Paper Mario vs Xeno Goku

[Ricsi-viragosi]

the point that sealing is not on his page, and that he only ever sealed a being made out of energy into its source is null?

 

[TheArsenal1212]

I mean you still have to explain how though. How does Mario work around this, or could Mario defeat Goku before Goku got the chance to seal Mario? Saying you feel isn't enough to cast your vote.

Goddamnit ok hahaha

Well, since speed is Equalised. It's more likely for Mario to land a devastating blow to Goku first. He has much superior AP and speed was the only thing allowing Goku to speed blitzeMaeio and seal him away. Since it's Equalised, Mario should take this

 

[Bluetrekking]

Just want to clear up things:

1. Goku only started with sealing with prep. This is also supported by the fact the Shadow Dragons in Heroes have type 8 reliant on the Dragon Balls and Sealing is the only way he could put them down.

2. Goku didn't seal them into the Dragon Balls but used Ultimate Shenron to boost his power.

My thoughts are that Mario oneshots. Speed could probably be Unequal however.

 

[Akreious]

I don't get why people thinks Goku WOULDN'T open with Sealing in matches like these. Mario's AP would be a huge "THIS GUY WILL **** YOU UP!" to Goku's Power Sensing and would basically be a huge "SEAL ME SEAL ME!" sign.

 

[Noahkaismith]

I don't get why people thinks Goku WOULDN'T open with Sealing in matches like these. Mario's AP would be a huge "THIS GUY WILL **** YOU UP!" to Goku's Power Sensing and would basically be a huge "SEAL ME SEAL ME!" sign.

Mario doesn't have ki though...

 

[Akreious]

What? Why not? Verse Equalization says otherwise, and AP is definitely scaled to the amount of Ki someone has in Dragon Ball. The exceptions would be people without life forces (Like Robots and Stuff)

 

[Noahkaismith]

Anyway, I'd say Paper Mario pretty easily. Sure, Goku has sealing, but he doesn't really use it in character. He only sealed Omega Shenron because of prior knowledge. And while you can argue that Goku would feel Mario's power level and then decide to seal him, I'd argue that makes it LESS likely for him to seal. Goku loves fighting strong opponents, so he'd try to fight Mario hand-to-hand and lose miserably. Plus, Mario has time manip, reality manip, transmutation, sleep manip, probability manip, intangibility, and power null. What's to say he wouldn't lead with any of those?

 

[Akreious]

"Sure, Goku has sealing, but he doesn't really use it in character. He only sealed Omega Shenron because of prior knowledge."

Did you not read ANY of what I argued above?

" I'd argue that makes it LESS likely for him to seal. Goku loves fighting strong opponents, so he'd try to fight Mario hand-to-hand and lose miserably."

Xeno Goku is not Canon Goku. Stop trying to apply personality traits of Canon Goku to the smarter and the less no-nonsense Xeno Goku. Also, why the hell would even Canon Goku go CQC with someone who can 1-shot him? Everytime he's outmatched, he almost never plays around. Cell? Went for the kill several times but was unable to finish him off due to Cell being superior (And cuz' Regen). Freeza? He literally stood no chance until he went Super Saiyan, where he promptly stomped Freeza. Beerus? Stood no chance and had a more respectable Mentor-type battle. Jiren? Bruh Goku stands NO chance. Where in these examples does Goku play around against opponents that are superior or hilariously stomp-levels stronger?


"Plus, Mario has time manip, reality manip, transmutation, sleep manip, probability manip, intangibility, and power null. What's to say he wouldn't lead with any of those?"

Too situational. Time Manip. is the only thing that'd really work, Lullaby leaves Mario open and Sleep Stomp requires him to get close which would spell doom for Goku anyways. Probability Manip. Is pretty much just critical hit chance, so it's not manipulating Goku into doing something CIS or anything. Transmutation requires a hit in, so same as before. Intangibility is a wild-card. I dunno, would you immediately take out a rare item and use it the moment the enemy starts glowing? (Most of Mario's enemies Glow IIRC). Power Null, from what I see of the videos of it being performed, requires a Charge-Up Time. So that's not viable. (Stronger attacks buff one's Ki BTW. This is why Goku's Power level increased when doing a Kamehameha against Raditz. So even more reason to seal)

 

[Unoriginal_Memes]

Paper Mario FRA

 

[Akreious]

Not gonna... read any of what I typed huh...?

