question about a peculiar case (?)

[SweetDao]

So, we follow characters inside the universe doing things, fighting, etc, basically the story.

We later learn that one character, long before the actual story timeline, transformed all the reality (the universe we're following) into fiction while making fiction (a "higher world" with readers/authors/etc) into reality.

To explain a bit better:

• At first there was only one universe and that was "reality".
• Guy comes, transform all the reality into "fiction" and create a "higher world" (which was fiction until now, in the sense it didn't exist at all) into the new "reality", observing the "fiction" (old reality).

I have two major questions.

First one : How would we treat the "baseline reality" here? The universe in which the story develop is either 11-C or, if we admit baseline reality, just a regular Low 2-C realm. Technically, even if it's "11-C" we would just treat is as an equalized reality (I think? Since it's 100% of the story itself, it would be weird to rate it 11-C, but maybe I'm wrong).

Second one : Which hax should we give him? It's pretty obvious that he either has "qualitative inferiority inducement" or "qualitative superiority inducement" (Technically discussed around here). Depending on how we treat the "baseline reality" I feel like he would get only one of them, but I wonder if there is a case in which he would get both.
Be it fiction or reality, they are as "he will them to be", so even the "qualitative superiority" hax would be fine. (and in any case, just assume it's fine/there is no anti-feat regardless, it's not meaningful for the questions).

The biggest problem with the second question is that, if we end up with only one of the two "application" of his power, it would inevitably mean we're purposely ignoring one of them. If we assume the "old reality" becomes 11-C, then it means he only has "qualitative inferiority inducement" while ignoring he technically created a "higher world". If we assume the "old reality" as Low 2-C, then it means he only has "qualitative superiority inducement" for creating a 1-A realm, but it would ignore the fact it transformed the old reality as a fiction.

Hope it's clear enough.

 

[SweetDao]

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[BeTheWay1rst]

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[SweetDao]

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[ShinMaximillion]

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[Zeldris98764]

I'll give my initial thoughts on this

First one : How would we treat the "baseline reality" here? The universe in which the story develop is either 11-C or, if we admit baseline reality, just a regular Low 2-C realm. Technically, even if it's "11-C" we would just treat is as an equalized reality (I think? Since it's 100% of the story itself, it would be weird to rate it 11-C, but maybe I'm wrong).

Regarding the "baseline reality": My assumption would be that the universe where the story primarily takes place would still be treated as Low 2-C (assuming it's a standard 4D spacetime continuum) for the purpose of tiering characters and events within it, due to Reality Equalization. The fact that it's now "fiction" to a higher world is what establishes the R>F transcendence for that higher world, likely making it Tier 1-A. So, the universe isn't 11-C in an absolute sense for its inhabitants; its fictional nature is relative to the new, higher reality

Second one : Which hax should we give him? It's pretty obvious that he either has "qualitative inferiority inducement" or "qualitative superiority inducement" (Technically discussed around here). Depending on how we treat the "baseline reality" I feel like he would get only one of them, but I wonder if there is a case in which he would get both.
Be it fiction or reality, they are as "he will them to be", so even the "qualitative superiority" hax would be fine. (and in any case, just assume it's fine/there is no anti-feat regardless, it's not meaningful for the questions).

The biggest problem with the second question is that, if we end up with only one of the two "application" of his power, it would inevitably mean we're purposely ignoring one of them.

For the hax: He clearly has extremely potent Reality Warping. I don't see why he couldn't be credited with abilities reflecting both aspects of his feat, if he indeed performed both actions:

1. Transforming the original reality into "fiction" could be seen as a form of Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1) over "reality/fiction" or an extreme form of Transmutation/Existence Erasure (erasing its status as the prime reality and transmuting it to a lower ontological state). "Qualitative inferiority inducement" seems like a good descriptor for this effect.
2. Simultaneously making/elevating the (previously non-existent or fictional) "higher world" into the new "reality" would be a form of Creation and/or Conceptual Manipulation as well. "Qualitative superiority inducement" fits this.

