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[Staff Thread] Putting Standards on Reactions Calculations

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KingTempest

KingTempest

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I have a problem that isn't even considered on this wiki, and it comes to perception calculations.
By the way can someone please add the Reactions and Perceptions to this or this? There's no reason why that shouldn't be considered.

When it comes to projectile dodging, we have a whole page when it comes to those calculations. But since we don't have that for reactions, we get outlandish calculations like this or this (yes I'm the one who calced the second one), where we see any distance a projectile is away from its victim and we just say "divide speed by distance to get timeframe, and that's their reactions".

Examples​

CA (Character A) fires 2 Flintlock Pistols at Character B and C, both of them shoots bullets moving at 253 m/s. CA is 10 meters away from CB and CC.

CB (Character B) is capable of noticing the bullet as the bullet reaches 50 centimeters away from the gun.
The bullet moved 50 centimeters, or .5 meters, at 253 m/s before CB could notice that it even moved. 0.5 / 253 = 0.001976284585 seconds.
Supersonic Perception Time.
With that, CB has much more time to react and block/dodge/intercept the bullet.
Example of that would be the High Hypersonic+ result method of something like this.

CC (Character C) is capable of noticing the bullet as the bullet reaches 50 centimeters away from CC's face.
The bullet moved until it was 50 centimeters away from CC, or 9.5 meters, before CC could notice that it even moved. 9.5 / 253 = 0.0375494071 seconds.
Superhuman Perception Time.
With that, CB has much less time to react and block/dodge/intercept the bullet.
Example of that would be the Hypersonic result method of something like this..

Issue​

What a lot of calculations are doing now is the CC example. Characters seem stagnant while projectiles like bullets, sound, lightning, and even light, manage to reach extremely far distances, then when it gets to their face they start to react, and instead of using the distance that the attack travelled to find perception, they use the distance that the attack hasn't even covered yet.

My calculation utilizes someone who gets completely blitzed by light start to notice that the light is attacking them as the light is 0.022640504897002 meters away, and because of the lazy "distance / timeframe", I got results over 10x the speed of what they were reacting to, which makes no sense.

Counter to that​

Things that we utilize like the average perception time says things like a peak human can perceive objects in 13/1000 of a second, or 0.013 seconds, while average humans can do so in 1/10, or 0.1 seconds.
With things like bullet speed, using the flintlock from above, that means peak humans can perceive bullets as they've moved 3.289 meters, while regular humans can perceive things as they've moved 25.3 meters.

Even lightning moving 440,000 m/s. A peak human can react to lightning as it moves 5720 meters away. Why should we utilize the distance away that they start to react, not the distance the attack is away from them before they move.

The only time you should use the distance that the projectile was away from the character when he/she started to move is when it's a dodging feat and you need to ratio their distances for their combat speeds, not something like perception, saying that a lightning bolt managed to travel so much distance to where it was a meter away from your face before you could react, so then say 1/440000, or 2.27272727e-6 seconds, making your perception even superior than the time it too for the the bolt to travel distances it hasn't even travelled yet.

Formula​

I propose a formula can be added to the Projectile Dodging Feats, maybe a subsection for dodging.

[ (Distance the projectile was away from the character when it was first fired in meters) - (Distance the projectile was away from the character when he/she started to move in meters) ] / (Speed of projectile in meters/second) = Perception Time of Character in seconds
 
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This is interesting. Would you be able to produce a couple of calcs (in a sandbox if that's alright) of this formula in action with a couple different real feats, as examples of it in action?
 
Not sure if that'd work solely for the fact that velocity drop is a thing.

Chances are, bullet velocity drop takes several dozens of meters to trigger (Even more so for high-caliber rounds like rifle rounds and somesuch which can retain their velocity over longer distances), but with stuff like lightning and light, that's even less likely given that they have little to no velocity drop over the course of their journey.

Normally speaking I'd only use the "distance between character and projectile when the projectile was first fired" if we have no other scan where we can reliably scale the projectile's distance from the character when said character begain to move, especially if it's over a short-enough distance where velocity drop wouldn't pan out, but it'd work for long distances if there is no scan of the projectile being that close to the character.

