Questions about 1-A

[KingPin0422]

1. What is the difference between transcending infinite dimensions and being superior to the concept of dimensions? Are those beyond Hilbert Space structures somehow still a part of the concept of dimensions?

2. What even IS a meta-abstraction, and how is the term any different from something like, say, Abstract Existence?

 

[Anonimoe7875]

1.1: They are likely the same

1.2 Yes

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

1.1: They are likely the same

Actually, they're not. An object can transcend an infinite dimensional object and still just be infinite dimensional because there may be a collection of these structures where higher and lower realms exist but still transcribe to their general laws (such as space-time).

To be superior to the concept of dimensions a totality needs to be transcended, meaning no matter the number or degree of infinity the infinite dimensional construct is raised, it would be irrelevant to someone who transcends the concept of dimensions.

 

[KingPin0422]

Okay, maybe I should have worded my first question better:

What's the difference between being conceptually different and conceptually superior to the concept of dimensions?

From what I know, an outerversal reality falling under the former type of 1-A could serve as the "background" for any dimensional object, while one going by the latter definition can be completely locked away from dimensionality as a whole.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

The former consists entirely of nothingness while the latter transcends dimensionality though they don't have to be mutually exclusive.

 

[KingPin0422]

Ah.

So it's possible for a verse to include both definitions of an outerverse?

Alright then.

I... still don't know what a meta-abstraction is, though, or how it differs from "regular" abstractions.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

That I have no clue. I've psrsonally just consideted it to be flowery language.

 

[Antvasima]

Where was the word meta-abstraction used?

 

[KingPin0422]

From the Outerverse page:

"For a more in-depth analysis, outerversal realities are those whose nature is conceptually different from time and space (of any size and complexity), that is, they are completely transcendental in relation to physics. They can be described as a meta-abstractio, which makes them completely non-physical in relation to a higher dimensional reality. An outerverse can be the "background" for a dimensional reality of any size and complexity."

I am still unable to figure out what this means, and as Regulator said it could just be flowery talk.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. Sera wrote that. I will ask her to clarify.

 

[KingPin0422]

Well, in any case, I'd like an answer from you about this question:

Is it true that "transcending infinite dimensions" could be either High 1-B or 1-A?

If so, how is it determined whether it is High 1-B or straight-up 1-A?

Because from what I've gathered, some characters who are described as being beyond infinite dimensions are High 1-B, while others are 1-A.

 

[Antvasima]

The distinction is sometimes hard to properly quantify. But simply infinitely exceeding a High 1-B being or continuum usually simply means having a higher order of High 1-B, whereas 1-A means transcending the concepts of space and time in their entirety. We tend to attempt to evaluate such characters on a case-by-case basis.

As our Tiering System page says: "There are two options in order to qualify for this tier: There should either be a qualitative superiority over infinite dimensions; or the superiority over the concept of dimensions (in general) should be clearly explained."

DarkLK or Sera Loveheart would be better at explaining this than I am however.

 

[KingPin0422]

Huh.

So if your attempted explanation is right, being infinitely superior to Hilbert Space level characters isn't enough for Outerversal status on its own. A character would have to be inherently superior to infinite dimensions, or even possess a conceptual superiority over the concept of dimensions in general.

In other words, saying a character is infinitely superior to a Hilbert Space is pretty much an "infinity plus one" type of thing, I take it?

 

[Sera_EX]

The distinction between the two helps with determining whether or not something is 1-A in a setting with less dimensions.

If you completely transcend an infinite-dimensional structure you are obviously 1-A. You are transcendent in relation to physics. However, what if a setting is 12-dimensional? Well...if you transcend 12-D spacetime, you're 13-D not beyond-dimensional. However, if you were conceptually superior to the concept of dimensions entirely (like the Chousin) you are 1-A, but 12-D, 150-D, 7003-D, infinite-D, are all bound to the concept of dimensions. If you are conceptually (as in the very abstract nature of your existence) superior to the concept of dimensions you are 1-A despite your verse only being 12-D.

Meta-Abstractio is a form of intangibility and the highest form of Abstract Existence. Something not just metaphysical in relation to 3-dimensional physicsb but dimensional physics of any complexity. These beings cannot be physically harmed regardless of dimensionality.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the help with explaining this.

I would appreciate if you could clarify what a meta-abstraction is in the Outerverse and/or Abstract Existence pages?

 

[Sera_EX]

They can be described as a meta-abstractio, which makes them completely non-physical in relation to any higher dimensional reality.

It's already on the page.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Antvasima]

Meta-Abstractio is a form of intangibility and the highest form of Abstract Existence. Something not just metaphysical in relation to 3-dimensional physics, but dimensional physics of any complexity. These beings cannot be physically harmed regardless of dimensionality.

However, to avoid future misunderstandings, perhaps something similar to the above text could be inserted into either page?

 

[Sera_EX]

Okey dokey.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you.

 

[VenomElite]

Actually, I think there needs to a powers/ability page for Higher Dimensional Existence, Dimensionless Existence, and Metaphysical Existence. The reason is because unlike the Hyperverse page (flawless) the Outerverse page is a bit cluttered with definitions. Sera tried to explain both an outerverse and a dimensionless being at once. Abstract Existence is just Conceptual Existence (embodying a concept) not every high-dimensional or beyond-dimensional creature is the embodiment of any concept. Meta-Abstractio refers to intangibility (even the impact of reality cannot affect a meta-abstract) but reality itself is abstract, not concrete or solid (universally) therefore "meta"-abstract.

An Outerverse doesn't change. It's simply a formless, transcendental realm that any physiscist would be incapable of explaining due to its complexity. Having a nature conceptually different from space-time and having a nature superior to space-time are two of the three forms of dimensionless (the other being zero-dimensional). Yes, this applies to an outerverse itself but it's definition should be simplified. These aren't simple concepts and people keep confusing them anyway. Kevyn Souza and I already had a conversation about how it is factually flawed to think metaphysical = transcendental. There's a lot of confusion going around.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Perhaps you could start a staff thread about this subject, and invite Kevyn Souza and DarkLK to participate?

 

[Sera_EX]

Okay Meta-Abstraction =/= Abstract Existence. Got it.

Why we didn't originally name Abstract Existence,"Conceptual Existence" I have no idea. Maybe because in comic books the Cosmic Abstracts are conceptual existences.

However, I think staff would think it's redudant to have a page for Higher-Dimensional Manipulation, Hyperverse, Higher-Dimensional Existence, Outerverse, and Dimensionless Existence.

 

[VenomElite]

Okay. Perhaps you could start a staff thread about this subject, and invite Kevyn Souza and DarkLK to participate?

That is the best solution. I'll do that.

 

[Antvasima]

@Sera Possibly, yes. Do you have any suggestions for how to make all of these concepts easier to understand for our visitors?

 

[Antvasima]

@VenomElite Okay.

 

[Sera_EX]

Ven basically did so on the new thread. Kevyn Souza is sick so he may be unable to leave a reply.

 

[Antvasima]

Alright.