Plot Manipulation Standards

[Ionliosite]

Context is always important regardless of what power it is imo. Its still superior at its core though

And why would it be superior to by default? As you said, context is important, but at the same time, you throw any context to say "it is objectively superior by its very nature", which doesn't even explain WHY it would be superior, and goes completely against the notion of "it should be judged by context" that you put right before.

 

[Udlmaster]

And why would it be superior to by default? As you said, context is important, but at the same time, you throw any context to say "it is objectively superior by its very nature", which doesn't even explain WHY it would be superior, and goes completely against the notion of "it should be judged by context" that you put right before.

I can provide an example of Plot Manipulation that isn't "superior" to fate Manipulation.

In the series "Black Butler", the Grim Reapers can manipulate the Cinematic record of a person with a pink Bookmark, the Books contain their entire lives written out like a story, and the Grim Reapers there rewrote her story. Instead of being "Purified", Sebastian suddenly appeared, even though that was impossible since he was in another Dimension at the time.

Again, Reality Warping through Manipulating the Plot without it being inherently "transcendent" or "Superior" to Fate or the world it exists within.

 

[Antoniofer]

Yeah, uhm, that description is not plot manipulation; just cuz a power involve altering the story and events that revolve around one individual or reality in a "literary" fashion doesn't mean is plot.

Look, if necessary, we can create the power of Past/History Manipulation, and then remove plot manip in a bunch of profiles.

 

[FinePoint]

Yeah, uhm, that description is not plot manipulation; just cuz a power involve altering the story and events that revolve around one individual or reality in a "literary" fashion doesn't mean is plot.

Look, if necessary, we can create the power of Past/History Manipulation, and then remove plot manip in a bunch of profiles.

Agree with the first part, disagree heavily with the second part.

 

[Udlmaster]

Yeah, uhm, that description is not plot manipulation; just cuz a power involve altering the story and events that revolve around one individual or reality in a "literary" fashion doesn't mean is plot.

Look, if necessary, we can create the power of Past/History Manipulation, and then remove plot manip in a bunch of profiles.

And what divides RW and split Manipulation isn’t clearly defined and people have multiple interpretations of that.

If we used “Plot Manip isn’t transcendent or superior”, that would constitute it.

like if not manipulating the story and events of something isn’t plot manipulation, what is? The only difference between manipulating the story of a person and manipulating the story of a verse is AOE.

 

[FinePoint]

And what divides RW and split Manipulation isn’t clearly defined and people have multiple interpretations of that.

If we used “Plot Manip isn’t transcendent or superior”, that would constitute it.

like if not manipulating the story and events of something isn’t plot manipulation, what is? The only difference between manipulating the story of a person and manipulating the story of a verse is AOE.

Probably what's confusing a lot of people in this thread is that when we talk about the plot for the sake of plot manipulation, we're talking about "The Plot", the one inherent to all verses which dictates the entire narrative, not whatever offshoot reality-warping is called a plot in-verse.

 

[Sera_EX]

Depends if the “story and events” are dictated by the actual plot of is just the commonly used way to describe causality, destiny, or fate in a fictional sense. We shouldn’t take “story” to always mean “plot”. Plot dictates story, not the other way around.

 

[Antvasima]

@Sera_EX @Ionliosite @Ricsi-viragosi @Antoniofer

So what do you each think that we should do with our Plot Manipulation page?

 

[Antoniofer]

Well, for instance I mostly agree with Sera, "plot" is not really a complicated term and doesn't require to be expanded (if you ask me, people just push us to divide it into types in order to standardize "x type of P power is stronger/weaker than y type of plot manip").

And as Sera and I said, story is not plot, and altering causality through a book, picture or movie is neither plot manip, that's only aesthetic.

The definition is good as it is, you Cann do a bunch of thing with plot manip in the same one can do it with RW, the difference is about the principle behind it; one can add few examples and possible users if necessary.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the evaluation.

 

[PrettyVixenGirl]

"Story is the timeline: the sequence of events in your narrative. The point of a plot is to support a story: to make a story come to life. The basic ‘story’ question is ‘what happens next?’ Plot is what happens: the sequence of events inside a story."