However, even then, when we have scans for the projectile being mere centimeters away from their face (While also having some idea about the distance covered by said projectile), I'd still choose the projectile-to-character distance when the character started moving, and then accounting for velocity drop at that distance to keep things more realistic, at least for bullets and stuff that actually fall under the bullet drop phenomena.
 
Damage3245 said:
This is interesting. Would you be able to produce a couple of calcs (in a sandbox if that's alright) of this formula in action with a couple different real feats, as examples of it in action?
Click to expand...
I would need to find videos of them in action. This isn't really a "assume distance" type of thing. I would need instances of it happening with things like arrows, bullets, etc.
KLOL506 said:
Not sure if that'd work solely for the fact that velocity drop is a thing.
etc...
Click to expand...
I think that you're referencing dodging, because the "projectile-to-character distance when the character started moving" is completely useless when it comes to perception calculations.

"Projectile-to-character distance when the character started moving" is basically a distance that a projectile hasn't even covered yet, and finding a timeframe that hasn't even happened yet, to account for when a character starts to react.

If they start to react when the projectile is "projectile-to-character distance when the character started moving" meters away from the character, why is that distance being used to calculate when they start to react?
 
As for the reaction aspect, that'd be affected too by velocity drop, though I'm not sure how to account for drop with the case of perception speed, since no one bothers to add perception speed to literally any character these days.
 
KingTempest said:
I think that you're referencing dodging, because the "projectile-to-character distance when the character started moving" is completely useless when it comes to perception calculations.
Click to expand...
Oh, I see, my bad.

KingTempest said:
"Projectile-to-character distance when the character started moving" is basically a distance that a projectile hasn't even covered yet, and finding a timeframe that hasn't even happened yet, to account for when a character starts to react.

If they start to react when the projectile is "projectile-to-character distance when the character started moving" meters away from the character, why is that distance being used to calculate when they start to react?
Click to expand...
Ah, I understand. This is about the perception stuff.

Well the tricky thing is, it's hard to gauge if you haven't already locked on to the gun barrel or starting point of the attack and are anticipating it coming towards you, so you don't start to move until and unless you finally see the projectile come charging at you.
 
KLOL506 said:
As for the reaction aspect, that'd be affected too by velocity drop, though I'm not sure how to account for drop with the case of perception speed, since no one bothers to add perception speed to literally any character these days.
Click to expand...
They'd both be affected by velocity drop, but we don't really... calculate velocity drop that often, do we?

Is there a way to account for that? Because I don't see a formula to account for final velocity for shit like bullets.
KLOL506 said:
Oh, I see, my bad.

Ah, I understand. This is about the perception stuff.

Well the tricky thing is, it's hard to gauge if you haven't already locked on to the gun barrel or starting point of the attack and are anticipating it coming towards you, so you don't start to move until and unless you finally see the projectile come charging at you.
Click to expand...
It's all good, and that's the whole point.
You don't start to move until and unless you finally see the projectile come charging at you
Click to expand...
Some attacks are so fast that people aren't even able to see the projectile coming at them
Some attacks are fast to where they're so far away to where they get a centimeter away from your face before you start to react.

Issue is that people account for the final distance.

Like the lightning example. If lightning travels such a far distance to where it reaches a centimeter away from your face, then you start to perceive it
It produces things like "1 cm / speed of lightning", or "0.01 m / 440,000 m/s" = 2.27272727e-8 seconds (Relativistic)

You're now getting relativistic reactions for being too slow to notice MHS+ lightning until it's a centimeter away from your face?
 
Interested in the proposal, I've had my silent gripes with the couple of instances of what you're describing (projectile approaches while character is static, then when the projectile is upon them, they show the character moving fuckloads). Good discussion to have, I'm in agreement with your proposal for now.
 
KingTempest said:
They'd both be affected by velocity drop, but we don't really... calculate velocity drop that often, do we?
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, yeah, we can really only use velocity drop for bullets and other IRL projectiles that we shoot to kill, and we normally use official charts for said bullet drop.

