Qualitative Superiority Equalization

[Bomboopengin]

This post will cover several questions that I have regarding the wiki's approach to qualitative superiority in order to clear my doubts,

1) When proposing the tier for outer, is it ever analyzed how the character is able to act, think or move when they are certainly above the concepts of time and space? Within context there can be explanations to this like: the character abides to higher form of laws; is under the influence of meta-time and space etc.? This wouldn't be examined when creating the fundamental conditions for the tier and only when trying to scale a certain character, right? If so, since the the qualifiers of the tier don't deal with how the characters operate, any case would be an element of the tier?

2) Would this mean to evaluate the qualitative transcendence between different verses we would need to use verse equalization? Since this method allows us to investigate different superiorities(different because what they transcend are different realities) between verses under the same framework(tiering system)? Otherwise one can not understand the relationship between 5 layers in outer in verse A and 1 layer in outer in verse B.

3) Then is the standard assumption in a cross-verse battle between two outer characters that even if one of them can actually act because of existence of meta-time and space and other due to a different type of law that allows action, both would be considered to be able to act due to some unified law which allows both of them to interact with each other?

These are probably easy questions to answer but I really wanted to know the explanations the wiki has to offer. Also I accidentally lost what I typed by entering a different page, so there might be some stuff that I have left out mentioning,

Regardless of that thank you for answering

 

[Voidnether]

1. No, they'd just have to destroy a structure that's the equivalent to 1-A. That's how tiers are given specifically.

2. No, verse equalization doesn't work like that and if there's a verse who's 5 times above the baseline, it wouldn't be equalized to the verse who's just 1 times above the baseline. Simply put, a matchup between them is unfair.

3. As long as they're on the same plane of existence, yeah (Excluding things like NEP / Acausality).

 

[Bomboopengin]

1. No, they'd just have to destroy a structure that's the equivalent to 1-A. That's how tiers are given specifically.

2. No, verse equalization doesn't work like that and if there's a verse who's 5 times above the baseline, it wouldn't be equalized to the verse who's just 1 times above the baseline. Simply put, a matchup between them is unfair.

It seems I couldn't clearly explain what I wanted to.

1. I was not talking about how a character would scale to 1-A, but rather if there is an objective reason that these characters are able to act, move and think at all. Since each of these notions require time normally but a 1-A character transcends time and space, so that begs the question of how they are able to act without being related to spacetime. For that, I gave explanations such as meta-time for example.

Having no objective reason wouldn't be a problem since the system established doesn't deal with this question(it doesn't need to as this is not it's purpose). Therefore, in every context any given explanation(excluding disqualifiers) to why outer characters can act can be attributed as an element of the 1-A set. I was asking if that is the case.

2. I didn't try to argument that verse equalization should make 5 layers equal to 1. Perhaps another example would showcase it better:

Character A has qualitative superiority over Realm A. Character B, from a different verse, has qualitative superiority over Realm B, from the verse of Character B. Both Realm A and B are non 1-A.

The method equalizes them into being at the same level because it treats their transcendence as of the same value even though the structures they transcend are different(only identical from scaling lens).

Basically it was just a question to lead up to the third one.

 

[Bernkastelll]

rather if there is an objective reason that these characters are able to act, move and think at all. Since each of these notions require time normally

it's fiction

 

[Bomboopengin]

it's fiction

well then the term objective is wrong, here I meant axiomatic to the system. So an explanation/reason/condition that pass for every example. Although I am not sure if it is because of that u said its fiction. Would u care to explain?

 

[SweetDao]

I was not talking about how a character would scale to 1-A, but rather if there is an objective reason that these characters are able to act, move and think at all. Since each of these notions require time normally but a 1-A character transcends time and space, so that begs the question of how they are able to act without being related to spacetime. For that, I gave explanations such as meta-time for example.

It's not because an individual or a realm is 1-A that it is necessarily devoided of such concepts. Any 1-A realm (deeply explained or not) can be assumed to work on their own laws/concepts which can include space and time (or not).

Character A has qualitative superiority over Realm A. Character B, from a different verse, has qualitative superiority over Realm B, from the verse of Character B. Both Realm A and B are non 1-A.

The method equalizes them into being at the same level because it treats their transcendence as of the same value even though the structures they transcend are different(only identical from scaling lens).

