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Persona.

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Okay, we genuinely need a rule against just posting threads/debunks from other sites and calling it a day. This is like the 3rd one this week, and I'm pretty sure I remember DMC supporters having to deal with the same kind of bullshit in the past.

If you wanna take evidence from offsite posts, that's fine, but you gotta put in at least a little more effort than Ctrl + C/Ctrl + V.
 
We do have a rule against that, it's just not enforced a lot because there's really no point in debating with someone off-site (or if they're banned or left the community many moons ago)
 
kuramamyfav68 said:
Why not? You can't just ignore a piece of evidence like this.
Click to expand...
Yes, I can. Because why would I go out of my way to argue against:

1. An OP that doesn’t represent, or necessarily agree with said evidence.
2. Someone who isn’t on site.

Don’t confuse this with me having no evidence to refute it the claims, I can detect a glaring amount of holes, but I’m not going to fight a battle against someone who isn’t here.
 
kuramamyfav68 said:
Why not? You can't just ignore a piece of evidence like this.
Click to expand...
Actually, we can and we will.

Next time, please try to make an actual thread instead of going "Look at what these offsite people have to say! You gotta prove them wrong or else your verse gets downgraded!"

Seriously, if we were obligated to respond to offsite posts at all, I'd need to dedicate like 12 hours a day to explaining why Touhou isn't ******* wall level. Just gotta let people be idiots in their own space in peace.
 
FujiwaraYesMokou said:
Actually, we can and we will.

Next time, please try to make an actual thread instead of going "Look at what these offsite people have to say! You gotta prove them wrong or else your verse gets downgraded!"

Seriously, if we were obligated to respond to offsite posts at all, I'd need to dedicate like 12 hours a day to explaining why Touhou isn't ******* wall level. Just gotta let people be idiots in their own space in peace.
Click to expand...
(1) Don't call people "idiots". (2) This is vsbattles, the "joke" of the internet when it comes to scaling characters. People shit on it in regards to the tierings of many characters. (3) Full of children and wankers. Do you know how many wank their verses here? You might be one of them too. Stop thinking your site's all fine and all.
 
kuramamyfav68 said:
(1) Don't call people "idiots". (2) This is vsbattles, the "joke" of the internet when it comes to scaling characters. People shit on it in regards to the tierings of many characters. (3) Full of children and wankers. Do you know how many wank their verses here? You might be one of them too. Stop thinking your site's all fine and all.
Click to expand...
Tone down the hostility please.
 
Anyways ig this thread is active again and since I know **** all about Persona, I have no reason to stay here.

also im well aware im considered a wanker, it comes with the territory of being a touhou supporter
 
Guys yall gotta chill with the name calling and the hostility, viewing someone as wrong is fine, but calling people "idiots" is just incredibly rude and toxic.
 
Uhhhh was just saying to not be hostile because you guys clearly had a trackrecord going, and it really isn't hard to just NOT be hostile so its gotta be ingrained somewhere. Sorry if any offence was caused lol ill take my depature now.
 
Maverick_Zero_X said:
Tone down the hostility please.
Click to expand...
Ok, tbh, I'm not feeling good now (so I messed up by being hostile, I profusely apologise for this), but I'm merely speaking the truth. This site isn't the most important one out there, and there are many "idiots" here as well. But in all honesty, all battleboarding sites should be following some sort of universal agreement on character tier and terms. Don't tell me this site isn't wanking/downplaying anything now. Aren't the knowledgeable members supposed to be defending their verses' ratings? Why does it matter where the debunks come from?
 
It's important to always remember that most of the things on this website, at least recent ones, didn't get added in a single day by a single person without anyone looking into it. A lot of series here have a history of how they got where they are and in the past, they most likely reflected a lot more of what other websites and there are still things that you are only able to find here, or in other places, due to unique content that they were able to find or just the right person to explain the right thing that no one has been able to do so before, I say this with experience as I'm one of the only people to share a lot of content about Digimon and that I and a few other fans remain as the only ones to share the information first before being replicated by other parts of the fanbase.

