Primal Groudon vs Uxie

[Faisal_Shourov]

Distance: 100m

Location: Hoemn

 

[CHILLVIBEZZ]

Uxie.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Uxie.

how? groudon is even stronger than arceus in primal form according to pokedex

 

[CHILLVIBEZZ]

@Faisal Shourov

I dont think we use pokedex here to begin with the stats are ridiculous however i said Uxie because he could subdue way higher beings .

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Uxie is featless on its own and at least Low 2-C with its siblings. I have no idea how to draw a conclusion to this match.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

@Faisal Shourov
I dont think we use pokedex here to begin with the stats are ridiculous however i said Uxie because he could subdue way higher beings .

IIRC pokedex in the games are the primary canon for the pokemon franchise. Primal Groudon should be able to one shot Uxie with an Earthquack. Uxie's overall stat is 600, Primal Groudon's stat is 770. That's a HUGE gap if you ask me

 

[CHILLVIBEZZ]

@Faisal Shourov

the pokedex has unsual stats arceus has the same speed as sceptile really?

 

[CHILLVIBEZZ]

Also i said Uxie wins because it was directly created by arceus as dialga and palkia were so its strenght can likely match them its also proven since it can subdue them

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The pokedex (as in, the descriptions given in the pokedex) and the game's story and lore are the primary canon. Stats are nothing but game mechanics. If we used stats to determine where pokemon should be placed (especially with legendaries), then Slaking is a MFTL+ universe buster.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

@Faisal Shourov
the pokedex has unsual stats arceus has the same speed as sceptile really?

If the game says so, we have to accept it. The games are the original canon of the franchise after all

 

[CHILLVIBEZZ]

@Faisal Shourov

Actually the games are canon depending on the core of the story from what i read..

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

The pokedex (as in, the descriptions given in the pokedex) and the game's story and lore are the primary canon. Stats are nothing but game mechanics. If we used stats to determine where pokemon should be placed (especially with legendaries), then Slaking is a MFTL+ universe buster.

Game mechanics is how pokemon is played, and how the story progresses. If the lore's were literal than player wouldn't be able to catch dialga or palkia in the game. The universe would cease to exist by if they showed their power. But they're catchable in diamong and pearl.

Also, what says that stats are non canon? Stats of pokemon determine how a player would progress, the whole franchise is based on stats, isn't it? If you had multiversal palkia then the player would be dead. You won't be able to complete pokemon legue.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Because the lore is literal? Members of the Creation Trio were destroying the universe in Diamond, Pearl, and Platinum. Primal Groudon and Kyogre were going to destroy the world. You're only able to catch them because that's how the game works. The stats aren't even non-canon, they're just a non-factor entirely due to being game mechanics. Again, if stats are the canon, then literally every pokemon is at least a MFTL universe buster.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Destroying the universe yet can't avoid being captured? Capturing dialga and palkia is part of the game to progress. Why can't they destroy the universe when being challenged by a teenage boy/girl? Are you saying that the same ultra balls that capture mountain level pokemon is enough to contain universe level pokemon as well?

BTW you haven't told me how the lore is more canon than the stats. Because the stats are far more crucial to the game than the lores as you need to catch pokemon with higher stats to finish the game by completing pokemon league. The lore's don't match the games storyline, do they? You can't dismiss stats by saying game its mechanics. The whole pokemon franchise is based on pokemon battles, gyms, pokemon league, beauty contests etc. You need pokemon with stats to complete it. I don't see how lore's are more canon when they're not even that much relevant to the actual game. Why do you think they made the stats for? This is not DBZ power level

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Because that's just how it works.

Waddle Dees can hurt Kirby in-game, because that's a game mechanic. Game mechanics are most important to the gameplay, not the story. This does not mean a random Waddle Dee is planet level or that Kirby is below human level.

You can't dismiss Arceus and the creation trio being universal because you can catch them in game. Again, that's game mechanics.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

I absolutely dont see how the lores supersedes the stats which runs the entire game in the first place. The lores are not relevant to the story of the game because they don't make the player win gym battles and pokemon league. Stats of pokemon do. Dialga cant complete the game with his lore. If he could've, he would've on his own. Is the main character of the game less important than some lores?

Please show me a link that says lores supersede the stats because there is such massive contradiction. I would also like to see how Uxie beats primal groudon

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

That's...not how this works. At all. Let me put it this way.

Arceus created the universe.

Mega Rayquaza has better stats than Arceus.

Does this mean Mega Rayquaza could create a universe?

No, of course not.

Because that's not how it works. In video games, story and lore are what comprise the main canon. Stats are not part of the equation, especially in something like pokemon. Unless you have an argument that justifies everyone being a universe buster.

 

[CHILLVIBEZZ]

Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot

Hey id like to ask you something.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yeah?

 

[CHILLVIBEZZ]

Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot

I wanted to add a pic at the bottom of a profile but when i did the notable loses,victories and inconclusive match bars ended up in the wrong side how can i fix that?

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

That's...not how this works. At all. Let me put it this way.
Arceus created the universe.

Mega Rayquaza has better stats than Arceus.

Does this mean Mega Rayquaza could create a universe?

No, of course not.

Because that's not how it works. In video games, story and lore are what comprise the main canon. Stats are not part of the equation, especially in something like pokemon. Unless you have an argument that justifies everyone being a universe buster.

I could say the same. Primal Groudon is stronger than Arceus because he was intended to be as such in the game. Why do you things stats were assigned to the pokemons in the game? They are not just fancy numbers, they are actual value which represent their strength. A player chooses stronger pokemon to finish the game. Otherwise pokemon gyms and pokemon league wouldn't exist. The whole game is based on completing gym battles, not lores. Gym battles are far more important to the game than the lore, are they not?

