Naruto: Part 1 Children Revisions

[KingTempest]

Im a little confused on the problem, are you saying that unless the charecter says it themself the WOG doesent matter for strength statements?

No

Here's the dilemma

Gaara transformed because he was fighting Sasuke

The databook says this

Gaara, who had found himself at disadvantage during the fight with his strongest opponent, Sasuke, wished his full body possession.

But it doesn't say Gaara transformed because Sasuke was his strongest opponent. He transformed because he was fighting Sasuke + some other factors

Sasuke didn't use ninjutsu prior to Gaara starting his transformation, so he's taking the statement of

Gaara, who had found himself at disadvantage during the fight with his strongest opponent, Sasuke, wished his full body possession.

And twisting it to

Gaara wished his full body possession because he was fighting his strongest opponent

And interpreting it as

Gaara wished his full body possession because he was fighting his strongest opponent, so everything Sasuke did after Gaara started his full body possession doesn't count under his "strongest opponent" statement, so Sasuke with just taijutsu and without 90% of his arsenal is the strongest opponent he's ever faced

 

[Stryker861]

No

Here's the dilemma

Gaara transformed because he was fighting Sasuke

The databook says this

But it doesn't say Gaara transformed because Sasuke was his strongest opponent. He transformed because he was fighting Sasuke + some other factors

Sasuke didn't use ninjutsu prior to Gaara starting his transformation, so he's taking the statement of

And twisting it to

And interpreting it as

i think i see what you mean, so only sasukes ninjustu would scale over gara

 

[KingTempest]

i think i see what you mean, so only sasukes ninjustu would scale over gara

Above Lee* but yee

Sasuke and Lee performed the same on Gaara in AP, with 1st gate performing far better than both and 4th gate performing even better, then even 5th gate performing phenomenally better

Trying to scale Sasuke above any gated version of Lee is crazy

 

[Stryker861]

Above Lee* but yee

Sasuke and Lee performed the same on Gaara in AP, with 1st gate performing far better than both and 4th gate performing even better, then even 5th gate performing phenomenally better

Trying to scale Sasuke above any gated version of Lee is crazy

Yea that does make sense. Tbh i also never agreed that sasuke was above gated lee, at least for speed anyway considering he was compared to non weighted lee

 

[Nierre]

I agree with everything, but Sasuke's Chidori should still scale higher than Gated Lee.

Gated Lee was cracking Gaara's Sand Armor but still could never break through it and actually damage Gaara himself.

Yet Sasuke's Chidori was able to do that easily along with his famed sand shield which is superior to Gaara's Sand Armor.

So Sasuke's Chidori > Gated Lee


Also Gaara's sand shield should scale higher than his regular sand

 

[KingTempest]

I agree with everything, but Sasuke's Chidori should still scale higher than Gated Lee.

Gated Lee was cracking Gaara's Sand Armor but still could never break through it and actually damage Gaara himself.

Yet Sasuke's Chidori was able to do that easily along with his famed sand shield which is superior to Gaara's Sand Armor.

So Sasuke's Chidori > Gated Lee

Fine then

210.23​

1st Gate and above Lee, Sasuke's Chidori, whatever I'm missing

good

Also Gaara's sand shield should scale higher than his regular sand

His sand shield has a calc in the OP.

 

[Nierre]

Oh i thought that was his regular sand?

 

[KingTempest]

Oh i thought that was his regular sand?

His regular sand is his sand shield

 

[Nierre]

but it's his regular sand but hardened. it should scale higher than his regular sand, no?

 

[KingTempest]

but it's his regular sand but hardened. it should scale higher than his regular sand, no?

It's not hardened, the only sand that's hardened is that ball he had against Sasuke

Unless you mean sand from nature, we're referencing the sand in his gourd which he uses for everything

 

[Nierre]

oh then nvm

agree with everything

 

[LordTracer]

It’s late so I’m gonna keep this eval brief and then (probably) come back to it in the morning.

Bear and snake scaling is fine, Gaara scaling to his own calc is fine, atm I’m neutral on the Lee and Naruto scaling to Gaara stuff, and I think Neji should scale to/above Third Gate Lee for the reasons that others have given in this thread.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I decided to retire from the stat side of Naruto for the foreseeable future to the delight of many, I'm sure, but I was asked by multiple people to evaluate to this. I will do so, but I don't really plan to engage in back and forths, I'm not really that interested in this stuff anymore. I'll just share my opinion, and ya'll can do with it what you will.

I'm not UchihaSlayer. I don't make beautifully formatted OPs, I just get my points across.

Awwww, you think my OPs are pretty? uwu

Main Calcs​

Sasuke Bear Calc

vsbattles.fandom.com

Naruto: Nard gets coccslapped by snake

vsbattles.fandom.com

Gaara Blocks His Uncle's Booms

vsbattles.fandom.com

Not much to say here, if the calcs are accepted and good to use, then we Gucci.

Main Scaling​

Spoiler: Snake Scaling

Naruto got smacked by that snake and withstood its blow, and was only decently injured cause of him getting shot through the trees and slamming his back on the final tree.
Naruto scales to that, which means Sasuke scales to that, and every other relevant person who hurt Naruto or Sasuke.

Again, this is cool so long as the calc's good.

Spoiler: Bear Scaling

Now for the lower tier characters, they scale to the Sound Ninja.
The Sound Ninja would've gotten shat on by Lee, who was confident he could take them down on his lonesome. They have no reason to scale to his full power from 3 of them getting sent flying from his whirlwind.

But with that feat in mind, it's weird thinking about it.
Those guys withstood the kick from Lee better then one of the FOD bears withstood a kick from Sasuke. Said bear having a 12 ton yield just by moving.
Why the correlation?
Sasuke's canonically physically far weaker than Rock Lee at that point in time.
So withstanding something better from a superior character would make you superior to the inferior chars.
Basically
A > B
B>>>>>>C
A > D
D > C
D being the sound genin, C being the bear, B being Sasuke, A being Lee

Sakura scales for harming Zaku with her kunai and by biting him.
Those who scale to her scale in that manner.
Shikamaru scales to Kin, as he can move with enough force to give Kin a concussion by making her slam her head into a wall.

I was iffy on this for a second, but upon a second and third reading, I think it should be fine. Gonna need more staff to evaluate this line of thinking, though, just to be safe.

Gaara's scaling is extremely dumb currently.

Classy

Spoiler: Gaara Scaling

Gaara's sand scales to hurting 1st Gate Lee.