At the end of the day you are supposed to be changing what is written on paper. But the characters dont actually obviously. So its a bit with stuff like breaking the fourth wall. Changing the plot is basically changing what is written while a reality warper changing reality is part of the writing. That's where surface and beyond surface is coming from.

I can put a line going through a whole sentence in my story and at the end be like

"Sorry, one of the characters changed something in the script." But not saying thats the only way to do it. But changing the story or plot is technically the strongest hax thing since that is equivalent to what you are doing. A character changing causality, fate, and all that could still be within the story or plot. As in intended, that's where same result but different fundamentals is. Changing the story or plot is just indicating the character can touch the highest barrier within their verse. So I can have character A change reality fate and all that but B changes the story or plot and takes away their ability to do that. They can still do things similarly on a surface but because of difference and specifics on the level these things are happening one will always be far superior to the other.

And this should be a disclaimer. As plot manipulation in the way I just described is technically infinitely superior to other hax. Then character A does something like I bestow myself the ability to manipulate reality again then its like alright resistance to plot manipulation check. Or if it didn't work to begin with. But that isnt saying character B is stronger overall just that particular hax is superior to other hax which is two different things. Unless you do something like my ability makes me counter your plot manipulation then its just the author having too much fun at that point then it becomes comical

Stronger than plot manipulation and stronger than omnipotence are both comical things that shouldn't be taken serious outside of the verse cause it become suggs level cringe

 

[Ionliosite]

Eh, I still think the definition of plot manipulation should be better defined, considering that so far, two verses have been brought up for their plot manip, and Antoniofer has said in both cases that shouldn't be plot manip in the first place, which does show the ability isn't as clearly explained as Sera thinks.

On the actual topic in the OP (since defiting plot manip is actually not what the OP is about), I think DT's judgement is still the best.

My position is that all abilities can be related but don't need to be and that none of them is inherently superior to the other.

 

[PrettyVixenGirl]

Its actually pretty well explained the issue is if something doesn't fit that standard or not. I still think a disclaimer on the page is needed. Like it share similarities with reality warping but its fundamental nature makes it far superior to it. Something like that. A variation of reality massively downplays the power imo without a disclaimer. Or if you want just say "in most cases"

 

[ByAsura]

I do agree mostly with Sera, but I also think that plot manipulation isn’t really a variation of reality warping since plot includes the reality of the medium. Using the power itself is changing reality, to an extent. Fate manipulation should just be a case-by-case basis.

Edit: Actually, it’s more accurate to say that the reality of a medium contains the plot based on its definition. So I fully agree with Sera, on that point at least.

Also, I’m somewhat against types for plot manipulation due to how vaguely defined and variable the power is in fiction, such as Akira Toriyama characters punching through panels. It’d just end up being a bunch of abilities that already exist on this wiki, like fate manipulation, plot armour, 4th wall breaking, etc, and exacerbate the problems of interpretation and power superiority. If anything, the definition of plot manipulation could be made broader.

The best and simplest solutions are DontTalk, Sera and Ricsi’s.

 

[Axxtentacle]

This leads me to question something. If we're treating "plot" as that and not the "story", what would someone get for manipulating the "story"?

Also, if someone is stated to be controlling the "plot", but isn't shown to be manipulating anything past the general "story", what would we do?

 

[Antoniofer]

The most similar power to manipulating story is Causality Manipulation, and alternatively Time Manipulation.

 

[ByAsura]

@Axxtentacle In this case, I think your earlier sentiment is a pretty good explanation. This can include Reality, Fate, Causality, and Time/Spatial Manipulation.

Or, just a theory... we don't apply set-in-stone standards, and we take it on a case-by-case basis, since it's going to be different across many different mediums of fiction?

 

[Sera_EX]

@Sera_EX @Ionliosite @Ricsi-viragosi @Antoniofer

So what do you each think that we should do with our Plot Manipulation page?

I feel we should leave it be. I mean, don’t get me wrong I think it could be a bit better detailed but that’s due to it being a little bare bones is all.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, making the text a bit better detailed would still be an improvement and getting something constructive out of this thread.

 

[Sera_EX]

Agreed

 

[Antvasima]

So does somebody have any suggestions for a draft text? I can try to improve on its structure afterwards.