Our concrete and reinforced concrete destruction values are outdated

[Vzearr]

Concrete compressive strength = 17 MPa (V-Frag) to 28 - 70 MPA (Pulv), 80 here. Averaging 28 and 80 MPA we get 54 MPA, this is somewhat backed up by other sources too so I believe we should replace our values here for pulverisation.
Reinforced concrete compressive strength = I've always found it kinda odd how reinforced concrete wasn't largely stronger than concrete in terms of shear strength, well here are some sources that state the shear strength of RC is much higher then what we think 63 MPA , 50 MPA here. Getting an average of: 56.5 MPa. Compressive strength values of RC are very difficult to find though so... Idk about that.

Got this idea from flashlights recent thread lol.

 

[Vzearr]

Tagging calc group members (sorry): @DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Therefir @Ugarik @DMUA @Damage3245 @TheRustyOne @DemonGodMitchAubin @Jasonsith @Wokistan @Armorchompy @Migue79 @Psychomaster35 @Dark-Carioca @AbaddonTheDisappointment @Aguywhodoesthings @Agnaa @Dalesean027 @DemiiPowa @SeijiSetto @SunDaGamer

 

[DMUA]

(sorry)

He says this and yet keeps doing it

 

[Vzearr]

He says this and yet keeps doing it

Expect one more coming up soon (Different types of forces).

 

[Dark-Carioca]

I've always found it kinda odd how reinforced concrete wasn't largely stronger than concrete in terms of shear strength, well here are some sources that state the shear strength of RC is much higher then what we think 63 MPA , 50 MPA here. Getting an average of: 56.5 MPa

Compared to 54 MPa that is indeed not largely stronger, huh?

 

[Vzearr]

Compared to 54 MPa that is indeed not largely stronger, huh?

Our current values are 10 MPa.

 

[Epyriel]

Concrete compressive strength = 17 MPa (V-Frag) to 28 - 70 MPA (Pulv), 80 here. Averaging 28 and 80 MPA we get 54 MPA, this is somewhat backed up by other sources too so I believe we should replace our values here for pulverisation.

Did always find it weird that the pulverization values for cement and concrete were lower than wood.

 

[Flashlight237]

Hey hey hey, whoa. First of all, concrete is a highly variable material. I've seen so many papers and studies on the engineering properties of concrete that you can probably go as far as to name any material that you think would be added into concrete and you could probably find a research paper on the mechanical properties of said concrete. The same can be said about steel.
Second, the way the first two links insinuates that regular ol' concrete is somehow stronger than reinforced concrete when that is complete bollocks. The first link overly generalizes concrete and second link is a homework website, which generally isn't something reliable.

Our current value for concrete's fragmentation uses an academic reference sheet for the low end fragmentation value (https://www.academia.edu/4156626/So...ogic_and_Otherwise_Angle_of_internal_friction ), although our current values for V. Frag and pulverization do make use of Engineering Toolbox's listed shear and compressive strength values, which is kinda odd. ET's always been a last resort-y type thing.

Personally, it is in our best interest to just stick with what we already have for concrete's values as, again, concrete is too variable for us to settle with any one value.

As for reinforced concrete, the values in the articles you provided aren't shear strength, they're compressive strength. If you want shear strength, here's a study from Purdue involving 370 reinforced concrete samples using a shear strength model that uses flexural stress: https://engineering.purdue.edu/~fro...rete Shear Strength - Another Perspective.pdf

The values range from 0.9 to 13.6 ksi (6.2 to 93.8 MPa), with the majority of the samples sitting in a cloud ranging from 2 to 6 ksi (13.8 to 41.4 MPa). Compressive strength doesn't exactly fare better; this source goes from 26 to 99 MPa: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9228203/

Keep in mind that reinforced concrete (which uses rebar) is different from UHPC (ultra-high performance concrete, which uses fibers). Generally UHPC must have a compressive strength higher than 15000 psi (103.4 MPa). This source sets UHPC's compressive strength at at least 150 MPA: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/ultra-high-performance-concrete

One particular brand of UHPC goes for 25500 psi (175.8 MPa): https://cor-tuf.com/2022-everything-you-need-to-know-about-concrete-strength/

So yeah, maybe read into the sources a little more.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm pretty sure we have had numerous discussions that ended up with more or less the same general conclusions.

 

[Vzearr]

Hey hey hey, whoa. First of all, concrete is a highly variable material. I've seen so many papers and studies on the engineering properties of concrete that you can probably go as far as to name any material that you think would be added into concrete and you could probably find a research paper on the mechanical properties of said concrete. The same can be said about steel.
Second, the way the first two links insinuates that regular ol' concrete is somehow stronger than reinforced concrete when that is complete bollocks. The first link overly generalizes concrete and second link is a homework website, which generally isn't something reliable.

Our current value for concrete's fragmentation uses an academic reference sheet for the low end fragmentation value (https://www.academia.edu/4156626/So...ogic_and_Otherwise_Angle_of_internal_friction ), although our current values for V. Frag and pulverization do make use of Engineering Toolbox's listed shear and compressive strength values, which is kinda odd. ET's always been a last resort-y type thing.