A series like Megami Tensei here is a reflection of the content that the supporters were able to find alongside the unique nature of our Tiering System and overall rules about how to analyze a work of fiction, something that will not be reflected in other places with different rules and a different culture (Something it's easy to notice just as it's easy to notice when a fanbase simply doesn't understand the culture of work because they are analyzing it from a different point of view than its creators). Just putting the analysis of another forum here will not have a direct impact here because it's most likely working on a different fundamental language that needs to be translated into the workings of this place so it can even mean something to the rules applied here. Different places, different cultures, if someone just dislikes the way some things are handled here (As I do a lot of time) they can try to change the rules, try to just live with it (As I'm doing now), or just not be here.

kuramamyfav68 said:
But in all honesty, all battleboarding sites should be following some sort of universal agreement on character tier and terms. Don't tell me this site isn't wanking/downplaying anything now. Aren't the knowledgeable members supposed to be defending their verses' ratings? Why does it matter where the debunks come from?
Click to expand...
No, they shouldn't. There isn't a single way to analyze a bunch of things, and "fiction" is one of them. Logic itself has many branches on what is "considered logic" and in our own "Omnipotence" page it's based on explaining different real-world scholar definitions of omnipotence and different branches of logic that disagree on standards on what "logic" and "possible" even is. If there isn't even a scholar's absolute definition for such things, of course, there wouldn't be one for something as fiction, that is even more "open" to various "ridiculous things" because it doesn't need to be limited to a world that we experience.

You have a lot of works made by people from different cultures, by people with different opinions and systems, of course, there wouldn't be a "universal agreement" on any of those things that faithfully represents all of them unless is something very open-ended to the point of "the system is there's no system". Each place will have its own system and rules, and cultures about how to deal with this kind of stuff. Of course, information can be shared (My Digimon stuff is used in various places from other battle boards to just Digimon forums and youtube channels), but it needs to be translated and adapted for every place it's going to be used.
 
"But in all honesty, all battleboarding sites should be following some sort of universal agreement on character tier and terms."

"Why does it matter where the debunks come from?"

I believe you answered your own question here. All vs debating sites, while using similar terminology, ultimately have different criteria on things like cosmologies and tiers which would not make sense in one site be perfectly understandable in another.

Also, it would more helpful if you could summarize or even just post the arguments here instead of linking it to some other place and just hope we find the debunks you want answered.
 
B_Money said:
"is he not outerversal? (I heard he was outer cause of some weird stand persona from him, ill have to dig through dms to find it what he fully said.)

Edit: but as you can tell, im not well versed in persona."
Click to expand...

"He is not Outerversal, that is pure nonsense.

The only ""Outerversal"" feats in the entirity of SMT are from a novel with dubious canoncity that is entirely different from the plot of the actual game, said game is also a spin off that has an entirely different cosmology to mainline SMT games and has no relationship whatsoever to Persona, only character that feat should scale to is the Axiom however the canonicity of the novel is extremely dubious and the translation is not from a very trustworthy source.

The other is a single statement from DeSu 2 that mentions the Akashic record trascends the concept of coordinates, which btw is another spin off title with an entirely different cosmology that has no relationship with Persona whatsoever and that statements isn't really proof of Outerversal anyway."
"Eldriavch Shemat said:
I know xeno Goku is a solid multiversal given his fight with Dabura. Not so sure about the Persona 5 character though"
Click to expand...

"Haven't played Royale but going based on the OG game he should be planetary with Satanael, potentially universal if you do some weird scaling from crossovers and scaling him to the God tiers on the Persona side of SMT."

Wishy-washy said:
"Only if you apply the logic that the final bosses taking control of the collective conscious and using it to warp reality applies to their physical abilities and thus Joker scales from defeating them. Otherwise in terms of actual feats of physical strength they are sorta lacking, outside of a few battle animations and defeating so very large enemies."
Click to expand...

"Why are we talking about Joker's physicals? They are meaningless when the one that oneshots Yabadabadoo is Satanael (His Persona) while the Phantom's attacks couldn't do shit to it.

Also much lesser threats than Yabadabadoo have been stated to be world ending threats (Final boss of the fighting game for example is said to have flames that can burn the entire planet)..."
 
The current Persona/SMT ratings (and the previous ratings above planetary) each had (and there are 6 CRTs that I’m aware of) about 5-6 pages of debating over the course of a few weeks.

none of the current SMT verse ratings got there without a tremendous amount of evidence.

As far as I can tell, you’re not even providing scans for what you’re claiming, why this thread is still open I do not know.
 
Actually, wait, hold on.

Looking at said arguments, he gives no proof for any of his arguments.

Where’s the evidence Quantum Devil Saga is dubiously canon, and entirely different? How and why is the translator (multiple, as I got it translated twice, and overlooked by two other translators, one who gifted the book and the other a pivotal translator in the fanbase) untrustworthy?

The other part misrepresents the argument anyways, as it’s not about the Records, it’s information.