Again, any proof that lores (which are just statements) prove that Uxie is stronger than Primal Groudon? I don't see a single source online which says lores supersede the stats for pokemon. And no need to use other games as example please. In pokemon games gyms, pokemon league etc are the main canon as they're required to pass to complete the game. By that definition for pokemon, stats > lores in importance and should supersede. Why Uxie is less than Groudon in the first place is another thing. Pokemon games are made for young children and they don't notice the silly contradictions

As for this fight, more comments are appreciated.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@CHILLVIBEZZ

Try using source mode, or reverting back to a previous edit and using the classic editor.

@Faisal

They actually are just fancy numbers meant to vaguely represent a pokemon's power.

Arceus canonically created the universe.

Primal Groudon has superior stats.

Primal Groudon cannot create the universe.

The stats just function as a game mechanic. That's it.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

^^And for pokemon game mechanic is all that matters. Lores don't complete the game, do they? I still don't see how lores supersede tha stats when they're not relevant in the first place. If they were relevant then Groudon wouldn't be stronger than Arceus. Just shows that pokemon lores are not reliable and certainly not relevant to the actual games

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

...Except they are reliable. The lore and story are what matters when going by a game's canon.

As I said, Arceus did in fact create the universe. This is a fact in the pokemon universe.

This does not mean any pokemon with stats higher than Arceus is universal, especially when Primal Groudon and Kyogre have only displayed Multi-Continental power.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Not for pokemon. In pokemon stats are the canon which actually complete the story. Please provide a source for pokemon which says lores supersede stats. Because the creators think the opposite. Otherwise Arceus stats would be higher than primal groudon

Sinnoh, Unova were did not even exist when first game was released. They have been retconned like mew being ancestor of all pokemons. Lores are not reliable as they're retconned often with release of new version. Stats are not retconned.

If Arceus created the universe than what is mew?

 

[CHILLVIBEZZ]

Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot

It doesnt seem to be working could you check it out if you have the time:https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Asura_Ōtsutsuki

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Except stats ARE retconned. Types are retconned, as well.

"Show me a reference that says any enemy that hurts Sonic is not part of the story. Therefore, all robots in Sonic are city busters." See how that doesn't work?

Mew is the ancestor of all pokemon (genetically), but it was still created by Arceus/the Creation Trio. Mew was never a god, but instead the ancestor from which almost all other pokemon sprung.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Except stats ARE retconned. Types are retconned, as well.
"Show me a reference that says any enemy that hurts Sonic is not part of the story. Therefore, all robots in Sonic are city busters." See how that doesn't work?

Mew is the ancestor of all pokemon (genetically), but it was still created by Arceus/the Creation Trio. Mew was never a god, but instead the ancestor from which almost all other pokemon sprung.

Show me a proof stats being retconned please. Pokemon types are not part of this discussion

If Mew is the ancestor of ALL pokemon it means it created arceus. Not almost all. But ALL. That's what ancestor means. Any proof Arceus created mew? Because it's suggested otherwise.

Arceus is not a god either. He's thought to be a god according to ancient lores, which is likely a myth. His story might get retconned after a new version comes out. I see no reason why it has to be taken literally since the game doesn't agree with it in the first place

And no need to use other games as reference, please stick to pokemon only

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Look at stats in Gen I. Then look at the special split, later on.

That's. Not. How. It. Works. You're attempting to take every little thing literally, which simply isn't so. Mew is the ancestor of all normal pokemon, yes. NOT the gods. Watch Arceus and the Jewel of Life. Look at the lore of the games. Playthrough Platinum, Diamond, and Pearl. Arceus is confirmed to have created the universe. You can't just ignore this because "lol game mechanics".

Arceus is confirmed to be Pokemon's supreme being. This is not up for discussion because "lore might not be true". It's been confirmed.

I'm using other games as a reference because you don't seem to understand the split between game mechanics and a game's actual canon.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Jewel of life is non canon movie where Arceus got owned by a meteorite. Featwise Mega Mewtwo can blitz Arceus to oblivion according to movies. That only proves why Primal Groudon is stronger. Thats not important here.

I have finished platinum twice. Otherwise I wouldn't create this thread. You dont seem to understand that lores are not to be taken literally, especially since everything else suggest its just a myth. The games' actual canon is the storyline, not the myths. The player finishing the league is the main canon. Myths dont affect the game. Myths dont affect anything.

Again, you haven't been able to provide a source which says that lores superseded stats for pokemon. Other games are not relevant here. And Mew is the ancestor of ALL pokemon, including gods. That's backed up by scientists, not myths. You can check black and white entry for Mew. The lores are anything but reliable. The pokedex stats are representation of pokemon and measured by technlogy. Nobody saw Arceus creating the universe. If they did scientists wouldn't say Mew is the ancestor of ALL pokemon. Arceus created the universe with its 1000 arms yet it has 4 limbs only. Contradiction right there

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Jewel of Life is canon. I don't know where you got the idea that it wasn't.

I don't think you understand it, though. The lore isn't just a bunch of myths. It's the actual history of the verse. You really don't seem to understand how game canon works.

Because I don't need to? Scientists didn't even know the gods existed for a long time. Gods who are literally the embodiments of time and space. Nobody saw Mew being the ancestor of all pokemon, either. I really don't think you understand this.

I have left you all you could ever need to understand why this is pointless. For now, I am closing the thread. You can think about the difference between game mechanics and game canon in the mean time.