These don't seem mutually exclusive if his power operates on that fundamental a level. He's essentially redefining the ontological structure of existence for these realms. It's not necessarily ignoring one aspect to credit both.

 

[SweetDao]

The fact that it's now "fiction" to a higher world is what establishes the R>F transcendence for that higher world, likely making it Tier 1-A. So, the universe isn't 11-C in an absolute sense for its inhabitants; its fictional nature is relative to the new, higher reality

If it becomes fiction now, you either take it into account or not. You can't "partially take it into account". In that particular instance, the "old reality" would be "Low 2-C" solely due to reality equalization, not because of an in-verse explanation, as such, and for all intent and purpose, it would be 11-C otherwise.

For the hax: He clearly has extremely potent Reality Warping. I don't see why he couldn't be credited with abilities reflecting both aspects of his feat, if he indeed performed both actions:

1. Transforming the original reality into "fiction" could be seen as a form of Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1) over "reality/fiction" or an extreme form of Transmutation/Existence Erasure (erasing its status as the prime reality and transmuting it to a lower ontological state). "Qualitative inferiority inducement" seems like a good descriptor for this effect.
2. Simultaneously making/elevating the (previously non-existent or fictional) "higher world" into the new "reality" would be a form of Creation and/or Conceptual Manipulation as well. "Qualitative superiority inducement" fits this.

These don't seem mutually exclusive if his power operates on that fundamental a level. He's essentially redefining the ontological structure of existence for these realms. It's not necessarily ignoring one aspect to credit both.

Main problem is how the wiki would treat it. Again, he can have both, but depending on how do you consider the cosmology to be in and on itself. I'm simply iffy on the fact that there is no real way to unite both ways unless making some assumptions regarding the verse current standing.

 

[Zeldris98764]

Fair points

If it becomes fiction now, you either take it into account or not. You can't "partially take it into account". In that particular instance, the "old reality" would be "Low 2-C" solely due to reality equalization, not because of an in-verse explanation, as such, and for all intent and purpose, it would be 11-C otherwise.

You're right, from the perspective of the newly established 1-A reality, the old universe is now ontologically equivalent to fiction (and thus, 11-C from that higher vantage point). My point about it being "functionally Low 2-C" was purely for the practical purpose of tiering the characters and events within that now-fictionalized narrative as they were originally established and experienced by its inhabitants. It doesn't deny its new, lesser status relative to the 1-A world.

Main problem is how the wiki would treat it. Again, he can have both, but depending on how do you consider the cosmology to be in and on itself. I'm simply iffy on the fact that there is no real way to unite both ways unless making some assumptions regarding the verse current standing.

I see your point about potential "iffiness," but I think crediting both hax isn't about uniting two ways of viewing the cosmology as much as it is about describing the two distinct outcomes of the character's singular, powerful act.

The feat described is:

1. Reality A (formerly prime) was demoted to a fictional/inferior status.
2. Reality B (formerly non-existent/fictional) was created/elevated to a prime, transcendent status.

"Qualitative inferiority inducement" describes outcome #1. "Qualitative superiority inducement" (or Creation of a 1-A structure + Conceptual Manipulation) describes outcome #2. These aren't assumptions about the verse's current standing so much as direct acknowledgments of what the character did.

In the end, however it's formally listed is up to whoever(I really don't know), but the character did make one thing lesser and another thing greater in an absolute, qualitative sense

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

by following the narrative on how it is presented.
I would assume it would be a 1-A scenario.

Even furthermore if the all of reality scenario thing included the very idea of Space and time as a whole. (this would require more context from the franchise.)

Technically, our qualification for 1-A is more than just R>F and more so transcendence, such as BDE Type 2 if there isn't much more context regarding the origin of the guy who did it.
I would lean more to the 1-A side of the 2 question.

One other factor that could change this, though, is how the story presents the whole switch of the main universe moving forward.

Either way. This should be discussed in a case-by-case scenario, but I would lean more to 1-A.