KingTempest said:
Is there a way to account for that? Because I don't see a formula to account for final velocity for shit like bullets.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, no, we have to rely on official bullet-drop charts available online, and ultimately, velocity drop only works on these projectiles. Natural phenomena like meteors (Both ablation and re-entry), lightning and light? Nope, can't use velocity drop on those.

KingTempest said:
It's all good, and that's the whole point.
Click to expand...
Aight.

KingTempest said:
Some attacks are so fast that people aren't even able to see the projectile coming at them
Some attacks are fast to where they're so far away to where they get a centimeter away from your face before you start to react.

Issue is that people account for the final distance.

Like the lightning example. If lightning travels such a far distance to where it reaches a centimeter away from your face, then you start to perceive it
It produces things like "1 cm / speed of lightning", or "0.01 m / 440,000 m/s" = 2.27272727e-8 seconds (Relativistic)

You're now getting relativistic reactions for being too slow to notice MHS+ lightning until it's a centimeter away from your face?
Click to expand...
Ah. I see. Well in that case, this seems to make sense.
 
KingTempest said:
Things that we utilize like the average perception time says things like a peak human can perceive objects in 13/1000 of a second, or 0.013 seconds, while average humans can do so in 1/10, or 0.1 seconds.
With things like bullet speed, using the flintlock from above, that means peak humans can perceive bullets as they've moved 3.289 meters, while regular humans can perceive things as they've moved 25.3 meters.
Click to expand...
I wish to point out that the page says that we don't use those values for calcs, because this type of reasoning isn't quite true. (There was a thread on that somewhere...)


Anyway, on the topic itself, I see the issue. I always assumed calcs that don't have the common sense to do that would just get rejected, because it's an obvious flaw.
Of course, it should strictly speaking not be when it was fired, but specifically when the projectile entered the Field of View of the character or something. Like, the time starts when the character is physically able to notice it. Makes a difference for some cases.
(This could also include hearing and aim dodging could be considered as well)
But yeah, usually it works out to when fired.
 
DontTalkDT said:
I wish to point out that the page says that we don't use those values for calcs, because this type of reasoning isn't quite true. (There was a thread on that somewhere...)
Click to expand...
Ngl I didn't even know that
DontTalkDT said:
Anyway, on the topic itself, I see the issue. I always assumed calcs that don't have the common sense to do that would just get rejected, because it's an obvious flaw.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately a lot of people (including some CGMs) don't understand the logic behind perception calcs. I've seen calcs accepted cause of that, and it's just a lack of education on perception calculations.
Shit I learned all the calc methods I used from the reference for common feats yet there isn't a single perception feat there, also on the calculations page, lack of both.
DontTalkDT said:
Of course, it should strictly speaking not be when it was fired, but specifically when the projectile entered the Field of View of the character or something. Like, the time starts when the character is physically able to notice it. Makes a difference for some cases.
(This could also include hearing and aim dodging could be considered as well)
But yeah, usually it works out to when fired.
Click to expand...
Yeah I only put when fired cause to account for when it enters field of vision is a monstrous pain in the ass, but most people get shot and react to things they see (in fiction).

I guess other methods could be used for certain cases
 
KingTempest said:
Like the lightning example. If lightning travels such a far distance to where it reaches a centimeter away from your face, then you start to perceive it
It produces things like "1 cm / speed of lightning", or "0.01 m / 440,000 m/s" = 2.27272727e-8 seconds (Relativistic)

You're now getting relativistic reactions for being too slow to notice MHS+ lightning until it's a centimeter away from your face?
Click to expand...
Yeah, that had been a finicky deal. I mean if you can perceive lightning, that is Subsonic+ perception right off the bat (given lightning should come from about 2000 meters into the atmosphere at least), but beyond that? A rule of thumb I like to take into account is after the time frame is calculated, you calculate the distance the character moved in order to dodge or counter so-and-so. The mofo in the above example wouldn't be getting Relativistic unless they move 68.135 cm within the timeframe above.
KingTempest said:
I propose a formula can be added to the Projectile Dodging Feats, maybe a subsection for dodging.