Lee wasn't in first Gate when Gaara started to hurt him.
Right after Lee lands the primary lotus, his body becomes much weaker.
He could barely even move.
He shouldn't scale to him because of that.

Gaara has his own 8-A calc now. He can just scale to that.

Him scaling to his own calc is fine, obviously, but you haven't really proven that Lee wasn't in the 1st Gate at that point. Him being in physical pain and being weakened/injured doesn't mean he's no longer in the gates, as we see him getting hurt mid moves while objectively in the gates. So that in and of itself is insufficient proof that he was out of the 1st Gate. Also the fact is that Lee withstood and stopped the sand's assault, so unless you're planning to scale injured base Lee to 8-A, him being in the 1st Gate makes more sense.

It's dumb.

Classy x2

Nobody should scale to Lee's feats against Gaara except the Sand Shield and Chidori.
The scaling is based off of the scaling to his Sand Armor, and how Naruto and Sasuke could both crack his sand armor (on their profiles)
Injured Base Lee himself cracked and broke through his sand armor many times.

First off, Lee was not injured here. Stop making claims you can't substantiate just for dramatic effect.
Also, "many times", no not really. This was the result of two of weightless Lee's attacks, after which Gaara's armor chipped off and broke down. Be serious, base Lee did not break the armor many times. Gaara then remade the Sand Armor with a clearly larger supply of sand, and obviously made it stronger to better withstand Lee's attacks, which it did as I'll show later. Any scaling that's on the profiles is attributed to that remade Sand Armor. The exception being Naruto, who you have a point on.
Naruto definitely should not scale to 1st Gate Lee based on the hospital feat. Technically he wasn't though, he was being downscaled from the SA's durability, but I digress, he shouldn't scale here, and should instead scale to his own durability via scaling off of Gaara's physicals, which can be linked to Temari and we expand the scaling chain from there. I doubt you're interested in why we scaled Naruto this way, since villainizing us is much easier, but it was because Naruto really had no other scalable feats for the most part. Him scaling to his own durability calc makes things much easier, which was not a luxury we had at the time.
Anyway.....

The damage on the sand armor is ridiculously inconsistent, as when First Gate Lee attacked the sand armor, it was already cracked. Even with the fourth gate's kick, a single genuine hit cracked and crumbled his entire body. It got to the point where he wasn't even punching him anymore, he was just flopping off of him with minimal effort to chip off as much of the armor as possible.

I disagree with this.
The Armor was being cracked, yes, but it was never circumvented at any point up until Lee hit it with the Reverse Lotus, even that's dubious, but more on it later.
The main idea is that the reformed SA was never really destroyed by Lee at any point. Lee NEVER injured Gaara, at any point during their battle. The only person to injure Gaara prior to Konoha Crush was Sasuke with his Chidori.
The Armor cracked, yeah, but that's a simple shallow effect. It cracked from base Sasuke's attacks, in the same way that it was cracked by 1st Gate Lee, 4th Gate Lee, and even 5th Gate Lee. Outside of arguably the Reverse Lotus, all of these had pretty much the same effect. They send Gaara flying, crack the armor, but do no real damage to Gaara, and don't even come close to breaking the armor. Sand isn't like metal or something, it can suffer superficial damage without being circumvented. That's all Lee did here, superficial chip damage to the outermost shell. Nothing more, nothing less. There's no way in hell the reformed SA doesn't scale to the 1st Gate, when it can take attacks from the 4th and 5th. It makes negative sense.

Then the justification for Sasuke scaling to the actual sand itself due to punching apart Gaara's sand shield is just... no.
His sand changes density depending on the form, which means it also changes speed and durability. Sasuke punching through the clone with no feats should hold no merit except maybe scaling above the canonically weak Sand Armor, which everybody hurts.

Also disagree with this. What's your proof that this particular sand is somehow less durable than the rest? And it didn't really look any less dense than any of his regular sand shield moves to me. It's the same sand, with its shape somewhat altered, that's about it. But like you said, it should at the very least be relative or superior to the SA, due to being a more concentrated amalgamation of sand and being formed from the superior Sand Shield sand.
It's not exactly inconsistent either as Sasuke didn't perform any worse than Lee (outside of his Gated speed) and was stated to be Gaara's strongest opponent.
And before you say that should only be attributed to the Chidori, it could, but it doesn't necessarily have to. The scan is positioned in such a way as to imply that Gaara chose to enter his possession form due to Sasuke's power, prior to him using the Sharingan or Chidori, which is inline with what we see in the manga.

The Sand Armor shouldn't scale to 1st gate (5x above base) when base was cracking it.

I disagree, it definitely should.

Spoiler: Naruto Scaling to Gaara

Naruto kicked a weakened Partially Transformed Human Side Gaara in his face.
Two things.
#1, this is Gaara with no sand armor, aka Gaara with no durability feats outside of just scaling to his own attack potency
#2, this form is not amped at all, as with Temari's statement, it's implied that the human side of Gaara remained the same.
#3, Naruto looked at him and said "I don't know if I can handle this mf"
#4, Gaara bodied him with a smack.

Naruto should scale to his bare skin, which scales to his AP, which scales to Temari.
Sasuke will scale to his feats of breaking his sand armor, which scales to his AP, which scales to Temari.

Ehhh, the bare face argument is fine, but it's not like Naruto has no other feats in this fight.

• He took a hit from PT Gaara's sand in chapter 131
• Then he took his Sand Shuriken, his Futon Jutsu, and more of his attacks in chapter 132
• This is a bit of a meme, but he did take an attack and deal damage to him in chapter 133
• I hate using that term, but it's pm deadass what happened here; he got a mental amp and proceeded to demolish Gaara and force him to transform into Shukaku in chapter 134.

Now I think it's obvious that Naruto isn't as strong as PT Gaara, but he's not horrendously far off either. Assuming my arguments go through, he should downscale from Gaara and Sasuke, to baseline 8-A. Even if my arguments don't go through, he should still downscale from them regardless, which by proxy would scale to Neji. Unless we argue that forest Naruto is stronger than Finals Naruto, which I'm neutral on.

Spoiler: Neji Scaling

Neji wouldn't upscale now anymore because of his changed value. He doesn't upscale from 92 tons due to Naruto not scaling to 92 tons. He'll scale above the 42 like everyone else.

