Omega Flowey Revision

[Skyblade743]

Well,this is my first content revision,so here goes...

The main thing i want to talk about is changing Omega Flowey's tier,as his current tier puts him on par with Asreil,which dosnt make a lot of sense because...

"I still need one more[SOUL]...Before I become GOD."-Omega Flowey,pre battle

"The Absolute God of Hyperdeath"-Asreil upon CHECKing him.

Basically,there's no way any of Omega Flowey's stats are on par with Asreil because Asreil is him plus enough monster SOULS to break the Barrier(Ie.A lot).

Also,another thing i'd like to point out here is that classic Flowey's tier should be "Lower than 7-C" because of this quote from his Omega form:

"You really did a number on that old fool.Without you, I NEVER could have gotten past him."-Omega Flowey,pre battle

The "old fool" he was talking about is obviously Asgore.This shows he isnt capable of fighting 7-Cs unless they are literally near-death(he deals the final blow to Asgore in the neutral route if Frisk spares him).He also has to attack a LOVE 1 Frisk multiple times in order to kill him at the end of the True Pacifist route,and even then his attacks get deflected by the other monsters present,most of which are around Asgore's power.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Omega Flowey's rating is...fluid. Basically, we just know he's stronger than Chara but weaker than Asriel, which is why he has the "Likely 2-A". "At least 2-B", "Likely 2-B, possibly higher", or "At most 2-A" are basically all the same rating, for him. Any of them can be applied. However, Asriel is an infinite 2-A. Flowey is finite assuming he reaches the 2-A range. He is quite literally infinitely weaker than Asriel.

"Lower than 7-C" would apply to Flowey with no LOVE whatsoever, since he had none the majority of the time in all timelines involving Frisk. However, like Frisk, Flowey can gain LOVE and become much stronger, and has directly stated he's killed everyone in the Underground before due to boredom. The "never" almost certainly refers to the current timeline, since Flowey was essentially at LV 1, and thus not nearly strong enough to take on Asgore.

 

[Skyblade743]

Yet he seems to be at LOVE 1 every playthrough,as logically Frisk arrives in the Underground in every timeline and Flowey isn't strong enough to kill Asgore in any of them.Heck,he's barely strong enough to kill Frisk in any of them!

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yes, in every playthrough Frisk is in. Flowey went through countless playthroughs and timelines before Frisk came along.

 

[Skyblade743]

Logically Frisk must appear in all timelines,though.It's not like AU's where alternate things happen.It's the same timeline,just with Flowey doing different things.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

No, only all timelines they create. There are still countless timelines in which Frisk was not in the Underground, which Flowey even talks about near the ending of the genocide route. Determination is a variable, and it can be assumed Frisk didn't have nearly as much on the surface, as their Determination in the Underground stems from both the Player's interaction and their own will to return to the surface. Prior to this, Flowey was stated to be in complete control of when things loaded and reset.

 

[Skyblade743]

Then logically Frisks adventures in the Underground would have been different every time he reset.They were,of course,but only due to Frisk's intervention in the Underground resulting in the different routes.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Not at all, actually. Frisk is always resetting from a point after they entered the Underground. At the absolute farthest back they can reset is once they landed outside the Ruins. Because this is when they first gain control, this is as far back as they go, since this is effectively when their first SAVE is inadvertently created.

 

[Skyblade743]

But Flowey would mess up the timeline each time beforehand.The moment Frisk turned up,he'd be unable to reset and the underground would be however Flowey left it.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Flowey would not get to change the timeline. The SAVE was created when Frisk entered the Underground, meaning every moment prior to those events would be the same in every subsequent timeline created by Frisk. Flowey had completely lost control.

The process would essentially go like this:

Flowey messes with a timeline for his amusement > Flowey resets timeline > Flowey goes through with a different course of actions > Flowey resets timeline > Flowey repeats process untold number of time > One of those times, in the middle of Flowey's actions, Frisk falls into the Underground > Frisk's first SAVE is created > Flowey is now locked into the actions he had taken in the current timeline prior to Frisk's arrival > Frisk resets > Flowey remains locked in due to Frisk only ever resetting as far back as their own arrival

 

[Skyblade743]

Frisk is an outside force Flowey cant control.He'd always fall into the Underground at exactly the same time because Flowey cant affect him in anyway because he's stuck behind the Barrier.Logically it's the same timeline,so Frisk turns up at the same time no matter what.

 

[Talonmask]

It definitely isn't the same timeline every time, Flowey goes on about how they were able to save everyone and kill everyone, something he wouldn't have been able to accomplish in such a short time if Frisk kept showing up to strip him away of his SAVE and LOAD ability.

 

[Skyblade743]

Yet every time Frisk turns up it's the same timeline.

 

[Talonmask]

SAVE and LOAD comes into Frisk's control and out of Flowey's once they fall underground, anything Flowey could have done then is a variable, he even stated he "killed everyone", if that was the case, you wouldn't have encountered the main cast or any other monsters to begin with. It's not the same timeline, the current timeline came into Frisk's control once they went underground, something that they didn't do beforehand.

If it was the same timeline every time, then that goes against the fact that Sans explicitly states that there are countless timelines stopping and starting because of you in the Genocide route.

It isn't the same timeline either if you take into account the Genocide route ending where you give Chara your soul, sure everything seems the same the next time you play, but the ending changes to something a little more twisted than happy.

 

[Skyblade743]

Again,though,the timeline is exactly the same each time it comes to Frisk's hands at exactly the same time.

They're stopping and starting though,they're not having fundemental makeup like Frisk's arrival time change.

That's because Chara permanently edits the universe when she takes your SOUL,something that no one's done before because no one has completely destroyed the the timelines.Yes,they've been reset,but we're talking about a fundemental lack of timelines here.

 

[Talonmask]

It really isn't, because if it was the same timeline every time you would have no deviation in any of your actions. You are ignoring what happened to timelines that occurred beforehand when Flowey had the power of SAVE and LOAD.

And? Them stopping and starting doesn't change the fact they are different timelines.

Chara destroys the timeline, that's why when you boot up the game without giving Chara your soul, you are stuck there with them, nothing else remains.

You are ignoring Sans' statement then by suggesting that there is a lack of timelines.

 

[Skyblade743]

That's not what i mean.Frisk could not have been affected by Flowey in any possible way,yet still the time of arrival was changed depending on the timeline.That dosnt make sense considering it's exactly the same timeline based of the same thing.

Let's say Flowey never reset the universe and let everything be until,say,just before Frisks arrival,then reset the universe and let everything play out again.It would be exactly the same every single time,because it's the same timeline.

There is after Chara gets her hands on Frisk's soul and resets everything because nothing exists anymore.It's just you,her and the void(and probably the Anouying Dog,but that's not the point)