As for hax we used to just put it as higher-dimensional manipulation. At least until ontological manip becomes a thing.
tbh anyone who can manip ontologically should be given 1-A since it targets the quality of said things rather than its quantity or size making it most possibly be able to ignore anything up to low 1-A

 

[SweetDao]

You're right, from the perspective of the newly established 1-A reality, the old universe is now ontologically equivalent to fiction (and thus, 11-C from that higher vantage point). My point about it being "functionally Low 2-C" was purely for the practical purpose of tiering the characters and events within that now-fictionalized narrative as they were originally established and experienced by its inhabitants. It doesn't deny its new, lesser status relative to the 1-A world.

I mean, frankly, the "higher world" would be more likely a "regular" Low 2-C world more than a 1-A world, with or without reality equalization.

"Qualitative inferiority inducement" describes outcome #1. "Qualitative superiority inducement" (or Creation of a 1-A structure + Conceptual Manipulation) describes outcome #2. These aren't assumptions about the verse's current standing so much as direct acknowledgments of what the character did.

Again, acknowledging both abilities is fine, it's what happened after all. But depending on how it would (hypothetically, not intending to do so) be indexed, one would obviously need to be either removed or be situational as I outlined in the OP.

 

[SweetDao]

I would assume it would be a 1-A scenario.

Even furthermore if the all of reality scenario thing included the very idea of Space and time as a whole. (this would require more context from the franchise.)

That much is fine, really, depending on how you interpret the thing. Does it mean you technically assume the old reality didn't "lose any quality" despite becoming fiction then? It's the only reasonable way to give "1-A" for the higher world, me think.

Technically, our qualification for 1-A is more than just R>F and more so transcendence, such as BDE Type 2 if there isn't much more context regarding the origin of the guy who did it.

Pretty strong dude who's kinda an outlier really, but that's not really important here since I'm just interested in the postulate rather than the "how did he do that", unless it's very much needed for the questions at hand.

One other factor that could change this, though, is how the story presents the whole switch of the main universe.

Could you explain this part?

Either way. This should be discussed in a case-by-case scenario, but I would lean more to 1-A.

So, you're taking the stance of the "Old" reality, being at first Low 2-C and now that it is fictional, it would still be Low 2-C? So the whole "lower the quality of the reality" wouldn't really be taken into account, no?

As for hax we used to just put it as higher-dimensional manipulation. At least until ontological manip becomes a thing.
tbh anyone who can manip ontologically should be given 1-A since it targets the quality of said things rather than its quantity or size making it most possibly be able to ignore anything up to low 1-A

Obviously the name of the hax is irrelevant, it's more the applications and if both are possible at the same regarding that scenario.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Could you explain this part?

Certain story direction where the Old reality gets forgotten or no longer relevant, etc. But if it remains and are now being observed or still has focus on the story after being reduced to fiction I still believed it should still be the Base reality

So, you're taking the stance of the "Old" reality, being at first Low 2-C and now that it is fictional, it would still be Low 2-C? So the whole "lower the quality of the reality" wouldn't really be taken into account, no?

Yeah. Since you did mention it's still being observed, meaning it remains relevant in the story

Obviously the name of the hax is irrelevant, it's more the applications and if both are possible at the same regarding that scenario.

It should be possible bothway IMO unless stated otherwise

 

[Zeldris98764]

I mean, frankly, the "higher world" would be more likely a "regular" Low 2-C world more than a 1-A world, with or without reality equalization.

Ah. My understanding of the scenario was that the act of "transforming all the reality into fiction" while "making fiction (a 'higher world') into reality" established a genuine Reality-Fiction Transcendence. If the new "higher world" (Universe B) views the old reality (Universe A) as actual fiction in the same way a reader views a story, and is ontologically superior to it as a result, that's typically grounds for 1-A for Universe B.

If Universe B is only Low 2-C, then its relationship with Universe A (now "fiction") wouldn't be a true R>F qualitative transcendence in the VSBW sense; it'd be more like one Low 2-C universe having a peculiar, perhaps meta-narrative, view of another. For Universe B to be only Low 2-C, the "transformation" would have to be less about a fundamental ontological shift and more about, say, trapping Universe A in a storybook within another Low 2-C framework.