I know Tracer is the one most invested in Neji's scaling and is planning to make more arguments for him, but as a bare minimum, I still have some thoughts.
It's a given that he'll scale above base Naruto, and to KN0 Naruto (the version he fought obviously, not the super feral one). So, if my earlier arguments are accepted, this'll mean Neji will upscale from baseline 8-A and that'll be the end of that.
Assuming my arguments don't go through, then I think he should still upscale to 8-B+, it's only a 1.3x difference, and there is a scaling chain.
Neji ~ Finals KN0 >> Training KN0 > Base Naruto, which is consistent with Neji ******** on base Naruto and his clones.
Actually, there's also more potential for upscaling if my ideas are rejected for others as well, such as PT Gaara.

Finally, your interpretation of the whole Lee vs Neji debate kinda requires his Kaiten to scale to the 210 tons value. If Neji isn't physically comparable to gated Lee, is slower than base Lee, AND can't even block him with Kaiten, then that fight just doesn't make any sense. Neji being able to one-shot Lee won't matter if he's inferior at everything and gets one-shot by any attack. This is also supported by the statement of his defense being greater than Gaara's. So at a minimum, his Kaiten should be up there. Beyond this, I'll leave the rest to the Neji stans.

Values​

12.2 tons​

Zaku, Dosu, Kin, Sakura, Ino, Shikamaru, whatever I'm missing

42.1 tons​

Naruto, Sasuke, Lee, Neji, Kiba, Temari, Gaara's Physicals, whatever I'm missing

156.7 tons​

Gaara's Sand, whatever I'm missing

210.23​

1st Gate and above Lee, Sasuke's Chidori, whatever I'm missing

Besides the disagreements I voiced earlier, you're still missing something crucial. You need to write out proper justifications for why each character scales to whatever it is they scale to, with scans and justifications and all that. Tracer and I are not averse to helping, but we won't be making and applying your revision for you; I have enough on my plate as is. Not to sound like an ass, and I'm sure you had this in mind anyway, but revisions without proper scans, justifications, and references are simply unacceptable at this point, as we'd be going backwards and undoing all the work that Tracer and I have been doing for the past few years.

So yeah, it's important for you to establish proper justifications for these characters' new scaling, especially the brand new stuff like those who scale off of Naruto's dura and the bear calcs.


And that's about it from me. I think that's all I wanted to say.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

My thoughts are mostly the same as Slayers

 

[Deceived3596]

Uchussy Slussy 69 FRA.

 

[Stryker861]

slayer fra

 

[LordTracer]

I‘m also in agreement with Slayer’s points, and I‘ll summarize my thoughts on Neji’s scaling here.

Lee directly says that Neji is the strongest genin, and that he intends to take him down (Chapter 38), implying that he hasn’t been able to do so before. This is immediately after he used the First Gate against Sasuke,

When Lee is performing the Reverse Lotus against Gaara, Guy says that it’s the the answer to defeating Neji (Chapter 86), as shown with the translation that @GokuSparkle brought, and @Shadowbokunohero confirmed the same thing on Discord. Lee himself also says that he was keeping the Reverse Lotus in reserve for a fight against Neji.

Not to mention, Neji was pretty much unimpressed until Lee pulled out the Third or Fourth Gate (Chapter 85), which is a (minor) supporting point to him scaling above the Gates.

Yes, Neji could one-tap Lee with the Gentle Fist. But if he’s only comparable to base Lee in AP, slower than base Lee and 5x slower than First Gate Lee, then Neji’s not gonna be able to hit Lee with the Gentle Fist in the first place and Lee could just one-shot him. That doesn’t fit with the implication that Lee can’t beat him without the Reverse Lotus.

So yeah, Neji should scale to the 210 tons value, he scales above Lee up until the Third/Fourth Gate at the very least.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I‘m also in agreement with Slayer’s points, and I‘ll summarize my thoughts on Neji’s scaling here.

Lee directly says that Neji is the strongest genin, and that he intends to take him down (Chapter 38), implying that he hasn’t been able to do so before. This is immediately after he used the First Gate against Sasuke,

When Lee is performing the Reverse Lotus against Gaara, Guy says that it’s the the answer to defeating Neji (Chapter 86), as shown with the translation that @GokuSparkle brought, and @Shadowbokunohero confirmed the same thing on Discord. Lee himself also says that he was keeping the Reverse Lotus in reserve for a fight against Neji.

Not to mention, Neji was pretty much unimpressed until Lee pulled out the Third or Fourth Gate (Chapter 85), which is a (minor) supporting point to him scaling above the Gates.

Yes, Neji could one-tap Lee with the Gentle Fist. But if he’s only comparable to base Lee in AP, slower than base Lee and 5x slower than First Gate Lee, then Neji’s not gonna be able to hit Lee with the Gentle Fist in the first place and Lee could just one-shot him. That doesn’t fit with the implication that Lee can’t beat him without the Reverse Lotus.

So yeah, Neji should scale to the 210 tons value, he scales above Lee up until the Third/Fourth Gate at the very least.

Agreed

 

[Avengershows]

I‘m also in agreement with Slayer’s points, and I‘ll summarize my thoughts on Neji’s scaling here.

Lee directly says that Neji is the strongest genin, and that he intends to take him down (Chapter 38), implying that he hasn’t been able to do so before. This is immediately after he used the First Gate against Sasuke,

When Lee is performing the Reverse Lotus against Gaara, Guy says that it’s the the answer to defeating Neji (Chapter 86), as shown with the translation that @GokuSparkle brought, and @Shadowbokunohero confirmed the same thing on Discord. Lee himself also says that he was keeping the Reverse Lotus in reserve for a fight against Neji.

Not to mention, Neji was pretty much unimpressed until Lee pulled out the Third or Fourth Gate (Chapter 85), which is a (minor) supporting point to him scaling above the Gates.

Yes, Neji could one-tap Lee with the Gentle Fist. But if he’s only comparable to base Lee in AP, slower than base Lee and 5x slower than First Gate Lee, then Neji’s not gonna be able to hit Lee with the Gentle Fist in the first place and Lee could just one-shot him. That doesn’t fit with the implication that Lee can’t beat him without the Reverse Lotus.

So yeah, Neji should scale to the 210 tons value, he scales above Lee up until the Third/Fourth Gate at the very least.

Agree w/this

 

[KingTempest]

EssaychihaSlayer

I decided to retire from the stat side of Naruto for the foreseeable future to the delight of many, I'm sure, but I was asked by multiple people to evaluate to this. I will do so, but I don't really plan to engage in back and forths, I'm not really that interested in this stuff anymore. I'll just share my opinion, and ya'll can do with it what you will.

muahahahahahahahahahahahaha i have made you return!

