Othinus Vs Celestial

[Hoozuki012]

┬┐Who Win?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Which Celestial? One of the ones we know by name, or a random Celestial? If it's a random Celestial, is it an average Celestial or one of the stronger ones?

 

[GreatestSin]

i saw that they have space-time manipulation, othinus loses, they can simply go back in time to the point where she was born and kill her before she became anything

 

[DontTalk]

As if Othinus can not manipulate time and rewrite history....

No idea about the battle, though.

 

[Hoozuki012]

Which Celestial? One of the ones we know by name, or a random Celestial? If it's a random Celestial, is it an average Celestial or one of the stronger ones?

Random Celestial.

Average Celestial

Stronger Celestial.


Tell me what do you think, in wich level she coul be stay?

 

[Hoozuki012]

i saw that they have space-time manipulation, othinus loses, they can simply go back in time to the point where she was born and kill her before she became anything

Othinus can do the same thing or just destroy the universe millions of times in a loop ┬┐Can any celestial resist that?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I'm not sure, actually.

Othinus should probably be able to take someone like Arishem, though I don't know if she could keep up with Exitar or the Mad Celestial. Tiamut or someone of his caliber should likely be too much for her.

 

[Hoozuki012]

I'm not sure, actually.
Othinus should probably be able to take someone like Arishem, though I don't know if she could keep up with Exitar or the Mad Celestial. Tiamut or someone of his caliber should likely be too much for her.

Just for be sure...

TOAA > Entities > Celestials > Beyonder, Thanos etc > The others.


right?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yes and no. Celestials are weaker than Pre-Retcon Beyonder but stronger than Post-Retcon Beyonder.

 

[Graf_Thorsdottir]

TOAA > pre-retcon Beyonder > pre-retcon Molecule Man >= Living Tribunal > Cosmic Compass >= Galactus >= Celestials > Skyfathers > Thanos > Heralds

That should be it. (not sure about Galactus being on the same caliber as Eternity, Infinity, Death and Oblivion though, and no idea where Master Order and Lord Chaos should be placed)

 

[Hoozuki012]

And where is comisc cube there?

 

[Graf_Thorsdottir]

I haven't read any cosmic cube issue, but it's below Infinity Gauntlet from what I heard

 

[GreatestSin]

Othinus can do the same thing or just destroy the universe millions of times in a loop ┬┐Can any celestial resist that?

if she was able to do that she could have dohne it and win against the MC from the beginning via "killing while he is a infant", there was one sentence in the LN that said that they are able to do it but not a single majin (even the stronger ones) showed this power despite the fact that it could have solved their problems in one move

in short: im not sure if they can actually do it, they dont it even if it had allowed them to win

btw, how strong is the reality manipulation of the celestials? othinus has limits as in "cant manipulate beings between life and death"... do the celestials count as such?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

As far as I am aware, while the Celestials are more interested in experimenting on life than destroying it, they have no such limitations.

 

[DontTalk]

So much wrong... To make it clear, none of the Majins never simply wanted to kill Touma. As such the idea that the move could solve their problem is simply wrong. Othinus killed Touma billions of times without problem why would they even need a complicated move in order to kill him as a child? Not to mention that time travel is inefficient compared o just destroying and rewriting the whole timeline.

And the limit "cant manipulate beings between life and death" isn´t really true either. One has to understand that Majins aren´t Omniscient. That leaves them with the problem that they can not really make a detailed world simply like that. After all you would have to know everything about a person if you wanted to create exactly them and how would you dtesroy or create a planet that you have no knowledge off? The answer is that the magic gods use programs that manage the changes to the world for them. For example if they want to make it so that noone ever suffered they would take care of the details, finding every problem that ever existed and rewriting history so that every problem was somehow instantly solved. The reason why things between life and death were not effected by othinus power is because she uses one program for the living and one for the dead, which means no program is tasked with taking care of things that doesn´t fall into either category. It is a bug nothing else. If othinus doesn´t use her programs to control her power or just gives the direct command to destroy a certain things such a bug wouldn´t occur given that she wouldn´t need two different programs to manage something simple as that.

 

[GreatestSin]

^as far as i know they said that simply because of the way of othinus's power she wasnt able to control beings between life and death, i think i remember that there wa even a part in the LN which stated that "the Will" was immune to her powers direct influence because of her inability to control beings outside of life and death...

btw, they never went back in time in order to do something, they also never changed the timeline, they used "phases" in order to change the way how the world looked, this was the reason why IB was able to bring back the "real world", it removed the phases which othinus had put on the world...

PS: there is a logical mistake in your assumption, if majins can go back and look at history in order to take care of every problem ever happened, wouldnt this make them able to easily find out that there are beings outside of life and death? furthermore, if they had changed the timeline it would have affected the MC since he isnt outside of this which shows that they never used time manipulation ever despite the fact that it could have solved most problem ^_^

NOTE: maybe not the problem in NT9 but how far could have aleister come if one majin went back in time and killed him while he was a kid?

 

[DontTalk]

"Like I said, it seems Othinus has free control over the life and death of humans, but I think she has two distinct pieces of software, one for the living and one for the dead /return"

"Anyway, the network forming me contains information from both the Misakas who are currently still alive and the Misakas that are currently dead /return. In other words, I'm alive while dead and dead while alive /return."