[ (Distance the projectile was away from the character when it was first fired in meters) - (Distance the projectile was away from the character when he/she started to move in meters) ] * (Speed of projectile in meters/second) = Perception Time of Character in seconds
Click to expand...
Also, the formula you proposed is just straight-up wrong. I have two examples here. Character A would perceive the bullet when it's 0.5 meters from their face while Character B can perceive the same bullet 2 meters away. Both bullets were fired at 100 meters distance. Doing that leads to this:

Character A: (100-0.5)*253=25173.5 seconds
Character B: (100-2)*253=24795 seconds

That is just wrong, man. More accurately, it should go like this.

[ (Distance the projectile was away from the character when it was first fired in meters) - (Distance the projectile was away from the character when he/she started to move in meters) ] / (Speed of projectile in meters/second) = Perception Time of Character in seconds

In this case, it'd be more like this:

Character A: (100-0.5)/253=0.393280632 seconds
Character B: (100-2)/253=0.387351779 seconds

For the lightning example above, perceiving it is like this:

(2000-0.01)/440000=0.004545432 seconds
 
Flashlight237 said:
Also, the formula you proposed is just straight-up wrong. I have two examples here. Character A would perceive the bullet when it's 0.5 meters from their face while Character B can perceive the same bullet 2 meters away. Both bullets were fired at 100 meters distance. Doing that leads to this:

Character A: (100-0.5)*253=25173.5 seconds
Character B: (100-2)*253=24795 seconds

That is just wrong, man. More accurately, it should go like this.

[ (Distance the projectile was away from the character when it was first fired in meters) - (Distance the projectile was away from the character when he/she started to move in meters) ] / (Speed of projectile in meters/second) = Perception Time of Character in seconds

In this case, it'd be more like this:

Character A: (100-0.5)/253=0.393280632 seconds
Character B: (100-2)/253=0.387351779 seconds

For the lightning example above, perceiving it is like this:

(2000-0.01)/440000=0.004545432 seconds
Click to expand...
I said times instead of divided by. That's it.

Your units wouldn't even produce seconds if I multiplied like that. It would've just been m2/s
 
I see what you're saying King it makes sense, I'll sit and wait for word for those more experienced than myself as some good comments have already been given
 
Well, thanks to the formula being fixed, I can wholeheartedly say I agree with this. I had my many rodeos with calcs, some pretty unusual for this site, and my most recent calc had a speed feat that just didn't sit right with me. This thread gave me the opportunity to fix that.
 
Damage3245 said:
This is interesting. Would you be able to produce a couple of calcs (in a sandbox if that's alright) of this formula in action with a couple different real feats, as examples of it in action?
Click to expand...
Now that I did a little research

I can't find calcs of these

It's like calcing dodging. It needs its own calculations because there isn't a concrete speed for reacting to things cause of the millions of varying reaction times throughout the world

I could possibly calculate the best feats done by mankind for superhumans to scale above or something but other than that idk
 
Ah, I didn't mean generic values but examples of the proposed method being used in practice for feats.
 
I could probably make some basic stuff like

Reacting to light from the sun from sun to ground
Reacting to lightning from a cloud from cloud to ground
Reacting to a bullet before it leaves the chamber
 
Yeah, I have always had problems with people wanting to use the interpretation that grants the absolute highest results when it comes to projectile feats that happen in comics. Given I was someone who stresses that aim dodging is the most logical standard assumption to bullet reaction feats that basically happened completely off panel where you cut from shot not yet fired to shot fired and missed.

But standard assumptions that a character moved multitudes faster than the projectile they reacted to despite making no sense for a character to just wait and then suddenly move X times faster to react to it is very weird unless we specifically seem step by step processes of that actually happening. And as KLOL said, initial velocity =/= average velocity for bullets and stuff; though lightning bolts and laser lights are different.

Still, one doesn't need to be faster than a projectile to dodge it if they either were warned ahead of time or had didn't need to move that much distance to the side relative to the projectile covering a big distance.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Yeah, I have always had problems with people wanting to use the interpretation that grants the absolute highest results when it comes to projectile feats that happen in comics. Given I was someone who stresses that aim dodging is the most logical standard assumption to bullet reaction feats that basically happened completely off panel where you cut from shot not yet fired to shot fired and missed.

