One Punch Man Downgrade

[King]

(Sarcasm Ahead)

Yet again this is a CRT regarding Atomic Samurai and all other characters that scale to him. Last time, there was a Revision of Homeless Emperor's attack and it was calced to be 2.4 Gigatons of TNT (high 7 A). From this, we got Atomic Samurai's AP to be 68.5 Megatons as apparently it took him 35 slashes to completely negate it. However, that is incorrect as we can see in this next panel itself that the orb has been completely and easily annihilated into thousands of pieces. So, following with our train of logic, we divide the total yield by a thousand and get 2.4 Megatons of TNT for Atomic Samurai. Downgrade to Low 7 B. Atomic Sandbag.
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Okay, let's be real now. We don't scale a knife's attack potency for cutting up a piece of butter. If Atomic Samurai can easily cut up the orb thousands of times without any apparent difficulty, then why scale him so much lower than the orb? That way, no swordsman character can be scaled to other characters as they'll always require less force to deliver the same amount of pressure. I think last time, someone brought up a point regarding energy density of the orb, but all objects have a certain energy density which is required to destroy them. This also throws off our scaling as according to this logic, a 7 B character can cut up a 6 C energy beam if allowed to hit a sufficient number of times. So, yes, Atomic Samurai and Golden S along with characters that scale above them, should be 7 A.

 

[ByAsura]

Okay, let's be real now. We don't scale a knife's attack potency for cutting up a piece of butter.

Your argument hinges on cutting up the orb being comparable to the orb itself, so this is a very bad analogy.

It's not even accurate to counterarguments either, so I'll give you a better analogy. If someone throws a stick of butter at you, and you take 35 blows to overpower its momentum, are you comparable to its momentum or 1/35th?

If Atomic Samurai can easily cut up the orb thousands of times without any apparent difficulty, then why scale him so much lower than the orb?

If it takes thousands of blows in the first place, why scale them?

That way, no swordsman character can be scaled to other characters as they'll always require less force to deliver the same amount of pressure.

Ok, no, this is completely so far removed from the actual reasoning.

Swordsmen scale to the durability of the people they cut, Atomic Samurai scales to the attack potency of an orb that he took 35 slashes to overpower properly. We fully scale people who carve up other people because they're actually harming people with a level of durability.

Surface area isn't even remotely involved in the debate. If anything, this actually goes against your argument because it's easier to cut through the orb with a sword due to pressure.

This also throws off our scaling as according to this logic, a 7 B character can cut up a 6 C energy beam if allowed to hit a sufficient number of times.

This depends entirely on Homeless Emperor's orb having comparable durability to attack potency.

I think last time, someone brought up a point regarding energy density of the orb, but all objects have a certain energy density which is required to destroy them.

This just isn't true. Energy density is the energy stored in a certain amount of volume.

 

[Worthless]

Yah no since according to people here specially the man above HE is still far far superior than atomic samurai even after that

 

[ByAsura]

What man above HE?

 

[Worthless]

The man above Dot

 

[ByAsura]

I feel like this is the lead in to a joke, but who's above Dot? In fact, who's Dot?

 

[Worthless]

The man above Dot

Y y ) i mean YOU specially the man above here (YOU) still thinks HE is still 30x far superior than AS even after that imagine hyping the sun blade making it looks like stronger than HE Orbs and some people still think it's still 34x inferior to HE orbs yeah no.

I wonder if ONE/Murata thinks the same thing

But oh well just I'm just a random guy ranting

 

[King]

To ByAsura: I just used butter as an example to demonstrate. Either way, AS didn't need 35 slashes to stop the orbs momentum. In fact, momentum isn't even a thing here as AS is far faster than the orb to the point that it is almost stationary for him. It is a simple case of AP and durability.
AS only needed to slash it once in order to avoid it himself but he had to slash it into thousand pieces so that his disciples don't get blasted.
You yourself said that Swordsmen scale to the durability of characters they can cut. So, why shouldn't AS scale to the orb. You have no reason to assume that the orbs durability doesn't scale to its AP.

Energy density or the j/metre cube values that we use is basically another way to express pressure.
J/metre cube = N/metre square

 

[ByAsura]

I just used butter as an example to demonstrate. Either way, AS didn't need 35 slashes to stop the orbs momentum. In fact, momentum isn't even a thing here as AS is far faster than the orb to the point that it is almost stationary for him. It is a simple case of AP and durability.

I get what you were trying to portray, but I'm saying your analogy is inaccurate, even to your own logic.

Anyway, I used kinetic energy because kinetic energy is energy, and my point is that it takes him 35 slashes to overpower the energy of the orb.

AS only needed to slash it once in order to avoid it himself but he had to slash it into thousand pieces so that his disciples don't get blasted.

Headcanon.