The initial premise ("transformed all the reality into fiction while making fiction... into reality") sounded like a fundamental reordering of the prime ontological layer, which is what usually leads to 1-A for the new "real" layer.

Again, acknowledging both abilities is fine, it's what happened after all. But depending on how it would (hypothetically, not intending to do so) be indexed, one would obviously need to be either removed or be situational as I outlined in the OP.

Mmm, I get it about practical indexing. However, if the character did perform both actions – fundamentally demoting an existing reality's ontological status AND creating/elevating another to a qualitatively superior, transcendent status – then the profile should aim to reflect the full scope of that power.

Perhaps "situational" isn't the only outcome if they are distinct applications. For instance:

• Ability 1 (e.g., Qualitative Inferiority Inducement / Conceptual Manipulation over Reality): Used to demote existing realities.
• Ability 2 (e.g., Creation of Transcendent Structures / Qualitative Superiority Inducement): Used to establish new, ontologically superior realities.

These wouldn't necessarily be "situational" in the sense of only working under specific conditions, but rather different facets of their reality-altering capabilities that can be applied. If the interpretation of the feat does lead to a 1-A higher world, then the hax would be commensurate with that scale and describe how such a state was achieved and can be manipulated.

Ultimately, if the new "higher world" is indeed 1-A due to a genuine R>F transcendence over the old (formerly Low 2-C) reality, then the hax describing the creation/establishment of that 1-A world and the demotion of the old one seem appropriate and not inherently contradictory for indexing. The core of the issue seems to hinge on whether the described transformation results in a true 1-A structure or just a different configuration of Low 2-C ones.

I am a bit drowsy at the moment so I might be misunderstanding some things, so apologies in advance if that's the case.

 

[SweetDao]

Certain story direction where the Old reality gets forgotten or no longer relevant, etc. But if it remains and are now being observed or still has focus on the story after being reduced to fiction I still believed it should still be the Base reality

It is still relevant since all the story is situated in that particular universe. But, well, it still technically lowered its qualities?

Yeah. Since you did mention it's still being observed, meaning it remains relevant in the story

Obviously, one could say it's the main plot of the story as a whole.

It should be possible bothway IMO unless stated otherwise

So, we would assume the guy DID create a higher world AND lowered the actual reality, yet, the actual reality wouldn't be of lower quality (11-C) but Low 2-A and the higher world wouldn't just be Low 2-C but 1-A? Weird.

If Universe B is only Low 2-C, then its relationship with Universe A (now "fiction") wouldn't be a true R>F qualitative transcendence in the VSBW sense; it'd be more like one Low 2-C universe having a peculiar, perhaps meta-narrative, view of another. For Universe B to be only Low 2-C, the "transformation" would have to be less about a fundamental ontological shift and more about, say, trapping Universe A in a storybook within another Low 2-C framework.

The difference between 11-C and Low 2-C is a qualitative one.

Ultimately, if the new "higher world" is indeed 1-A due to a genuine R>F transcendence over the old (formerly Low 2-C) reality, then the hax describing the creation/establishment of that 1-A world and the demotion of the old one seem appropriate and not inherently contradictory for indexing. The core of the issue seems to hinge on whether the described transformation results in a true 1-A structure or just a different configuration of Low 2-C ones.

That point is irrelevant, because be it Low 2-C or 1-A for the higher world, from a technical standpoint, it would still be a higher quality.

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

It's a anti feat for R > F if doesn't become fictional himself since he was also a part of reality, for me it seems more like 'immersion' for the old reality plus 'subjective reality' for the new reality.
Calling it R > F transcendence will only cause a infinite loop hole.

 

[SweetDao]

It's a anti feat for R > F if doesn't become fictional himself since he was also a part of reality, for me it seems more like 'immersion' for the old reality plus 'subjective reality' for the new reality.

I mean, not really, he's an outlier in and on itself, but that's not the topic once again, be it 1-A, Low 2-C or whatever, it's fine. Alo, how would it be immersion? In what would the "old reality" be immersed in? "Fiction" itself? I don't think that works.