 

[Noahkaismith]

What? Why not? Verse Equalization says otherwise, and AP is definitely scaled to the amount of Ki someone has in Dragon Ball. The exceptions would be people without life forces (Like Robots and Stuff)

Dude, I was just kidding.

 

[ProfessorLord]

hahah no you were not.

I vote xeno goku fra.

 

[Noahkaismith]

Xeno Goku still has pretty much the same personality as canon Goku. Even still, Xeno Goku still loves a challenge. He doesn't just seal literally everyone he fights. I never claimed he played around. However, in all of the above examples, guess what he did? Close quarters combat. Who cares if it leaves him open? What's Goku going to do? That's not even what his probability manip does? It makes so enemy's miss more often. No it doesn't? It just turns his enemys into a harmless star. How is it a wild card? Star Beam doesn't require charge time.

 

[Akreious]

So what you're basically saying is...

Just because Goku loves a good challenge, he will not go all-out and try to end a fight in a fight where both people are willing to kill eachother and said opponent has such a vast amount of Ki that Goku would likely never see such a huge amount of Ki in his lifetime ever again? That's what you're saying.

A small side-tangent, but jesus christ people need to STOP DOING THAT. Goku isn't going to ******* hold back or something in a battle where both are willing to kill just because "Muh he loves a challenge". Stop it, that's absolute horseshit on every level. Goku immediately went in for the kill against Cell, wasn't willing to kill Freeza even after he killed Krillin and even attempted to spare his life, and even against Hit! He went all out, even throwing out Kaioken despite there being a rule of No Killing.

In short, Goku never "Held back" just for the sake of a fight. Literally the only times he did that were friendly spars against the other Z Fighters or weaker opponents. Please, do give me examples on how Goku shamelessly held back and never went all out when an opponent is of a stronger level and is always chillax'd despite both opponents willing to kill. I'll wait. Side tangent over, back to the debate.

"He doesn't just seal literally everyone he fights."

Because not everyone is on such a level that they'd 1-shot him or possess enough Ki to be worth well over a billion+ Gokus with ease? How about that?

"I never claimed he played around. However, in all of the above examples, guess what he did? Close quarters combat."

I wonder why? It's not like Canon Goku straight up lacks hax or something, nah it must be that he always goes into CQC right?

"That's not even what his probability manip does? It makes so enemy's miss more often."

It actually does both. At least with the Paper Mario game I have. Although not like either really effects sealing, which is Goku's only chance.

"It just turns his enemys into a harmless star. How is it a wild card? Star Beam doesn't require charge time."

I know it turns enemies into a harmless star. Also, doesn't require a charge time huh? Seems like it took a few seconds to charge up before the effect actually took place to me.

Anyways, sorry if I'm a little condescending right now. It's literally 3 AM, well close to it and I should go to sleep now. Cya in the mornin'

 

[Noahkaismith]

I never said he wouldn't go all out. I just said he wouldn't bust out sealing right off the bat.

That Frieza example goes against your point.

He decided to hold back against Majin Vegeta, Beerus, Majin Buu, Kid Buu, and Hit.

Fair enough. But then again, when has Goku ever even used sealing against an opponent he literally couldn't defeat otherwise?

Zenkais, Afterimages, Power Mimicry, Precog, Mafuba, and Regen are all stuff he has. That's ignoring the fact he could also use attacks like the Kienzan, Solar Flare, etc.

Can't Goku's sealing miss? I've never actually seen Xeno Goku seal before, so please link me a video of him doing so.

My point was that it doesn't require a hit. That's cinematic timing. But even if it's not, who cares? What's Goku going to do?

No problem.

 

[Xantospoc]

I am confused. Why does Mario have an AP advantage when both are in the "countless" realm, only Goku stomping guys who did just as much while Mario beating one with massive trouble?

