Problem Sleuth Downgrade

[Jobbo]

Mobster Kingpin is listed at Multiverse level based off this page, with the claim being that he condensed all possible futures, but that's just the time dilation that occurs at the event horizon of any black hole.


The other justification is gaining about a googol times the mass of the observable universe, but that isn't even High 3-A. (Also, the next line about him reaching a mass of a googolplex doesn't even mean anything. It's supposed to say he multiplied his mass by a factor of a googolplex)


And his final face is listed as 2-B for being far superior to his Low 2-C second face (which is also wrong) which makes no sense. First of all, his final form is unable to resist the gravity of the ultra massive black hole implying he has finite power, ie: 3-A. Secondly, none of his forms have ever displayed infinite power.


Lastly, his second face is at Low 2-C for splitting the universe in half, but the Problem Sleuth universe is finite in size. MK splits the universe in half, then Godhead PI sews it back together using a fan cord. The electricity passing through the fan cord is stated to be able to traverse entire span of the universe and back again in 36 billion years.

No being from this verse should exceed 3-A.

 

[Jobbo]

Bump.

 

[Jobbo]

Bump.

 

[Jobbo]

dunp.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Interesting points.

1. I don't think that time dilation can affect more than one space-time continuum, but I don't even see the claim that would make him 2-B there in the first place.

2. Sounds completely correct. Stupid high 3-A (high "3-A", not "High 3-A"), but it isn't infinite and certainly isn't relevant to a tier 2.

3. Also true. We don't treat the jump to Low 2-C to 2-B like a linear 1000, and even if we did that reasoning here is not good. Should be "at least" at maximum, not hard 2-B.

4. This seems Low 2-C. I assume he completely ripped the space-time continuum, not just physical space. If it is only physical, it is 3-A (maybe even 3-B?).

 

[Jobbo]

1. It's later made clear that it's merely time dilation when PS falls into the black hole. The exact line is " You watch universal events around you accelerate as it approaches." So there's indeed nothing to suggest compressing all possible futures or anything like that, rendering his 2-B rating null.


4.I don't think ripping a hole in spacetime counts as Low 2-C. And that region of spacetime isn't even completely destroyed since it pulls back to reveal superstrings and PI is later able to sew it back together easily.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Well generally affecting space-time at a nigh-universal level is Low 2-C. But if it wasn't fully destroyed then it would either be High 3-A or unquantifiable Space Manipulation.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Ripping the universe in half is, in context, an absolute minimum of High 3-A, since he's tearing the actual space-time continuum and revealing extra-dimensional superstrings.

The rest is fine, though.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Well generally affecting space-time at a nigh-universal level is Low 2-C. But if it wasn't fully destroyed then it would either be High 3-A or unquantifiable Space Manipulation.

For context:

• Universe is torn in half

• Result

 

[Jobbo]

But I don't see how affecting the spacetime of a finite universe is High 3-A. For instance, Vegeta completely obliterates a planet sized 4-D spacetime continuum but we don't treat that as High 3-A. This is just that on a larger scale, and he didn't even take out the whole universe.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Yikes. Man that is a trippy visual. Is it really High 3-A if he just exposed lower dimensional strings? Does that even make any freaking sense at all? How can ripping space-time reveal something 10^-30 meters long?

This feat is odd.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Jobbo

Affecting or destroying a 4-D continuum the size of a planet is not the same as destroying or affecting one around the size of the known universe. Not even in the same ballpark. Check the "High Universe level" description. We don't disqualify something like, say, DBS from High 3-A or Low 2-C because their normal universes are finite in size.

@Assalt

Because:

A. It's bullshit.

B. He ripped away the curtains of space and time, revealing extra-dimensional superstrings. Because Hussie needed something ridiculous to write. Which kinda just ties into A.

 

[Jobbo]

That doesn't seem right. So does Anime Buuhan's feat of nearly collapsing the universe count as Low 2-C? He clearly doesn't have infinte or 4 dimensional power.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

If that feat is as odd as it looks and is described, I'm going neutral. Could be High 3-A, could be Space hax.

Just to point out Spirit Beast was once High 3-A for a very similar feat. shameless plug to the matchup with it.

 

[Promestein]

It is actually a Low 2-C feat it's just an outlier.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Depends on if the physical universe was going to be destroyed or the entire space-time continuum. But it was essentially agreed to be an incredibly inconsistent Tier 3 suicide attack that nobody scales to and which nobody was going to survive, anyway.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

If that feat is as odd as it looks and is described, I'm going neutral. Could be High 3-A, could be Space hax.

I don't think we've ever counted direct attacks that involve a character ripping a universe in half as "space hax". Also said feat was done via raw power as his special move.

 

[Jobbo]

I just don't get how affecting finite space puts you in the same tier as beings with infinite power when you clearly don't have infinite power. There's nothing to suggest he was wielding higher dimensional power there either.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

So he's Palkia. Neat. Except instead of being cool and logical it is completely absurd and overdone. (My opinion; please don't crucify me if you like the verse or if I am missing the charm)

If we are OK with the superstring nonsense I am OK with High 3-A.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I just don't get how affecting finite space puts you in the same tier as beings with infinite power when you clearly don't have infinite power. There's nothing to suggest he was wielding higher dimensional power there either.

Because infinite 3-D power =/= finite 4-D power.