Awwww, you think my OPs are pretty? uwu

ew
I'm gonna spare everybody including myself by spoilering this just so this whole thing doesn't take up the page

Spoiler

Him scaling to his own calc is fine, obviously, but you haven't really proven that Lee wasn't in the 1st Gate at that point. Him being in physical pain and being weakened/injured doesn't mean he's no longer in the gates, as we see him getting hurt mid moves while objectively in the gates. So that in and of itself is insufficient proof that he was out of the 1st Gate. Also the fact is that Lee withstood and stopped the sand's assault, so unless you're planning to scale injured base Lee to 8-A, him being in the 1st Gate makes more sense.

Him being in the 1st gate doesn't make any sense, because he was slower than he was in base after he got injured from the lotus, he was stated by like 3 completely different people that he was out of steam, and every time we see him use any lotus, he gets dramatically tired afterwards and gets out of his gates form.

First off, Lee was not injured here. Stop making claims you can't substantiate just for dramatic effect.

I'm claiming he's injured because he's working off of the damage he got from the forest of death. He still has those same bruises, and has consistently showed those bruises throughout the preliminaries. He was already breathing hard in the beginning of the fight after running around very few times.
Everybody save for the Sand Siblings and maybe a few others who weren't in combat were all already working off of injuries from the forest of death.

It's not claims I can't substantiate. It's claims yall didn't notice. Shit, it's claims I didn't notice until I reskimmed over it.

Also, "many times", no not really. This was the result of two of weightless Lee's attacks, after which Gaara's armor chipped off and broke down. Be serious, base Lee did not break the armor many times. Gaara then remade the Sand Armor with a clearly larger supply of sand, and obviously made it stronger to better withstand Lee's attacks, which it did as I'll show later.

Alright, "many times" is incorrect", I'll admit. But on the subject of Lee, lemme note the genuine truth of Lee's growth.
Lee didn't start off the fight trying his hardest.
He started off slower, not hitting Gaara and still moving slower than the sand, not being able to break through it.
Then he quickly and gradually gains speed, later punching through the sand.
Yes, he punched through the sand, as the kanji used effects like "wham", "pow", "bam" after he already speared through it with his punches and kicks, meaning that those are the sounds of him punching through it.
If you watch the anime (support), you can see him punching through the sand multiple times.
Then he kicked him in his face and drew slight blood, something that Temari noted, him actually being able to hurt Gaara.
Then after Guy told him to explode, he gains speed again, and now he's outspeeding the sand that he had to punch through prior.

Base Lee broke the armor twice because he hit him twice. The first time he hit the armor and actually wounded Lee, the second time he crumbled the entire armor.

Any scaling that's on the profiles is attributed to that remade Sand Armor.

This makes no sense whatsoever.
Gaara casually exists with a thin layer of sand on his body, but when he activates the full on armor of sand, he ends up willingly holding up the armor on his body and adding more sand, which takes a lot from his stamina.
If he casually withheld that from after the fight, he'd be using ridiculous amounts of his stamina just to walk around... forever. That doesn't make any sense, as we don't see him put that much sand back on his body until he does the partial transformation.

The exception being Naruto, who you have a point on.
Naruto definitely should not scale to 1st Gate Lee based on the hospital feat. Technically he wasn't though, he was being downscaled from the SA's durability, but I digress, he shouldn't scale here, and should instead scale to his own durability via scaling off of Gaara's physicals, which can be linked to Temari and we expand the scaling chain from there.

Agreed, which I noted in the OP

Naruto should scale to his bare skin, which scales to his AP, which scales to Temari.

I disagree with this.
The Armor was being cracked, yes, but it was never circumvented at any point up until Lee hit it with the Reverse Lotus, even that's dubious, but more on it later.
The main idea is that the reformed SA was never really destroyed by Lee at any point. Lee NEVER injured Gaara, at any point during their battle. The only person to injure Gaara prior to Konoha Crush was Sasuke with his Chidori.

Temari said he wounded him, and we can see a deep crack that extended to his face and drew blood.

The Armor cracked, yeah, but that's a simple shallow effect. It cracked from base Sasuke's attacks, in the same way that it was cracked by 1st Gate Lee, 4th Gate Lee, and even 5th Gate Lee. Outside of arguably the Reverse Lotus, all of these had pretty much the same effect. They send Gaara flying, crack the armor, but do no real damage to Gaara, and don't even come close to breaking the armor. Sand isn't like metal or something, it can suffer superficial damage without being circumvented. That's all Lee did here, superficial chip damage to the outermost shell. Nothing more, nothing less. There's no way in hell the reformed SA doesn't scale to the 1st Gate, when it can take attacks from the 4th and 5th. It makes negative sense.

The reformed SA can scale/backscale or w/e, but it shouldn't scale to the later characters.
We see Gaara not put up the same level of sand. We see how thick the shell he used against Lee is, and it's much thicker than the small fragments that Sasuke tore off.

Lee destroyed the armor with the Front Lotus. Gaara left it, which is why it was like that, but the Front Lotus destroyed the armor.
Guy even said that his armor wouldn't stand up to his attack. "How would Guy know about its limits" its Guy. Come on. He just watched all the feats of the armor.
Kankuro who knows Gaara was even scared for Gaara after taking the lotus.

The Most Important Thing Here​

Also, I don't know if you noticed, but the front lotus specifically is the pile driver, not the kicks upward.
The kick upwards is just the setup for the Shadow of the Dancing Leaf, which is the setup for the Front Lotus (which destroyed the shell).
Lee did those kicks already against Sasuke and Dosu, but against Sasuke right before he wrapped him, they said that it was just the attempt to break the rule, open Kaimon, and use the Front Lotus, aka he didn't break it yet, aka he didn't use the Lotus.
Lee already kicked him up, but he said the pile-driver is the move that'll exceed his genius, which is why he only calls it the Forward Lotus when he's bringing the enemy down.
But everything else, the kicks, the running, all of that was his base speed and strength.
That's why when Sasuke runs in circles around Gaara, that's when they compare it to Lee's full speed and Lee's taijutsu, even though they said he was slower than his average prior. That's base Lee.

Lee kicking Gaara up several times prior to the Shadow of the Dancing Leaf isn't him with the gates. That's his base.