I apologize for my stupidity

 

[DMB_1]

I am confused. Why does Mario have an AP advantage when both are in the "countless" realm, only Goku stomping guys who did just as much while Mario beating one with massive trouble?
I apologize for my stupidity

I remember that there was a calc that puts Super Dimention into the quintillions of universes range, but I may be wrong.

 

[Tyranno223]

Every time Goku, in his canon mindset, held back it was either due to the situation or you're misinterpreting it. With Majin Vegeta it was because SSJ3 would have ate too much of his time and wasn't needed due to their relatively equal power. With Beerus that was just the movie, in fact in Super he kept breaking his limits. With Majin Buu he was trying to avoid getting the earth to rely on him and wanted Goten and Trunks to succeed him. With Kid Buu the manga stated he was trying to go full power but didn't have the time due to the frantic battle leaving no openings to charge. With Hit, I'm not sure what you're referring to, as in base he was trying to figure out how to counter Hit's time skip, and with Kaioken Blue, he only had a 1/10 chance of it working.

 

[Xantospoc]

Even if that were the case, 'countless' can't literally be counted by definition and that we don't put 'infinite' because of lack of statements


It honestly sounds impractical

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Whats the tally? Also xeno for reasons above? (A goku that gose for seallling? Wwwwhhhaaattrt ovo)

 

[Xantospoc]

Xeno Goku has shown to be pretty no nonsense, but I am iffy about the sealing, given he did that only against Omega Shenron when he had no idea on how it worked

 

[Noahkaismith]

Every time Goku, in his canon mindset, held back it was either due to the situation or you're misinterpreting it.
With Majin Vegeta it was because SSJ3 would have ate too much of his time and wasn't needed due to their relatively equal power. With Beerus that was just the movie, in fact in Super he kept breaking his limits. With Majin Buu he was trying to avoid getting the earth to rely on him and wanted Goten and Trunks to succeed him. With Kid Buu the manga stated he was trying to go full power but didn't have the time due to the frantic battle leaving no openings to charge. With Hit, I'm not sure what you're referring to, as in base he was trying to figure out how to counter Hit's time skip, and with Kaioken Blue, he only had a 1/10 chance of it working.

I guess you're right about the Majin Vegeta and Beerus point. However, that Majin Buu point doesn't really work. While it works in concept, risking the fate of humanity just because he doesn't want the earth to rely on him is kind of stupid. Does the manga actually say that? Can you link me a scan? Even if it does, it's kind of contradicted when he says that he could've beaten Kid Buu if he finished the fight quickly, plus the bit where Kid Buu focuses all of his attention on Vegeta, giving Goku plenty of time to power up. There was no need to hold back and stay in base against Hit, as it's been established that SSJ1 requires little to no energy to maintain. While it isn't quite like the other examples, he did give Perfect Cell a Senzu Bean. You can argue that while that isn't holding back, he still purposefully compromised his chances of victory for the sake of a fair fight. He also decided to not team up with Hit to defeat Jiren in the DBS manga, as he wanted to defeat Jiren with his own power. Finally, he decided to use SSJ2 against Goku Black, despite being told just a while ago by Future Trunks that SSJ3 wasn't strong enought to defeat him.

 

[HST_Master]

SSJ3 was taking up too much stamina to maintain for him while alive when he was fighting Buu he didn't get anymore energy until Dende wished on the Dragon Balls, plus it would take him a whole minute to charge to full power. With Hit he was trying to test his strategy he devised when he saw Hit beat Vegeta and jumped to Blue after he figured it out. The Senzu had something to do with Gohan, not much on his own fight.

 

[Noahkaismith]

SSJ3 was taking up too much stamina to maintain for him while alive when he was fighting Buu he didn't get anymore energy until Dende wished on the Dragon Balls, plus it would take him a whole minute to charge to full power. With Hit he was trying to test his strategy he devised when he saw Hit beat Vegeta and jumped to Blue after he figured it out. The Senzu had something to do with Gohan, not much on his own fight.

Kid Buu was wailing on Vegeta for much longer than a minute. My point is, why stay in base against an opponent that literally curbstomped Blue Vegeta, when Super Saiyan has literally no downside?

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Kid Buu was wailing on Vegeta for much longer than a minute. My point is, why stay in base against an opponent that literally curbstomped Blue Vegeta, when Super Saiyan has literally no downside?