Personally, it is in our best interest to just stick with what we already have for concrete's values as, again, concrete is too variable for us to settle with any one value.

As for reinforced concrete, the values in the articles you provided aren't shear strength, they're compressive strength. If you want shear strength, here's a study from Purdue involving 370 reinforced concrete samples using a shear strength model that uses flexural stress: https://engineering.purdue.edu/~frosch/ftp/Pavelchak/Concrete Shear Strength - Another Perspective.pdf

The values range from 0.9 to 13.6 ksi (6.2 to 93.8 MPa), with the majority of the samples sitting in a cloud ranging from 2 to 6 ksi (13.8 to 41.4 MPa). Compressive strength doesn't exactly fare better; this source goes from 26 to 99 MPa: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9228203/

Keep in mind that reinforced concrete (which uses rebar) is different from UHPC (ultra-high performance concrete, which uses fibers). Generally UHPC must have a compressive strength higher than 15000 psi (103.4 MPa). This source sets UHPC's compressive strength at at least 150 MPA: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/ultra-high-performance-concrete

One particular brand of UHPC goes for 25500 psi (175.8 MPa): https://cor-tuf.com/2022-everything-you-need-to-know-about-concrete-strength/

So yeah, maybe read into the sources a little more.

Your Purdue study on reinforced concrete shear strength show values ranging from 6.2 mpa to 93.8 mpa, with most falling between 13.8 mpa and 41.4 mpa. The shown compressive strength values range from 26 mpa to 99 mpa. With such a big range, sticking to outdated low end numbers (like 10 MPa for shear strength) doesn’t make sense. Instead, we should use an average of the values shown.

Anyways, concrete makes sense I guess.

 

[Flashlight237]

I'm pretty sure we have had numerous discussions that ended up with more or less the same general conclusions.

While that is true, I do feel that our values for reinforced concrete are more or less bullcrap. Like, how the heck do you get 610 J/cc for typical reinforced concrete when UHPC, the strongest non-specialized concrete, is only a third as strong?

 

[Vzearr]

#ignored.

 

[FinePoint]

I don't know why I was specifically asked to comment here, but:

"Concrete" and "Reinforced Concrete" are both technically extremely vague and contain a lot of variation, so using the average value from a study makes complete sense to me.
If the average from reliable studies is above our current default assumption, then that default assumption should obviously change.

 

[Flashlight237]

"Concrete" and "Reinforced Concrete" are both technically extremely vague and contain a lot of variation, so using the average value from a study makes complete sense to me.
If the average from reliable studies is above our current default assumption, then that default assumption should obviously change.

There is a difference between concrete and reinforced concrete. Reinforced concrete has this stuff called "rebar" in it. You know, those steel rods you put in structures.

Regarding reinforced concrete, the average for pulverization (compressive strength) is listed at at most 99 MPa (99 J/cc) from reliable studies. Our current 610 MPa value lacks justification and falters when the stronger UHPC has studied values three times weaker than what we got. That and after looking through Google searches on the matter, I feel as though Spino misinterpreted something down the line.

Your Purdue study on reinforced concrete shear strength show values ranging from 6.2 mpa to 93.8 mpa, with most falling between 13.8 mpa and 41.4 mpa. The shown compressive strength values range from 26 mpa to 99 mpa. With such a big range, sticking to outdated low end numbers (like 10 MPa for shear strength) doesn’t make sense. Instead, we should use an average of the values shown.

Anyways, concrete makes sense I guess.

I'm not sure if you got the right message from my response about reinforced concrete. I was telling you that you mistook compressive strength values (four of which the first article's abstract pointed out quite clearly) for shear strength values and showing you a study that actually focuses on shear strength values. Personally, I'm convinced that reinforced concrete should have its values changed after just looking for shear and compressive strength values for the material.

 

[FinePoint]

There is a difference between concrete and reinforced concrete. Reinforced concrete has this stuff called "rebar" in it. You know, those steel rods you put in structures.

That felt a little condescending. I know there's a difference between the two.

I meant that in both cases, 'concrete' refers to a mixture of various things which can include different materials or manufacturing. Therefore, the word itself doesn't give you a good idea of how strong any particular instance of it is- and in the case of rebar 'steel' itself is also a mixture which can vary in material and manufacturing. This is in contrast to something like two blocks of pure lead, which should have the exact same properties in the exact same conditions. That is what I meant by either being extremely vague.

Apologies if that wasn't clear.

 

[Flashlight237]

That felt a little condescending. I know there's a difference between the two.

I meant that in both cases, 'concrete' refers to a mixture of various things which can include different materials or manufacturing. Therefore, the word itself doesn't give you a good idea of how strong any particular instance of it is- and in the case of rebar 'steel' itself is also a mixture which can vary in material and manufacturing. This is in contrast to something like two blocks of pure lead, which should have the exact same properties in the exact same conditions. That is what I meant by either being extremely vague.

Apologies if that wasn't clear.

You're cool. I'm just explaining even if I may be a bit brash.

 

[Vzearr]

Personally, I'm convinced that reinforced concrete should have its values changed after just looking for shear and compressive strength values for the material.

Same.