You yourself said that Swordsmen scale to the durability of characters they can cut. So, why shouldn't AS scale to the orb. You have no reason to assume that the orbs durability doesn't scale to its AP.

Even for normal humans, it's much harder to destroy our entire bodies than cutting through one segment. That's why durability isn't based on the AP to turn someone into paste, just withstand an attack with few to moderate injuries, if not none at all.

Energy density or the j/metre cube values that we use is basically another way to express pressure.

J/metre cube = N/metre square

That's not what energy density is. That's just pressure.

Energy density is based on volume, which is 3-D. You're talking area, which is 2-D.

My arguments on energy density was based on the fact that whatever volume Atomic Samurai affected, it's not going to be equal to the sphere itself, which releases its entire energy upon exploding.

Y y ) i mean YOU specially the man above here (YOU) still thinks HE is still 30x far superior than AS even after that imagine hyping the sun blade making it looks like stronger than HE Orbs and some people still think it's still 34x inferior to HE orbs yeah no.

I wonder if ONE/Murata thinks the same thing

But oh well just I'm just a random guy ranting

You can argue something as inconcrete as portrayal all you want, but it still took him 35 blows to overpower that orb. At the end of the day, what actually happens in the manga takes precedence over what (YOU) believe.

 

[King]

I get what you were trying to portray, but I'm saying your analogy is inaccurate, even to your own logic.

Anyway, I used kinetic energy because kinetic energy is energy, and my point is that it takes him 35 slashes to overpower the energy of the orb.

Headcanon.

Even for normal humans, it's much harder to destroy our entire bodies than cutting through one segment. That's why durability isn't based on the AP to turn someone into paste, just withstand an attack with few to moderate injuries, if not none at all.

That's not what energy density is. That's just pressure.

Energy density is based on volume, which is 3-D. You're talking area, a 2-D measurement.

My arguments on energy density was based on the fact that whatever volume Atomic Samurai affected, it's not going to be equal to the sphere itself, which releases its entire energy upon exploding.

You can argue something as inconcrete as portrayal all you want, but it still took him 35 blows to overpower that orb. At the end of the day, what actually happens in the manga takes precedence over what (YOU) believe.

The kinetic energy of the orb is definitely not equal to the overall power of the orb. Plus, AS didn't even stop the momentum, the orb was literally static from his perspective. So it cannot be used at all.
It isn't head canon, like AS himself asked Iain to hold on a little while longer.

It might be a 2 D measurement but the units of energy density cancel out and you're basically left with pressure but that is going away from the point of this discussion.

I get your point regarding that durability isn't completely equal to the AP but with that logic a much weaker character can harm a much stronger character if he hits a sufficiently small area. But fiction tends to ignore this in almost all cases. Weaker characters are almost never able to negate or take energy attacks far stronger than their own or harm stronger characters even if with sharp weapons or not.

You need to be atleast relative to the attack in order to be able to negate it.
I understand Worthless' point though. It is true enough that the narrative suggests otherwise. Homeless emperor was taken aback when his attack was defeated. Plus, it isn't a subjective thing that the authors were trying to show AS as stronger than HE not 35 times weaker.

 

[ByAsura]

The kinetic energy of the orb is definitely not equal to the overall power of the orb. Plus, AS didn't even stop the momentum, the orb was literally static from his perspective. So it cannot be used at all.

For the second time, it's an analogy. I'm not actually claiming that the KE of the orb scales to it's actual power. It just worked as an analogy because, like the explosions released by orbs, kinetic energy is energy.

It isn't head canon, like AS himself asked Iain to hold on a little while longer.

It's headcanon to assume he could have just cut it in half and avoided it.

It might be a 2 D measurement but the units of energy density cancel out and you're basically left with pressure but that is going away from the point of this discussion.

That makes no sense and can't really be equivocated.

I get your point regarding that durability isn't completely equal to the AP but with that logic a much weaker character can harm a much stronger character if he hits a sufficiently small area. But fiction tends to ignore this in almost all cases. Weaker characters are almost never able to negate or take energy attacks far stronger than their own or harm stronger characters even if with sharp weapons or not.

This is why we don't base durability on surface area. However, surface area is a non-issue (as was my entire point before this) because it's not surface area, it's taking multiple attacks to overpower 1 attack, which is not an issue of surface area and something we do use to downgrade profiles.

You need to be atleast relative to the attack in order to be able to negate it.

Negate it via dozens of slashes, my guy.

It is true enough that the narrative suggests otherwise. Homeless emperor was taken aback when his attack was defeated.

Of course he would be, but that doesn't suggest he's superior, just that he overwhelmed an attack.

Plus, it isn't a subjective thing that the authors were trying to show AS as stronger than HE not 35 times weaker.

It's pretty subjective. Just look at the example above.