Also disagree with this. What's your proof that this particular sand is somehow less durable than the rest? And it didn't really look any less dense than any of his regular sand shield moves to me. It's the same sand, with its shape somewhat altered, that's about it. But like you said, it should at the very least be relative or superior to the SA, due to being a more concentrated amalgamation of sand and being formed from the superior Sand Shield sand.

The way the databook phrases it is that it willingly turns into weak sand so that it can catch and grab victims.
That's why whenever Sasuke is hitting small amounts of sand, he pushed through, but he couldn't fully push through his clone.

It's not exactly inconsistent either as Sasuke didn't perform any worse than Lee (outside of his Gated speed) and was stated to be Gaara's strongest opponent.
And before you say that should only be attributed to the Chidori, it could, but it doesn't necessarily have to. The scan is positioned in such a way as to imply that Gaara chose to enter his possession form due to Sasuke's power, prior to him using the Sharingan or Chidori, which is inline with what we see in the manga.

No disrespect intended at all but we (me and Sparkle) kinda just had this convo above.

I disagree, it definitely should.

Ehhh, the bare face argument is fine, but it's not like Naruto has no other feats in this fight.

• He took a hit from PT Gaara's sand in chapter 131
• Then he took his Sand Shuriken, his Futon Jutsu, and more of his attacks in chapter 132
• This is a bit of a meme, but he did take an attack and deal damage to him in chapter 133
• I hate using that term, but it's pm deadass what happened here; he got a mental amp and proceeded to demolish Gaara and force him to transform into Shukaku in chapter 134.

...bro his current profile already debunks all of that.
The first 2 he was getting absolutely bodied, he just has the stamina to stand up after he keeps getting put down.
the 3rd one he got bodied by a single swipe and he hit him in his weak spot with a bomb.
and the 4th one he didn't recover from the damage when he got jumped by a thousand clones.

Now I think it's obvious that Naruto isn't as strong as PT Gaara, but he's not horrendously far off either. Assuming my arguments go through, he should downscale from Gaara and Sasuke, to baseline 8-A. Even if my arguments don't go through, he should still downscale from them regardless, which by proxy would scale to Neji. Unless we argue that forest Naruto is stronger than Finals Naruto, which I'm neutral on.

I know Tracer is the one most invested in Neji's scaling and is planning to make more arguments for him, but as a bare minimum, I still have some thoughts.
It's a given that he'll scale above base Naruto, and to KN0 Naruto (the version he fought obviously, not the super feral one). So, if my earlier arguments are accepted, this'll mean Neji will upscale from baseline 8-A and that'll be the end of that.
Assuming my arguments don't go through, then I think he should still upscale to 8-B+, it's only a 1.3x difference, and there is a scaling chain.
Neji ~ Finals KN0 >> Training KN0 > Base Naruto, which is consistent with Neji ******** on base Naruto and his clones.
Actually, there's also more potential for upscaling if my ideas are rejected for others as well, such as PT Gaara.

Honestly, I'd be fine with upscaling to 8-B+, but I genuinely feel like my arguments explained why Sasuke shouldn't scale up to 1st Gate Lee

Finally, your interpretation of the whole Lee vs Neji debate kinda requires his Kaiten to scale to the 210 tons value. If Neji isn't physically comparable to gated Lee, is slower than base Lee, AND can't even block him with Kaiten, then that fight just doesn't make any sense. Neji being able to one-shot Lee won't matter if he's inferior at everything and gets one-shot by any attack. This is also supported by the statement of his defense being greater than Gaara's. So at a minimum, his Kaiten should be up there. Beyond this, I'll leave the rest to the Neji stans.

Already agreed on rotation scaling.

Idk if Neji's necessarily relative to 1st Gate Lee with just taijutsu AP, but at the very least he should scale with Rotation.

I'm not against that

Also I'll bring up Neji's scaling when I respond to Tracer's point.

Besides the disagreements I voiced earlier, you're still missing something crucial. You need to write out proper justifications for why each character scales to whatever it is they scale to, with scans and justifications and all that. Tracer and I are not averse to helping, but we won't be making and applying your revision for you; I have enough on my plate as is. Not to sound like an ass, and I'm sure you had this in mind anyway, but revisions without proper scans, justifications, and references are simply unacceptable at this point, as we'd be going backwards and undoing all the work that Tracer and I have been doing for the past few years.

So yeah, it's important for you to establish proper justifications for these characters' new scaling, especially the brand new stuff like those who scale off of Naruto's dura and the bear calcs.

This here isn't much of a problem to me. I'll get to that

And that's about it from me. I think that's all I wanted to say.

Thank you.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

"That'd be like if Goku called Beerus his strongest opponent ever"
No, because Gaara never called him his strongest opponent.
The databook did. Gaara made no opinion.

What I'm arguing is that the databook is talking about Gaara's opinion for why he started transforming.

He didn't temporarily stop a pile drive, and moving at a speed 5x what you're used to doesn't make sense.

?

Naruto threads are annoying. Make a thread involving dozens of chars and instead we get stuck on scaling about 1 person.

Well that is what happens when a majority of the characters are straightforward and there are controversial characters.

Him scaling to his own calc is fine, obviously, but you haven't really proven that Lee wasn't in the 1st Gate at that point. Him being in physical pain and being weakened/injured doesn't mean he's no longer in the gates, as we see him getting hurt mid moves while objectively in the gates. So that in and of itself is insufficient proof that he was out of the 1st Gate. Also the fact is that Lee withstood and stopped the sand's assault, so unless you're planning to scale injured base Lee to 8-A, him being in the 1st Gate makes more sense.

Tbf Kankuro does say Gaara's just toying with him.

It's not exactly inconsistent either as Sasuke didn't perform any worse than Lee (outside of his Gated speed) and was stated to be Gaara's strongest opponent.
And before you say that should only be attributed to the Chidori, it could, but it doesn't necessarily have to. The scan is positioned in such a way as to imply that Gaara chose to enter his possession form due to Sasuke's power, prior to him using the Sharingan or Chidori, which is inline with what we see in the manga.

You know it's right when me and Slayer agree on something

• This is a bit of a meme, but he did take an attack and deal damage to him in chapter 133
• I hate using that term, but it's pm deadass what happened here; he got a mental amp and proceeded to demolish Gaara and force him to transform into Shukaku in chapter 134.

I don't necessarily disagree with Naruto downscaling to baseline 8-A (though don't find the argument that compelling), but using his clearly resolve amped feats to support that is pretty iffy.