SS not having down sides has been inconsistent for a long time. I'm pretty sure they forgot about it as it's said the reason he's in base was to save energy. Also it was said in the cell saga anyway that it was transforming that took energy and there method of not taking much energy was staying transformed so they wouldn't need to wast energy on transforming. So in that way it's not inconsistent as goku is not transforming

 

[Asuka_the_Demonic_Empress]

xeno fra

 

[Darkmon_cns]

What's the vote count?

 

[HST_Master]

@Noah

Goku explained to Vegeta he needed a full minute to charge

While Vegeta was getting his ass handed to him he asked Goku whether he was ready yet, in which Goku replies it's has been more than a minute but he felt like he was actually getting weaker before he went back to base out of exhaustion. He couldn't do it while he was fighting Buu himself because Buu wouldn't gibe him the chance, it's a point that he was trying throughout the whole fight

 

[Noahkaismith]

@Noah
Goku explained to Vegeta he needed a full minute to charge

While Vegeta was getting his ass handed to him he asked Goku whether he was ready yet, in which Goku replies it's has been more than a minute but he felt like he was actually getting weaker before he went back to base out of exhaustion. He couldn't do it while he was fighting Buu himself because Buu wouldn't gibe him the chance, it's a point that he was trying throughout the whole fight

I'm pretty sure he said he could've finished Buu if he finished the fight quickly, but whatever. I feel like we're derailing. Point is, Xeno Goku only sealed one time against an opponent that he couldn't beat otherwise.

 

[Akreious]

@Noah
Goku explained to Vegeta he needed a full minute to charge

While Vegeta was getting his ass handed to him he asked Goku whether he was ready yet, in which Goku replies it's has been more than a minute but he felt like he was actually getting weaker before he went back to base out of exhaustion. He couldn't do it while he was fighting Buu himself because Buu wouldn't gibe him the chance, it's a point that he was trying throughout the whole fight

I'm pretty sure he said he could've finished Buu if he finished the fight quickly, but whatever. I feel like we're derailing. Point is, Xeno Goku only sealed one time against an opponent that he couldn't beat otherwise.

No, we're not derailing. Goku's mindset is very relavent to this topic. You can't just handbrush everything and say "Muh, he used it once so he won't do it again even when the opponent is well worth over a billion of him over"

SSJ3 Goku could've handled and beaten Majin Buu, and was too exhausted to beat Kid Buu. He risked Humanity to make sure the next generation could defend themselves. Worst case scenario, they bring everyone back with the Namekian Dragon Balls. I literally do not see your point. Now, back to above.

"That Frieza example goes against your point. No it doesn't. What? Did you read like... none of what I texted? He saw what could be the good in someone and held back, once Goku was sure that freeza wouldn't redeem himself even then, he just ******* killed him. Plus, Goku was already on a Time Limit as well and what Freeza said about Goku not surviving the Planet's destruction was true since Goku can't breathe in a vacuum.

He decided to hold back against Majin Vegeta, Beerus, Majin Buu, Kid Buu, and Hit. SSJ3 has a harsh HARSH time limit and shaved away time from his precious 24 Hours. He broke his limiter several times against Beerus but still got stomped repeatedly, nowhere has he held back. PLUS he couldn't even sense Beerus' powers so he can't gauge how much he should hold back. Majin buu was addressed above, Kid Buu he literally couldn't beat hi, and Hit? Hit was stomping Goku's ass until he figured out Hit's gig, going 100% off the bat for that would've been worthless.

Fair enough. But then again, when has Goku ever even used sealing against an opponent he literally couldn't defeat otherwise? Xeno Goku or Canon Goku? Canon Goku didn't even learn the Mafuuba until the Zamasu Arc.

Zenkais, Afterimages, Power Mimicry, Precog, Mafuba, and Regen are all stuff he has. That's ignoring the fact he could also use attacks like the Kienzan, Solar Flare, etc. The first part of this is... I dunno. So I'll address the 2nd half. This is completely ignoring the fact that Goku would KNOW he can't fight this guy so bringing up his other moves is sort of counter intuitive. Goku likes a good fight, sure. But when the opponent has powers bordering on a stomp? Yeah, no. He isn't going to hold back anything. At all. Kienzan and stuff like that are not going to be attempted. This guy is serious threat that needs to be dealt with NOW. This is a thing that the examples above don't have; Goku's opponents were never on a level of lol1-shot.