Calling it R > F transcendence will only cause a infinite loop hole.

I mean, depend on the perspective you take, as I stated in the OP. If you assume the world is "Low 2-C" still, he created a qualitatively superior realm, if you think the opposite, then he relegated the "old reality" as an 11-C entity.

 

[OmniScalator]

Well, here is my opinion

First one : How would we treat the "baseline reality" here? The universe in which the story develop is either 11-C or, if we admit baseline reality, just a regular Low 2-C realm. Technically, even if it's "11-C" we would just treat is as an equalized reality (I think? Since it's 100% of the story itself, it would be weird to rate it 11-C, but maybe I'm wrong).

to avoid confusion let's call previously real and now fictional reality as "A", and previously fictional but currently real reality as "B".

Since we know that he actually made reality A into an inferior reality and not only made fictional reality B to be superior, i think that baseline reality A would better suited to be 11-C since it is qualitatively inferior to it's previous state which was low 2-C, and I am little confused about this new state of reality B but if we know that this new state of reality B is currently on the level where reality A used to be then this new state would be low 2-C.

Second one : Which hax should we give him? It's pretty obvious that he either has "qualitative inferiority inducement" or "qualitative superiority inducement" (Technically discussed around here). Depending on how we treat the "baseline reality" I feel like he would get only one of them, but I wonder if there is a case in which he would get both.
Be it fiction or reality, they are as "he will them to be", so even the "qualitative superiority" hax would be fine. (and in any case, just assume it's fine/there is no anti-feat regardless, it's not meaningful for the questions).

The biggest problem with the second question is that, if we end up with only one of the two "application" of his power, it would inevitably mean we're purposely ignoring one of them. If we assume the "old reality" becomes 11-C, then it means he only has "qualitative inferiority inducement" while ignoring he technically created a "higher world". If we assume the "old reality" as Low 2-C, then it means he only has "qualitative superiority inducement" for creating a 1-A realm, but it would ignore the fact it transformed the old reality as a fiction.

Hope it's clear enough.

Well since he did both of it, in my opinion this guy simply should get both of these separate abilities ("qualitative inferiority inducement" & "qualitative superiority inducement") as we are considering both of these tasks to be separate, but if we want to cover both of them under same umbrella we can give him something like "Qualitative size manipulation"

 

[FinePoint]

Generally, we treat the baseline universe as whatever universe is given the most narrative focus, which sounds like the now 'fictional' one in this context.

The hax can just be a very extreme version of Statistics Amplification/Reduction (Nerfing Low 2-C to 11-C and buffing 11-C to Low 2-C.)

 

[SweetDao]

Generally, we treat the baseline universe as whatever universe is given the most narrative focus, which sounds like the now 'fictional' one in this context.

So, it would still be "11-C" technically but we would accept it as Low 2-C, for example?

The hax can just be a very extreme version of Statistics Amplification/Reduction (turning Low 2-C into 11-C and 11-C into Low 2-C.)

So, you would be "fine" with him having both of them, even if tiering wise, we consider that the now fictional one...isn't really fictional?

 

[FinePoint]

So, it would still be "11-C" technically but we would accept it as Low 2-C, for example?

We would consider it Low 2-C via verse equalization and for match ups, yes, even if it's technically 11-C in context.

So, you would be "fine" with him having both of them, even if tiering wise, we consider that the now fictional one...isn't really fictional?

Well, which is which doesn't actually matter for the sake of giving him the ability, so yes.

 

[SweetDao]

Well, which is which doesn't actually matter for the sake of giving him the ability, so yes.

Of course, but I mean, since he "turned a real world into fiction" and "turned fiction into a real world" would both application be accepted? Or only one of them?

 

[OmniScalator]

Of course, but I mean, since he "turned a real world into fiction" and "turned fiction into a real world" would both application be accepted? Or only one of them?

Accepting both is most sensible imo

 

[FinePoint]

Of course, but I mean, since he "turned a real world into fiction" and "turned fiction into a real world" would both application be accepted? Or only one of them?

Both of them.