 

[King]

For the second time, it's an analogy. I'm not actually claiming that the KE of the orb scales to it's actual power. It just worked as an analogy because, like the explosions released by orbs, kinetic energy is energy.

It's headcanon to assume he could have just cut it in half and avoided it.

That makes no sense and can't really be equivocated.

This is why we don't base durability on surface area. However, surface area is a non-issue (as was my entire point before this) because it's not surface area, it's taking multiple attacks to overpower 1 attack, which is not an issue of surface area and something we do use to downgrade profiles.

Negate it via dozens of slashes, my guy.

Of course he would be, but that doesn't suggest he's superior, just that he overwhelmed an attack.

It's pretty subjective. Just look at the example above.

Ok, then let's just leave the butter out of this.

Simple math. J/m^3 = N*m/m^3 = N/m^2. Why are we even arguing on this? Like this has nothing to do with this discussion. We can go one arguing this on your message wall if you want though.

Why would he not be in the same tier if he can negate 7 A attacks? Or if we follow your train of logic, then a 7 B character should be capable of splitting a 7 A energy beam if they are sufficiently faster than the 7 A character and attack repeatedly within a time frame to negate the beam.

 

[ByAsura]

Ok, then let's just leave the butter out of this.

Simple math. J/m^3 = N*m/m^3 = N/m^2. Why are we even arguing on this? Like this has nothing to do with this discussion. We can go one arguing this on your message wall if you want though.

Which still doesn’t work.

Also, this isn’t dividing based on surface area, which we don’t do, this is just dividing via attacks, which we actually do.

Because I disagree with you, this wiki does divide by number of attacks and you’re conflating energy density with surface area to make it seem like you have a point. It’s wrong and you don’t have a point.

Why would he not be in the same tier if he can negate 7 A attacks? Or if we follow your train of logic, then a 7 B character should be capable of splitting a 7 A energy beam if they are sufficiently faster than the 7 A character and attack repeatedly within a time frame to negate the beam.

He’s not splitting a beam like he did against PsykoJet, he’s needing dozens upon dozens of slashes to overpower 1 attack. It’d be different if he was deflecting or (only somewhat here) slicing the orb, but he’s not even doing that—he’s cutting into it until the orb explodes.

 

[King]

Which still doesn’t work.

Also, this isn’t dividing based on surface area, which we don’t do, this is just dividing via attacks, which we actually do.

Because I disagree with you, this wiki does divide by number of attacks and you’re conflating energy density with surface area to make it seem like you have a point. It’s wrong and you don’t have a point.

He’s not splitting a beam like he did against PsykoJet, he’s needing dozens upon dozens of slashes to overpower 1 attack. It’d be different if he was deflecting or (only somewhat here) slicing the orb, but he’s not even doing that—he’s cutting into it until the orb explodes.

Oh god. I even told you to drop the argument for energy density. And no, the math isn't wrong. I'm not conflating the concepts, it is basically just another way to express it.

We literally see him slicing completely through the orb in one slash. It didn't take him 35 attacks to cut through the orb. The orb doesn't explode really. If you look closely upon the panel, those are actually parts of the orb that AS cut as they are cut up into small cubes.

 

[King]

Which still doesn’t work.

Also, this isn’t dividing based on surface area, which we don’t do, this is just dividing via attacks, which we actually do.

Because I disagree with you, this wiki does divide by number of attacks and you’re conflating energy density with surface area to make it seem like you have a point. It’s wrong and you don’t have a point.

He’s not splitting a beam like he did against PsykoJet, he’s needing dozens upon dozens of slashes to overpower 1 attack. It’d be different if he was deflecting or (only somewhat here) slicing the orb, but he’s not even doing that—he’s cutting into it until the orb explodes.

Here we can see Atomic Samurai stopping Melzagard's attack by slicing him up before his attack could reach him. This is a very similar case to the current feat. But this doesn't mean that we scale Melzagard massively above Atomic Samurai by dividing by the number of slashes it took to cut his arm.

 

[King]

Which still doesn’t work.

Also, this isn’t dividing based on surface area, which we don’t do, this is just dividing via attacks, which we actually do.

Because I disagree with you, this wiki does divide by number of attacks and you’re conflating energy density with surface area to make it seem like you have a point. It’s wrong and you don’t have a point.

He’s not splitting a beam like he did against PsykoJet, he’s needing dozens upon dozens of slashes to overpower 1 attack. It’d be different if he was deflecting or (only somewhat here) slicing the orb, but he’s not even doing that—he’s cutting into it until the orb explodes.

I didn't even conflate Energy Density with Surface Area. I just said that Energy Density can be expressed as pressure as well if you want. I never tried to make a point out of it.