 

[KingTempest]

Lee directly says that Neji is the strongest genin, and that he intends to take him down (Chapter 38), implying that he hasn’t been able to do so before. This is immediately after he used the First Gate against Sasuke,

My point above was showing that he didn't even get to use the first gate yet.
The fights that we see them do were all when Lee was in base too as a rookie genin, so that doesn't make sense.

When Lee is performing the Reverse Lotus against Gaara, Guy says that it’s the the answer to defeating Neji (Chapter 86), as shown with the translation that @GokuSparkle brought, and @Shadowbokunohero confirmed the same thing on Discord. Lee himself also says that he was keeping the Reverse Lotus in reserve for a fight against Neji.

Guy literally never mentioned Neji. He said it was the answer to defeating GAARA.
And he said he was keeping it in reserve for Gaara because of the stuff I said below

Not to mention, Neji was pretty much unimpressed until Lee pulled out the Third or Fourth Gate (Chapter 85), which is a (minor) supporting point to him scaling above the Gates.

It isn't the manner of him being unimpressed. It's the fact that Neji has already seen these things from Lee.
He trains with him, he knows his unweighted speed.

He was there when Lee learned the Lotus, same technique that Neji couldn't learn, technique that Neji actually showed fear to.

All these sayings about Neji being unimpressed is that Neji has already seen these showings. He isn't "nah I'd whoop him", he's just like "I've already seen these". The only time that Neji is actually visibly impressed about Lee prior to the 3rd gate is when he used the Lotus. He said yikes to it for christs sake.

Do you know why Neji is called the strongest genin there?
It's because he is a master of the strongest taijutsu school from the strongest clan.
Not because he hits harder.
Not because he can withstand hits.
Because his specific fighting style is noted to be superior to Lee's.

And now I have shit to say about Neji himself.

Neji himself was eyeing down a low chakra Sasuke and Tenten questioned if Neji was able to beat that Sasuke.
Neji didn't even know if he could beat Lee for christ's sake.
Neji and Lee fought when Lee was a loser genin in his early days, a year before his skills grew exponentially after being trained by Guy
Neji didn't know what the Reverse Lotus was.

Lee has NEVER used the Front Lotus on Neji because of Guy's rule. The only time Neji has ever seen it was when Lee was learning it.
And Lee has a huge inferiority problem. A big one. After effortlessly blocking Sasuke's kick, he was questioning if he could beat Sasuke, the dude who he ended up washing seconds later. He needed to prove his strength to the guy he effortlessly blocked.
Lee was still worried about his "I need to beat Neji" mentality that since he hasn't fought Neji in forever.

Neji doesn't know about the reverse lotus, the technique that Lee learned when he got the third gate. He was surprised from the third gate. And Lee only uses the second gate to heal his wounds.

That's why he's in the chunin exams, because he wants to practice his new shit on neji.

All this "Lee has never been able to defeat Neji" shit is annoying. Trying to scale Neji to the peak's of Lee's capabilities for these vague unsupported statements.
Shit unfortunately we don't use the stats anymore, where Lee
1. Hits harder than Neji in base
2. Is faster than Neji in base

Neji has nothing going for him to scale higher than Lee with gates in base or his damn first gate when he was scared of his front lotus.

Yes, Neji could one-tap Lee with the Gentle Fist. But if he’s only comparable to base Lee in AP, slower than base Lee and 5x slower than First Gate Lee, then Neji’s not gonna be able to hit Lee with the Gentle Fist in the first place and Lee could just one-shot him. That doesn’t fit with the implication that Lee can’t beat him without the Reverse Lotus.

Lee never said he couldn't beat him without the Reverse Lotus. He said it's his hidden move that he was saving for Neji, because Neji has never seen it yet, unlike the Front Lotus that he trained alongside him to learn how to do.

Neji can use his damn rotation which reflects attacks back, instead of needing to tank attacks. Neji could hit him when he's close. Neji could wait for him to strike.

US said above that Lee could deflect Gaara's attack. Lee is stronger than Gaara, faster than Gaara, 5x stronger and faster than Gaara's sand with gates, yet who won their fight?

So yeah, Neji should scale to the 210 tons value, he scales above Lee up until the Third/Fourth Gate at the very least.

I strongly disagree

 

[KingTempest]

What I'm arguing is that the databook is talking about Gaara's opinion for why he started transforming.

It's not.
It said Gaara struggled with him so he transformed.
Not that Gaara struggled with him cause he's the strongest.

If we're using him transforming against an enemy as a strength measurement now, then I guess Dosu is stronger than Lee since Gaara transformed against him and clawed him down.

?

You said Gaara escaped cause Lee closed his eyes. Lee had him wrapped up and is 5x faster and was in mid movement.

Well that is what happens when a majority of the characters are straightforward and there are controversial characters.

smh

 

[LordTracer]

I’m gonna be completely honest, arguing with you specifically about Naruto is annoying, so I’m not doing the back and forth thing. I’m gonna make this reply, and let people decide whose arguments they agree with.

My point above was showing that he didn't even get to use the first gate yet.

Unless I missed something, at no point in this thread did you prove that Lee didn't use the First Gate against Sasuke.

It isn't the manner of him being unimpressed. It's the fact that Neji has already seen these things from Lee.
He trains with him, he knows his unweighted speed.

He was there when Lee learned the Lotus, same technique that Neji couldn't learn, technique that Neji actually showed fear to.

All these sayings about Neji being unimpressed is that Neji has already seen these showings. He isn't "nah I'd whoop him", he's just like "I've already seen these". The only time that Neji is actually visibly impressed about Lee prior to the 3rd gate is when he used the Lotus. He said yikes to it for christs sake.

Crazy how you made a three paragraph response to something that wasn’t even my main point.

Y’know, let’s go with your interpretation here. We’ll say that Neji wasn’t impressed because he’s seen all of this before. That doesn’t disprove the idea that he’s above Lee. You’re harping on Neji saying “yikes“ and claiming that means he’s in fear of the Lotus, maybe he’s saying that because Lee just mastered it and he hasn’t seen Lee that strong before that point? That doesn’t necessarily imply that Lee‘s stronger than him and even if it did, I can just use your argument that it was in the past and they weren't as strong as they were in the Chūnin Exams

Neji himself was eyeing down a low chakra Sasuke and Tenten questioned if Neji was able to beat that Sasuke.