I mean yeah? What's the problem? In your example, both Realm A of Verse 1 and Realm B of verse 2 would be the baseline reality. Maybe Realm A and B have differences within their own stories (maybe one is a multiverse while the other is merely a single universe) but their cosmological location is the same.

The method equalizes them into being at the same level because it treats their transcendence as of the same value even though the structures they transcend are different(only identical from scaling lens).

I don't understand your point. You're saying "we're equalizing them when they are different, but they are identical in term of scaling", isn't it the whole point of the wiki? The intrinsic difference of each realm is of little relevance if both of them fall into the same categories.

 

[Bomboopengin]

It's not because an individual or a realm is 1-A that it is necessarily devoided of such concepts. Any 1-A realm (deeply explained or not) can be assumed to work on their own laws/concepts which can include space and time (or not).

Yeah okay that answers my question. So the wiki indeed allows such assumption. The proposition of the tier does not bother with how the individual or the realm would work, because it just introduces certain conditions to be met. It analyzes the material by these criteria and does not put any limitations on how they would be able to operate(act, think, move), leaving room for any explanation.

I mean yeah? What's the problem? In your example, both Realm A of Verse 1 and Realm B of verse 2 would be the baseline reality. Maybe Realm A and B have differences within their own stories (maybe one is a multiverse while the other is merely a single universe) but their cosmological location is the same.

There is no problem. I just wanted a confirmation to that part so that I can ask the third question.

I don't understand your point. You're saying "we're equalizing them when they are different, but they are identical in term of scaling", isn't it the whole point of the wiki? The intrinsic difference of each realm is of little relevance if both of them fall into the same categories.

Again I was not trying to be antagonistic. Treat it as me trying to understand if that indeed the idea and function of verse equalization at the level of outer.

My intention from the beginning was to clarify if what I have understood from the tiering system aligns with the tiering system.

 

[SweetDao]

Yeah okay that answers my question. So the wiki indeed allows such assumption. The proposition of the tier does not bother with how the individual or the realm would work, because it just introduces certain conditions to be met. It analyzes the material by these criteria and does not put any limitations on how they would be able to operate(act, think, move), leaving room for any explanation.

Yeah, exactly, that a realm is a "rectangle" or a "square" isn't of much use if they both fit the 1-A prerequisites. Of course, they can have certain particularities, such has the first realm giving a certain type of energy (along with some hax) while the second one giving something completely different (or nothing at all).

Also, unless I'm mistaken, you chose 1-A realms and such as your example, but wouldn't a singular realm "with no time and space" poses the same problem to you, technically?

There is no problem. I just wanted a confirmation to that part so that I can ask the third question.

Oh no, I meant "problem" in the sense that I didn't understand exactly what you were going for, no worries.

Again I was not trying to be antagonistic. Treat it as me trying to understand if that indeed the idea and function of verse equalization at the level of outer.

My intention from the beginning was to clarify if what I have understood from the tiering system aligns with the tiering system.

Don't worry, you're not antagonistic at all, and I apologize if perhaps my wording might have given you that impression. But yeah, of course, I've just seen you as someone asking questions, nothing more and nothing less.

Well, as long as you understood everything, all is good.

 

[Bomboopengin]

Also, unless I'm mistaken, you chose 1-A realms and such as your example, but wouldn't a singular realm "with no time and space" poses the same problem to you, technically?

Good point. The idea was that in order to categorize certain characters(in this case outer ones) we select a certain aspect of them, that is the "qualitative superiority". There were some people that I have been debating which did not accept outer as a tier since they believe that such character should not be able to act at all. However, the system only checks the qualitative superiority and does not need to have a relative objective reasoning for how the outer characters should move.

So, something like how empirical methods does not answer every question. Here, in order to categorize, the system does not need to answer this question in a specific way and actually allows any kind of answer to it(again unless it is somehow a disqualifier).

Then comes a point on how to equalize different answers to how they are able to move in a cross-verse battle, which I think should be possible by equalizing these two answers in a unifying one for example.(Literally why VE exists)

In conclusion, the tier itself does not become incoherent by failing to give a definitive answer to how outer characters can act, move and etc. This should be obvious but I wanted to be sure of my reasoning being the actual reason. Also I am happy that people respond so please don't hold back.