Not even going to address the last part.
 
Milly_Rocking_Bandit said:
Actually, wait, hold on.

Looking at said arguments, he gives no proof for any of his arguments.

Where’s the evidence Quantum Devil Saga is dubiously canon, and entirely different? How and why is the translator (multiple, as I got it translated twice, and overlooked by two other translators, one who gifted the book and the other a pivotal translator in the fanbase) untrustworthy?

The other part misrepresents the argument anyways, as it’s not about the Records, it’s information.

Not even going to address the last part.
Click to expand...
SmartSelect_20220416-215532_Samsung_Internet.jpg
 
We already had a discussion about QDS a while back and it was stated to be accepted as part of MT canon. Everything he says was already addressed in that thread. Nothing new is added from what I see.

Our cosmology and other blogs also covers this so you can read them.

Honestly I feel like you could have just read the thread I linked and the blogs in our verse page instead of making this thread. Would have been easier.
 
Last edited:
While I'm against the rating, the translation didn't have anything wrong as far as I've seen.
 
kuramamyfav68 said:
Again, not my stuff, that's why I quoted them.
Click to expand...
See that's the problem, why would you post someone else's opinion that's not even your own?

Do you actually agree? Do you not? Why didn't you just read the blogs and earlier threads here?

See, I feel you need to actually have your own points in this debate other than "this is what this guy said".
 
Like I said, I just saw all this being brought up in that SB thread, and decided to post them here. I'm not knowledgeable on smt.
 
Executor_N0 said:
It's important to always remember that most of the things on this website, at least recent ones, didn't get added in a single day by a single person without anyone looking into it. A lot of series here have a history of how they got where they are and in the past, they most likely reflected a lot more of what other websites and there are still things that you are only able to find here, or in other places, due to unique content that they were able to find or just the right person to explain the right thing that no one has been able to do so before, I say this with experience as I'm one of the only people to share a lot of content about Digimon and that I and a few other fans remain as the only ones to share the information first before being replicated by other parts of the fanbase.

A series like Megami Tensei here is a reflection of the content that the supporters were able to find alongside the unique nature of our Tiering System and overall rules about how to analyze a work of fiction, something that will not be reflected in other places with different rules and a different culture (Something it's easy to notice just as it's easy to notice when a fanbase simply doesn't understand the culture of work because they are analyzing it from a different point of view than its creators). Just putting the analysis of another forum here will not have a direct impact here because it's most likely working on a different fundamental language that needs to be translated into the workings of this place so it can even mean something to the rules applied here. Different places, different cultures, if someone just dislikes the way some things are handled here (As I do a lot of time) they can try to change the rules, try to just live with it (As I'm doing now), or just not be here.


No, they shouldn't. There isn't a single way to analyze a bunch of things, and "fiction" is one of them. Logic itself has many branches on what is "considered logic" and in our own "Omnipotence" page it's based on explaining different real-world scholar definitions of omnipotence and different branches of logic that disagree on standards on what "logic" and "possible" even is. If there isn't even a scholar's absolute definition for such things, of course, there wouldn't be one for something as fiction, that is even more "open" to various "ridiculous things" because it doesn't need to be limited to a world that we experience.

You have a lot of works made by people from different cultures, by people with different opinions and systems, of course, there wouldn't be a "universal agreement" on any of those things that faithfully represents all of them unless is something very open-ended to the point of "the system is there's no system". Each place will have its own system and rules, and cultures about how to deal with this kind of stuff. Of course, information can be shared (My Digimon stuff is used in various places from other battle boards to just Digimon forums and youtube channels), but it needs to be translated and adapted for every place it's going to be used.
Click to expand...
I absolutely agree with the sentiment Executor has put up here. VS debating is an increasingly touchy and subjective topic which can have multiple iterations of how each character and their feats are viewed and there can be multiple disagreements on how they are viewed. As they say, don't try to please everyone, or else you'll please no one.
 
Milly_Rocking_Bandit said:
Actually, wait, hold on.

Looking at said arguments, he gives no proof for any of his arguments.

Where’s the evidence Quantum Devil Saga is dubiously canon, and entirely different? How and why is the translator (multiple, as I got it translated twice, and overlooked by two other translators, one who gifted the book and the other a pivotal translator in the fanbase) untrustworthy?

The other part misrepresents the argument anyways, as it’s not about the Records, it’s information.

Not even going to address the last part.
Click to expand...
Honestly thread ends here, idk why y'all continuing, OP says he has no responses.

Closing.
 
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