Neji literally just looked at him, and somehow supports the notion that he’s comparable to a weakened Sasuke. LMAO

Also, as I said earlier, you’re being inconsistent with your logic. You handwave away all the other statements comparing Neji to Lee as ”oh it’s taijutsu skill, oh it’s the Gentle Fist, etc” but then you turn around and try to use this statement from Tenten to limit his AP? You’re cherry-picking when these statements refer to AP and when they don’t.

Neji didn't even know if he could beat Lee for christ's sake.

This is after he’s seen Lee use the Fifth Gate and Reverse Lotus, so… not really helping your point here.

Neji and Lee fought when Lee was a loser genin in his early days, a year before his skills grew exponentially after being trained by Guy
Neji didn't know what the Reverse Lotus was.

Obviously he didn’t know what the Reverse Lotus was lmao, Lee was specifically keeping it in reserve for him. This doesn’t support your point at all.

After effortlessly blocking Sasuke's kick, he was questioning if he could beat Sasuke

No… he wasn’t. At no point there does Lee question anything, he’s excited to fight Sasuke and says that he can hardly wait to go toe-to-toe with him.

Neji doesn't know about the reverse lotus, the technique that Lee learned when he got the third gate. He was surprised from the third gate. And Lee only uses the second gate to heal his wounds.

And this proves literally nothing for this discussion. Lee knows the Gates and Neji doesn’t, wow… means literally nothing in regards to their AP.

Neji has nothing going for him to scale higher than Lee with gates in base or his damn first gate when he was scared of his front lotus.

Except for the point that you completely ignored, when Guy himself said that the key to Lee beating Neji was the Reverse Lotus. Now why would Lee need the Reverse Lotus to beat Neji if he was already 5x stronger and faster than him with just the First Gate?

Lee never said he couldn't beat him without the Reverse Lotus. He said it's his hidden move that he was saving for Neji, because Neji has never seen it yet, unlike the Front Lotus that he trained alongside him to learn how to do.

I didn’t say that Lee said he couldn’t beat him without it, don’t put words in my mouth, please. I said that it’s clearly implied by Lee keeping it in reserve, as well as Guy saying that it was the key to beating Neji, which again, you completely overlooked.

Neji can use his damn rotation which reflects attacks back, instead of needing to tank attacks. Neji could hit him when he's close. Neji could wait for him to strike.

When Lee’s 5x faster than him in the First Gate alone and even faster with the Third, Fourth and Fifth Gates? Mm, I don’t think so. Neji wouldn’t be able to land a single hit on a Gated Lee or use his Kaiten in time unless his combat speed was relative to his, your interpretation here literally does not work otherwise.

Like I said before, I’m not doing a back-and-forth here. I’ve laid out my points, I believe I’ve given a sufficient response to KT’s, so I’ll just let everyone decide who they agree with.

 

[KingTempest]

B4 you read please look at the far bottom about how I was wrong about the mistranslation. Translated it for myself and I found it.

Unless I missed something, at no point in this thread did you prove that Lee didn't use the First Gate against Sasuke.

The first gate is finally used right before Lee starts wrapping you in bandages and starts to pile drive you.
He didn't do that yet.

The Most Important Thing Here​

Also, I don't know if you noticed, but the front lotus specifically is the pile driver, not the kicks upward.
The kick upwards is just the setup for the Shadow of the Dancing Leaf, which is the setup for the Front Lotus (which destroyed the shell).
Lee did those kicks already against Sasuke and Dosu, but against Sasuke right before he wrapped him, they said that it was just the attempt to break the rule, open Kaimon, and use the Front Lotus, aka he didn't break it yet, aka he didn't use the Lotus.
Lee already kicked him up, but he said the pile-driver is the move that'll exceed his genius, which is why he only calls it the Forward Lotus when he's bringing the enemy down.
But everything else, the kicks, the running, all of that was his base speed and strength.
That's why when Sasuke runs in circles around Gaara, that's when they compare it to Lee's full speed and Lee's taijutsu, even though they said he was slower than his average prior. That's base Lee.

Lee kicking Gaara up several times prior to the Shadow of the Dancing Leaf isn't him with the gates. That's his base.

Crazy how you made a three paragraph response to something that wasn’t even my main point.

You blatantly said

Not to mention, Neji was pretty much unimpressed until Lee pulled out the Third or Fourth Gate (Chapter 85), which is a (minor) supporting point to him scaling above the Gates.

And I sent 3 paragraphs explaining how him not being impressed doesn't point to power at all... which you... acknowledge directly below.

Y’know, let’s go with your interpretation here. We’ll say that Neji wasn’t impressed because he’s seen all of this before. That doesn’t disprove the idea that he’s above Lee. You’re harping on Neji saying “yikes“ and claiming that means he’s in fear of the Lotus, maybe he’s saying that because Lee just mastered it and he hasn’t seen Lee that strong before that point? That doesn’t necessarily imply that Lee‘s stronger than him and even if it did, I can just use your argument that it was in the past and they weren't as strong as they were in the Chūnin Exams

My point wasn't just that the lotus > Neji
It was that the only time Neji has ever blatantly been noted to show a reaction about Lee's power prior to the 3rd gate was when he learned the Lotus.
AKA all his blank face showings in the chunin exams meant nothing.

Neji literally just looked at him, and somehow supports the notion that he’s comparable to a weakened Sasuke. LMAO

You use Neji not blinking at Lee to support the notion that he's superior to his gates but I can't use Neji giving a concerning look to a combo to support the notion that they're comparable. Okay now.

Also, as I said earlier, you’re being inconsistent with your logic. You handwave away all the other statements comparing Neji to Lee as ”oh it’s taijutsu skill, oh it’s the Gentle Fist, etc” but then you turn around and try to use this statement from Tenten to limit his AP? You’re cherry-picking when these statements refer to AP and when they don’t.

When they witness Neji's skill, that's when other characters bring up the notion of "Sasuke's not a match for Neji"
But watching a barrage from Sasuke is questionable for his measurement in power.

Here's how it works.
When somebody is capable of matching your skill with solely AP, you have an AP or a dura limit. You can be the most skilled person in the world, but if somebody manages to be put on your level solely because of AP, there's an AP limit.

"I can fight level 20 foes solely because of my skill and strength"
"I can fight level 20 foes solely because of my strength"
The one who can do it solely with strength has a strength edge over the other who needs skill to close the gap.

That is for Sasuke and Neji.
Neji and Lee is the opposite. Neji is able to counter Lee's strong AP with his skill, AKA the difference between Goken and Juken.

It's not inconsistency with logic. It's situational.