But standard assumptions that a character moved multitudes faster than the projectile they reacted to despite making no sense for a character to just wait and then suddenly move X times faster to react to it is very weird unless we specifically seem step by step processes of that actually happening. And as KLOL said, initial velocity =/= average velocity for bullets and stuff; though lightning bolts and laser lights are different.

Still, one doesn't need to be faster than a projectile to dodge it if they either were warned ahead of time or didn't need to move that much distance to the side relative to the projectile covering a big distance.
Click to expand...
Yeah. I mean just because you moved two meters when a bullet moved one meter after seeing the same bullet two meters away from you after being shot from ten meters away doesn't mean you reacted to a bullet moving two meters. It means you reacted to a bullet having moved eight meters, even though you moved two meters when the bullet moved one meter.
 
Do take heed that this is not about changing how we do Projectile Dodging Feats. That was my misconception at first. Projectile Dodging Feats standards will remain unchanged.

This thread is merely to figure out Perception Timeframes from such feats. Reactions are basically the same as your standard Projectile Dodging Feats now.
 
I know the thread wasn't proposing a change in rules, but just pointing out how some calcs got some really weird results based on how certain methods were done.
 
What are the staff conclusions here so far?
 
I personally agree with these perception time calculation changes. However, I would like to put up a hypothetical.

Let's say a Glock bullet (around 375 m/s) comes barreling at you from a starting point of 5 meters. You start to react when the bullet is 1 meter from you, and yet you move an arm in a 180-degree swing (let's say about 2.2 meters for the swing).

Obviously, we have the perception time (0.01066666666666666666 seconds). However, what should I use for the arm swing? Should I use the time it takes for the bullet to move the remaining meter and calculate how fast the arm swing is from that, or should I use the calculated perception time (the time it took for the bullet to have moved 4 meters) and calculate the speed of the arm swing from that?
 
Flashlight237 said:
I personally agree with these perception time calculation changes. However, I would like to put up a hypothetical.

Let's say a Glock bullet (around 375 m/s) comes barreling at you from a starting point of 5 meters. You start to react when the bullet is 1 meter from you, and yet you move an arm in a 180-degree swing (let's say about 2.2 meters for the swing).

Obviously, we have the perception time (0.01066666666666666666 seconds). However, what should I use for the arm swing? Should I use the time it takes for the bullet to move the remaining meter and calculate how fast the arm swing is from that, or should I use the calculated perception time (the time it took for the bullet to have moved 4 meters) and calculate the speed of the arm swing from that?
Click to expand...
I'd rather we stick to the Projectile Dodging Feats formula for this, like I've already stated.

(Projectile Speed x Distance moved by character) / Distance between the bullet and character when the character started to move

(375 * 2.2) / 1 = 825 m/s.

So yeah, you should use the time it takes the bullet to move the remaining meter and calculate the speed of the arm swing from that, assuming no velocity drop of the bullet occurs (It definitely wouldn't be slowed down that much at that kind of range), but even assuming bullet velocity drop occurs at longer ranges we can just swap the 375 value with whatever the slowed down velocity at that distance would be.

The thread's objective is mostly to calculate the perception timeframes, not change how we do Projectile Dodging feats.
 
KLOL506 said:
I'd rather we stick to the Projectile Dodging Feats formula for this, like I've already stated.

(Projectile Speed x Distance moved by character) / Distance between the bullet and character when the character started to move

(375 * 2.2) / 1 = 825 m/s.

So yeah, you should use the time it takes the bullet to move the remaining meter and calculate the speed of the arm swing from that, assuming no velocity drop of the bullet occurs (It definitely wouldn't be slowed down that much at that kind of range), but even assuming bullet velocity drop occurs at longer ranges we can just swap the 375 value with whatever the slowed down velocity at that distance would be.

The thread's objective is mostly to calculate the perception timeframes, not change how we do Projectile Dodging feats.
Click to expand...
Aight, cool. Just wanted to get that off my chest before anything not-so-bright happens.
 
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