 

[ByAsura]

It’s a perfectly valid argument. Just saying ‘please drop it’ won’t make it disappear. The fact is, AS would only be cutting through a tiny portion based on energy density.

No it isn’t another way to express it. They are straight up two units you can’t just conflate like that. It’s different if you’re saying AS is producing that kind of pressure.

You don’t, though. You see him slice into the orb, and then it explodes as a uniform mass. Even then, cutting through a small section =/= overpowering it.

I’m fairly sure those are particles. He cut it 35 times, so you wouldn’t get pieces that small, and they’re blank white particles that don’t even remotely resemble the orb.

Here we can see Atomic Samurai stopping Melzagard's attack by slicing him up before his attack could reach him. This is a very similar case to the current feat. But this doesn't mean that we scale Melzagard massively above Atomic Samurai by dividing by the number of slashes it took to cut his arm.

Those aren’t comparable cases.

This is an arm he cut off, while the other is an orb he needed 35 slashes to stop all the energy of.

 

[ByAsura]

I didn't even conflate Energy Density with Surface Area. I just said that Energy Density can be expressed as pressure as well if you want. I never tried to make a point out of it.

Yes you did, because that’s what pressure is.

It literally can’t.

If you’re not trying to, then just stop at this point, honestly.

 

[King]

Yes you did, because that’s what pressure is.

It literally can’t.

If you’re not trying to, then just stop at this point, honestly.

This is what I was trying express. You could have just cross confirmed by trying to solve it on paper, but it seems you're so stuck up about this you left me no choice.

 

[ByAsura]

I get what you’re expressing, but what you’re expressing doesn’t make sense unless it’s fluids.

Or are you trying to say AS’ blade is pressure, and the orb is the energy density in this scenario? I can get behind that.

 

[King]

I get what you’re expressing, but what you’re expressing doesn’t make sense.

Or are you trying to say AS’ blade is pressure, and the orb is the energy density in this scenario? I can get behind that.

I am crying. Yes.

 

[ByAsura]

I through that’s what you were saying, but genuinely hoped not because it changes literally nothing about my argument and completely fails to understand what I was really saying about energy density.

The argument is that AS is just cutting through a small amount because energy density is a thing that exists (the orb only has a certain amount of energy), and AS literally can’t be overpowering it all at once.

If anything, you’ve just given credence to this argument because only a certain amount of pressure is overpowering a certain amount of energy here.

 

[King]

I through that’s what you were saying, but genuinely hoped not because it changes literally nothing about my argument and completely fails to understand what I was really saying about energy density.

The argument is that AS is just cutting through a small amount because energy density is a thing that exists (the orb only has a certain amount of energy), and AS literally can’t be overpowering it all at once.

If anything, you’ve just given credence to this argument because only a certain amount of pressure is overpowering a certain amount of energy here.

Yes, but we do see that he made a lot more slashes. Those white powdery masses around AS are part of the orb that were cut. It didn't happen on its own. Whenever AS performs the Atomic Slash, we firstly see a few slashes and then the object quickly turns into thousand pieces to give an effect of speed. The same thing happened here as well. My original point was that as we can see, if he has cut the orb into thousand pieces, would we divide the value by a thousand? No, right? So, I am only against this dividing method. I agree that he downscales but not by a huge amount.

 

[ByAsura]

Yes, but we do see that he made a lot more slashes.

We see 35 in total (including the 1 slash before this). No more, no less.

Those white powdery masses around AS are part of the orb that were cut. It didn't happen on its own.

I jus think assumed it was an effect of AS (since it’s a sun-like explosion) or the actual explosion.

Whenever AS performs the Atomic Slash, we firstly see a few slashes and then the object quickly turns into thousand pieces to give an effect of speed. The same thing happened here as well.

I get that, but this isn’t really the same. It’s 1 slash and 35 others, then the orb explodes. Unlike those slashes, he’s not just dicing up an opponent, it only explodes once the slashes are done.

My original point was that as we can see, if he has cut the orb into thousand pieces, would we divide the value by a thousand? No, right? So, I am only against this dividing method. I agree that he downscales but not by a huge amount.

We’re not, though. It’s just 35.

 

[King]

We see 35 in total (including the 1 slash before this). No more, no less.

I jus think assumed it was an effect of AS (since it’s a sun-like explosion) or the actual explosion.

I get that, but this isn’t really the same. It’s 1 slash and 35 others, then the orb explodes. Unlike those slashes, he’s not just dicing up an opponent, it only explodes once the slashes are done.

We’re not, though. It’s just 35.

Oh well. Then I'll wait for Low 5 B Garou and then we can downscale.

 

[King]

Oh well. Then I'll wait for Low 5 B Garou and then we can downscale.

Somebody close this. I am suffering from an unwanted headache today.

 

[ByAsura]

Same here, ngl.