Can't Goku's sealing miss? I've never actually seen Xeno Goku seal before, so please link me a video of him doing so. I never actually saw the original thing so I can't find a video or anything, so I'm gonna go ahead and assume it's the Mafuuba. In which case, It doesn't seem like it can be dodged as the moment the user shouts "Mafuuba", the enemy is already within the effects. Since speed is equal, Mario won't have the chance to dodge.

My point was that it doesn't require a hit. That's cinematic timing. But even if it's not, who cares? What's Goku going to do? Seal? Like... come on. And... what doesn't require a hit? the Star thing? I was talking about the Charge-Up time and it very clearly is a beam that needs to hit things. That ain't cinematic timing.

 

[Noahkaismith]

If it's anything like the Mafuba, then Goku is screwed, considering you can overpower the Mafuba if you're significantly stronger than the user.

 

[Akreious]

... What? When could you overpower the Mafuuba if you're stronger?

 

[Noahkaismith]

Here.

 

[Akreious]

... Did you even watch that video? They said he missed the Jar entirely. He wasn't overpowered.

 

[Noahkaismith]

... Did you even watch that video? They said he missed the Jar entirely. He wasn't overpowered.

If Master Roshi, the dude who is literally a master at the technique can miss it, then how is Goku going to land it considering he rarely uses it. Combined with the fact that Paper Mario has a badge that makes opponents miss a majorty of the time, and I doubt Goku will be landing the mafuba.

 

[Akreious]

Roshi only couldn't land it because he used it back to back, and we see his arm getting strained from the repeated use. Even a master of Kick-Boxing would get tired after throwing the equivalent of 100 combos. Point is, even Trunks who learned it from watching a video and a complete ROOKIE at it was able to use it and almost seal Zamasu. And this Goku is much more experienced than Trunks in... well... everything. Again, you're ignoring context.

The Mafuuba starts off as an AoE and basically sucks the opponent into the jar. Mario won't be able to dodge the initial effect since, well, you can't. You're surrounded by its energy the moment they shout "MAFUUBA!" and for your 2nd part, that's like saying "I have a badge of bad luck so any form of transport I go on will crash and kill everyone on board!" since it will always miss its destination right?

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Here.

Just face it your out voted and i think we have enough people voting for goku to start the grace period.

 

[Noahkaismith]

Roshi only couldn't land it because he used it back to back, and we see his arm getting strained from the repeated use. Even a master of Kick-Boxing would get tired after throwing the equivalent of 100 combos. Point is, even Trunks who learned it from watching a video and a complete ROOKIE at it was able to use it and almost seal Zamasu. And this Goku is much more experienced than Trunks in... well... everything. Again, you're ignoring context.
The Mafuuba starts off as an AoE and basically sucks the opponent into the jar. Mario won't be able to dodge the initial effect since, well, you can't. You're surrounded by its energy the moment they shout "MAFUUBA!" and for your 2nd part, that's like saying "I have a badge of bad luck so any form of transport I go on will crash and kill everyone on board!" since it will always miss its destination right?

No, that isn't even close to what the badge does. It makes opponents miss attacks much more often.

 

[Noahkaismith]

Here.

Just face it your out voted and i think we have enough people voting for goku to start the grace period.

Majority isn't always right. Besides, I don't think Xeno Goku has enough votes, and a few of them are invalid. Oh, and I was playing Thousand Year Door the other day, and apparently the Crystal Stars can seal.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Here.

Just face it your out voted and i think we have enough people voting for goku to start the grace period.

Majority isn't always right. Besides, I don't think Xeno Goku has enough votes, and a few of them are invalid. Oh, and I was playing Thousand Year Door the other day, and apparently the Crystal Stars can seal.

If it's not on the profile it can't be used. I onec got banned for debating off profile you can't do that you have to make a revision thread with evidence and then this thread would become invalis because the profile had been revised.