted to know if you're neutral or if you disagree with the proposals of the OP.

 

[FinePoint]

Just wanted to know if you're neutral or if you disagree with the proposals of the OP.

It seems like I disagreed with it.

 

[GunshyFever]

Bump

 

[Machmatej]

Agree