Possible tier addition to all Ainur

[TheVividen]

Currently, we have the low 2-C profiles for the Valar, the reason being that they were among the most powerful of the Ainur during the creation of the universe. But they weren't the only ones that had a role: the Ainundale clearly states that "the voices of the Ainur" were "like unto countless choirs singing" and that the music was a sound that "arose of endless interchanging melodies." (http://www.tolkienion.com/texts/silclient.html)

We know that the Ainur included the Valar and all of the Maiar, as well as those spirits of power that did not choose to enter Arda. This suggests an additional form, to be added to the Maiar profiles, that reflects their cosmic origins/potential (since they're all going to sing in the Music again after the Dagor Dagorath, implying they cast off their avatar forms). Huesito88 suggested Multi-Galaxy, which is reasonable for the very high-tier Maiar (Sauron, Osse, Melian) who were nearly comparable to weak Valar, and I think that lower cosmic tiers (Galaxy, maybe Multi-Solar-System) would be appropriate for others of that race (Olorin, Gothmog, Carcharoth, Bombadil).

Thoughts?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the reasons for rating the Valar as high as we currently do seem very speculative to begin with, so I do not think that rating Sauron, and similar beings, at 3-B seems like a good idea.

 

[Antvasima]

I will ask if Azathoth knows what to do.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

If you mean for their true forms, then they are obviously in a notable position in the verse's cosmic hierarchy, but I have no idea how one would accurately tier them.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[TheVividen]

We could base it off of how their avatars interacted, since those seem to be mostly consistent (the Valar avatars were more powerful than the avatars of high Maia, but not massively, and the high Maia had a similar boost over mid-level Maia.) It seems unreasonable to say that one of the weaker Vala, like Lorien, was hundreds of billions times more powerful than high-tier Maia like Sauron or Melian, after all.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the question is if we simply rate the Valar too high.

 

[TheVividen]

I remember a thread on this in December where Matthew argued that 2-C was appropriate.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, you can inform him about this thread on his message wall, if you wish.

 

[TheVividen]

Bump.

 

[Hat_mchat]

The valar are 2-C due to representing fundamental concepts of the universe i think.

 

[Antvasima]

Low 2-C, but yes, that is correct.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Would that count for abstract existence?

 

[TheVividen]

On the "How Powerful Are The Silmarils" thread I saw Azathoth approve the idea of Pre-Ea keys for the Maiar. Yesterday I was reading the Silmarillion and found the quote that said the strongest Maiar were nearly comparable to the Valar: "...at times they may clothe themselves in their own thought, made visible in forms of majesty and dread. And the Valar drew unto them many companions, some less, some well nigh as great as themselves." (Ainulindale, Page 11, Second Del Rey Edition, 2001).

So there's the quote that we needed.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Well it's likely there are large power differences between the maiar so it's hard to determine which are close in power to the valar. The most powerful that I'm aware of is likely Eonwe as the banner bearer of manwe. This should warrant stellar level upgrades to some maiar in my opinion. I suppose we need more information on the most powerful maiar.

 

[MasterOfArda]

So I have some ideas on how to balance this out.

User_blog:MasterOfArda/Lotr

 

[TheVividen]

Bump.

 

[MasterOfArda]

What do you think?

How should the Maiar be scaled to the Valar?

 

[Antvasima]

I do not know, but it might be best to close this thread, and continue the discussion here instead:

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/801103

 

[MasterOfArda]

Very well