Also, he was directly stated to have pulled back the curtains of space-time and revealed an extra-dimensional realm, which is pretty explicitly higher-dimensional on a low level.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I just don't get how affecting finite space puts you in the same tier as beings with infinite power when you clearly don't have infinite power. There's nothing to suggest he was wielding higher dimensional power there either.

Ripping 4-D space apart on a nigh-universal level is much better than 3-D High 3-A, it is 4-D High 3-A.

The whole "smaller" 4-D continuums are usually just inconsistent with the series and would dubiously upgrade them, as is the case with the Spirit Beast.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

So he's Palkia. Neat. Except instead of being cool and logical it is completely absurd and overdone. (My opinion; please don't crucify me if you like the verse or if I am missing the charm)

Dude. He's a diabetic mobster who powers up at one point by fusing with himself. It's utter nonsense from its very inception.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Azzy

I changed "infinite 4-D" to "finite 4-D" for you, since I think that it what you meant. Infinite 4-D is 2-A

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Assalt

I was saying that having infinite 3-D power is not necessarily the same as having any particular level of 4-D power, hence why a character who could destroy a 3-D object of infinite size could not by default do something like rip the fabric of a 4-D continuum, but basically yeah.

 

[Jobbo]

Affecting spacetime doesn't necessarily mean 4-D power, though. There's plenty of instances of characters in fiction warping space with mere 3-D power, ie: Might Guy, Gotenks, Buu. Even if they became many orders of magnitude more powerful such that their spacetime rends spanned billions of light years, they'd still just have 3-D power, just ridiculously huge.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

That's not how it works. Affecting space-time itself is, by its very definition, not merely 3-D. It is just that in many cases, it is done on an extremely small scale, and only through very specific means.

 

[Jobbo]

Under that definition everything is 4-D. Anything with mass warps the spacetime continuum.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Under that definition everything is 4-D.

Yes. On a ridiculously small scale. Which is what I said before. However, a human body causing minor bends in a localized portion of space-time is not remotely the same as something fundamentally damaging this continuum or ripping it, in half. That is not a natural effect for something to have.

 

[Jobbo]

Then black holes, wormholes and high energy particle collisions still qualify, and they're certainly not superior to an infinite degree of conventional power.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yes, they do. But they are not High 3-A (though with something like a black hole, you would theoretically need "infinite durability" in a sense to survive the singularity).

I'm genuinely not sure how you are still confusing "destructive 4-D power on the scale of perhaps a solar system" with "destructive 4-D power on the scale of the entire known universe". Because this is extremely important if determining something's tier.

 

[Jobbo]

I just don't see the point in differentiating 4-D and 3-D power in this manner. They might as well be one and the same, absurd amounts of energy/mass are fully capable of distorting spacetime so any 3-D universe buster logically possesses colossal 4-D power as well, rendering the distinction moot.


I was under the impression one needed to entirely annihilate a spacetime continuum past, present and future to qualify, but if ripping spacetime is enough we might as well start the scale at 4-D.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I was under the impression one needed to entirely annihilate a spacetime continuum past, present and future to qualify

For Low 2-C. High 3-A exists pretty much because something isn't quite Low 2-C.

 

[Jobbo]

But in pretty much any vs thread characters with 4-D power tend to be treated as completely superior by default. How can they be considered infinitely superior to normal characters when everybody has some level of 4-D power?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Because for most 3-D characters, it is entirely negligible, and also limited to the natural and minor warping effects their mass has on space-time. If something is so unfathomably massive that it actually damages space-time, for example, that is orders of magnitude more 4-D power than pretty much anything else 3-D would possess.

 

[Jobbo]

For even solar system busters the sheer amount of energy would be more than enough to create a sizable black hole, though. There ought to be a note on the tiering system page clarifying that all physical beings have 4 dimensional power unless stated otherwise.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

It's never going to come up in a fight, though. You can't use your mass to attack some higher-dimensional entity unless you are truly so massive that it damages your space-time continuum and grants you a notable degree of beyond 3-D power.

Fiction doesn't operate on the idea of "everything that is high enough tier 4 can create a black hole" because most things within Tier 4 aren't there because they have enough mass or are a living singularity or something like that. I also guarantee it's extremely rare you'll find characters in fiction who accidently (or even purposefully) create black holes by blowing stuff up unless they are specifically able to alter gravity to such a degree or something of that nature. Most of the time, the attack is more akin to "I can blow this much stuff up" as opposed to "I can replicate the effects of a collapsing star".

 

[Jobbo]

By the same token, you regularly see higher dimensional characters jobbing to regular beings in fiction, the vast majority of authors don't have the idea of their characters being infinitely superior to one another.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yes. That is why we analyze each instance, and don't treat higher-dimensional characters as inherently superior if they are consistently shown to not actually possess the proper qualifications that they should.

This is of course assuming you mean the way a character is usually portrayed and not some weird outlier.

 

[Jobbo]

Well, this debate has run its course I think. The other stats ought to scale down too, ie: immeasurable speed, infinite stamina, multiversal range etc.


Another thing I forgot to mention is the fact that they have to evade an incoming star which DMK also wants no part of, so the output of a star is enough to damage them.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yes, everything would scale down. For instance, Multiversal range would become Universal.

I'm pretty sure we don't use stuff like that if everything else blatantly contradicts it. Though "not wanting to be hit with a star" isn't really inconsistent with anyone who isn't DMK...or BHMK. Or characters of their level. It makes sense for guys like regular Sleuth, AD, and PI, is what I'm saying.