So because The will of the Misaka Network doesn´t fit in the categorys of the software pieces she isn´t affected. But that only means it is this way, because Othinus didn´t actively had the goal of destroying her. What she is made off can easily be destroyed. Her spells might not be able to passively rewrite her together with the rest of the universe, but her entire being is made of AIM-Fields, which can easily be destroyed. As such if Othinus would directly will her out of existence it would easily work. The spells through which she changes humans and through which she changes the world are different by the way. She changes humans through an upgraded version of the Einherjar spell. Reality warping is mostly done through phase swapping.

"they also never changed the timeline, they used "phases" in order to change the way how the world looked, this was the reason why IB was able to bring back the "real world", it removed the phases which othinus had put on the world"

They used phases which change not only space but also time. The perfect world had all problems solved even those that happened long before the point in time in which Othinus rewrote the world. In other words it changed the past. A phase changes the universe on a 4-D scale and removing a phase does not only bring back a 3-D state of the world but a 4-D state of the world.

"maybe not the problem in NT9 but how far could have aleister come if one majin went back in time and killed him while he was a kid?"

What gave you the impression that any of the magic gods seriously tried to kill Aleister? I may remind you that the one clash provoked by aleister ended with the magic gods leaving unscratched while aleister got 1/3 of his body destroyed. Their philosophy was to not mess with the events of the world and that includes whatever aleister did.

"wouldnt this make them able to easily find out that there are beings outside of life and death?"

They aren´t omniscient and not actively looking for beings outside of life in death so I don´t see how that is a problem. It is like saying that a time traveler has to be a omniscient being in the present. That doesn´t make sense.

" if they had changed the timeline it would have affected the MC since he isnt outside of this which shows that they never used time manipulation ever despite the fact that it could have solved most problem"

I don´t see one problem solved through manipulating time.

 

[LazyHunter]

Othinus was stated to be able to manipulate time and even proved she could do so in NT9. When Komoe stabbed Touma in the Alpha world Othinus stopped or slowed down time to a crawl for everyone else besides her and Touma to taunt him. He refused to break down so she restored the normal flow of time and let Komoe kill him.

NT9 Chapter 6:

It seemed like time had stopped.

Or perhaps only this place where Othinus was had changed.

It may have been like a waking dream or when one's life flashed before their eyes.

[...]

He received no response.

The girl known as a Magic God gave an exaggerated snap of her fingers.

In the next moment, time sped back up to normal and Tsukuyomi Komoe swung the knife forcefully down.

The reason why she didn't use this to kill Touma is easy to understand: she didn't need to use this power at all to kill him during their fight, she easily killed him millions or billions of times without it. By the time using it might be a good option Touma had already destroyed Gungnir and thus returned her magic god powers to the 0% success rate caused by the Fairy Spell, so no more time manipulation for her. Also, there's only a single timeline in the Index universe, so going back in time and killing Touma or Aleister as an infant would probably cause an uneeded big mess through the butterfly effect, a mess neither Othinus or True Gremlin were probably interested in causing.

None of the other Magic Gods intended to kill Touma. Anyways, after vol 12 the only one who could use her magic god powers was Nephthys and she could only use them one more time. She was smart and kept that single use for when she really needed to (unfortunately for her World Rejector negated it).

For Othinus not being able to manipulate Will: That's also easy to understand. She was manipulating the people in the Index universe by manipulating their memories and resurrecting dead people with an advanced version of her Einherjar spell (or at least that's what Touma speculated). She was not aware of the Will's existence (magic gods are not omniscient) and Will's memory was spared because she's neither "alive" or "dead".

However, Will's memory was being slowly overwritten. Since the Sisters' memories were being constantly changed (and half of them were resurrected) the memories she had from her original world kept becoming smaller in comparison with the memories she was getting through the Sisters of the new worlds Othinus was creating. Even unknowingly Othinus could affect her.

NT9 Chapter 7:

She was a thought entity created in part from what was learned in the deaths of over half the 20,000 clones.

By saving all of the clones, Othinus had greatly twisted the Will's form.

As things were, her very existence would not be erased, but she would change into "something else" as if the data were being overwritten.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Can we bring this thread back to the original matchup and not "what powers Othinus does or doesn't have", please?

 

[DontTalk]

Agreed. If there is an interest in discussing othinus powers further please in an extra thread.

 

[GreatestSin]

Can we bring this thread back to the original matchup and not "what powers Othinus does or doesn't have", please?

ok, only to finish it ^_^

@DontTalk, this is what i meant, she didnt manipulate her directly, and the abilitys she showed only inclued living and death, assuming that she can would be speculation, we dont have any hints that she was able to do it, if there was a part in the LN which says that than please PM me ^_^
and, @LazyHunter, thanks, i always thought it was her control over reality (over the "new world) which allowed her to stop everything :I but than, why didnt simply go back in time to her old world without all this "reality-changing"

either way, i still think celestials win, both seem to have the same powers but othinus's powers seem more fragile (destroy gungnir and she loses her powers rather quickly)...

PS: what kind of othinus are we talking about? gungnir-othinus or 50/50-othinus?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I assume OP meant full power Othinus, as that's when she's in tier 2.

 

[GreatestSin]

I assume OP meant full power Othinus, as that's when she's in tier 2.

thanks, than i would say it is either equal or she loses ^_^

 

[Rhaeroga]

Othinus, I'd say. I mean, it's not a stomp or anything like that. They'd all probably just settle for co-existing, as a fight would be disastrious, but if it did come to it, I'm giving it to Othinus for actually destroying everything, then re-creating it.

 

[SchroKatze]

Actually Oth is a Tier 1