This is after he’s seen Lee use the Fifth Gate and Reverse Lotus, so… not really helping your point here.

Lee isn't using the front lotus nor the reverse lotus if they ever spar again based on the rules they have against Lee using it.

No… he wasn’t. At no point there does Lee question anything, he’s excited to fight Sasuke and says that he can hardly wait to go toe-to-toe with him.

Why is he excited to fight somebody he would molly whop.

Except for the point that you completely ignored, when Guy himself said that the key to Lee beating Neji was the Reverse Lotus. Now why would Lee need the Reverse Lotus to beat Neji if he was already 5x stronger and faster than him with just the First Gate?

He never said this. Ever. I checked the chapter, that was in reference to Gaara, not to Neji.

Guy literally never mentioned Neji. He said it was the answer to defeating GAARA.
And he said he was keeping it in reserve for Gaara because of the stuff I said below

That line does not exist.

I didn’t say that Lee said he couldn’t beat him without it, don’t put words in my mouth, please. I said that it’s clearly implied by Lee keeping it in reserve, as well as Guy saying that it was the key to beating Neji, which again, you completely overlooked.

Again, Guy didn't say that. And that's not implied in the slightest. It means "I don't wanna show this to anybody but you".
I hate to bring up other verses but this is the same as DBS Goku saving SSB Kaioken for Beerus. He didn't want to show it to anybody but him for their rematch.
That says nothing about strength, they just wanted to wait, which is why they haven't used it against any other enemy.

When Lee’s 5x faster than him in the First Gate alone and even faster with the Third, Fourth and Fifth Gates? Mm, I don’t think so. Neji wouldn’t be able to land a single hit on a Gated Lee or use his Kaiten in time unless his combat speed was relative to his, your interpretation here literally does not work otherwise.

You don't know how speed works in that sense then.
Kaiten doesn't require you to have comparable speed. Kaiten is Neji shooting chakra outside of all of his chakra points in order to block. It can move an inch out of Neji's body (like it did against Naruto) and it'd cover enough distance in the same timeframe Lee could move tens of meters.
3 line calc.
Neji's chakra moves 0.2 meters.
Lee's fist moves 1 meter.
Lee = 5x Neji.

Neji's chakra can be a fifth as slow and still be able to block said attack.

If people wanna agree with Tracer then I don't care, but please people don't agree because of "he kept the Reverse Lotus in reserve".
He never said that.
I skimmed the manga chapter he quoted (Chapter 86) several times, and that was directed towards Gaara, not Neji.

Nevermind
I see that they were talking about Neji in the actual raws. That's crazy.

Anyways my point about rotation works for that regardless so yeah.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I think Neji technically just needs to be superior in speed to still be "stronger" than Lee since strength is relative and Neji has the fighting style capable of defeating him regardless of how strong Lee is. Speed is the only thing he really needs in my opinion otherwise he'd be blitzed.

 

[KingTempest]

I think Neji technically just needs to be superior in speed to still be "stronger" than Lee since strength is relative and Neji has the fighting style capable of defeating him regardless of how strong Lee is. Speed is the only thing he really needs in my opinion otherwise he'd be blitzed.

He's kinda canonically confirmed to be slower than base Lee

 

[LordGriffin1000]

He's kinda canonically confirmed to be slower than base Lee

Are you refering to that statement from Guy? Didn't think we used that given base Lee considers Neji his superior no? Though from your other comment you seem to be arguing the Rotation is Neji's saving grace?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

When Lee’s 5x faster than him in the First Gate alone and even faster with the Third, Fourth and Fifth Gates? Mm, I don’t think so. Neji wouldn’t be able to land a single hit on a Gated Lee or use his Kaiten in time unless his combat speed was relative to his, your interpretation here literally does not work otherwise.

Well uh Lee is 5x faster than him

Are you refering to that statement from Guy? Didn't think we used that given base Lee considers Neji his superior no? Though from your other comment you seem to be arguing the Rotation is Neji's saving grace?

You don't need to be as fast as someone to be superior overall. Look at BSM Naruto and Hashirama for example.

 

[KingTempest]

Are you refering to that statement from Guy?

Yeah and some other stuff

Didn't think we used that given base Lee considers Neji his superior no?

I literally just noticed we randomly didn't... wth

Though from your other comment you seem to be arguing the Rotation is Neji's saving grace?

Yee

 

[LordGriffin1000]

You don't need to be as fast as someone to be superior overall. Look at BSM Naruto and Hashirama for example.

Not sure that's the best example given Naruto/Hashirama are more stacked with abilities compared to Lee/Neji.

I literally just noticed we randomly didn't... wth

Yeah, didn't see it on his page so I assumed it was one of those statements we yeeted.

Yee

I mean I guess that could work.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Not sure that's the best example given Naruto/Hashirama are more stacked with abilities compared to Lee/Neji.

Eh Neji's got a fair share of abilities

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

EssaychihaSlayer

This is nothing.

muahahahahahahahahahahahaha i have made you return!

Eh, we'll see. I may very well just be keeping up the tradition of fake retiring.

ew
I'm gonna spare everybody including myself by spoilering this just so this whole thing doesn't take up the page

Heh, you really have no idea how much worse it could be.....

Spoiler: Lee, Guy, Jirobo, Kisame, and Jiraiya are fodder who scale below baby Konohamaru ong

Him being in the 1st gate doesn't make any sense, because he was slower than he was in base after he got injured from the lotus, he was stated by like 3 completely different people that he was out of steam, and every time we see him use any lotus, he gets dramatically tired afterwards and gets out of his gates form.

I don't know why you're bringing up speed here, it's irrelevant. He was "slower" because he couldn't actually move, due to his leg being injured, which he had to heal by activating the second gate. Anyway, my main point was that he took Gaara's attack here, so unless you're planning to scale injured base Lee to Gaara's sand, then him being in the 1st Gate makes far more sense. You're looking at the speed aspect and ignoring the physical strength boost the gates also offer. He couldn't move because his leg was busted, but that in and of itself doesn't negate the possibility that he was still in the first gate or that he still enjoyed the lack of physical inhibitions it offered, which last I checked is the reason they even get the 5 times multiplier to strength and speed. Ngl, I'm beginning to hate that multiplier, but whatever, this isn't the thread for that.

I'm claiming he's injured because he's working off of the damage he got from the forest of death. He still has those same bruises, and has consistently showed those bruises throughout the preliminaries. He was already breathing hard in the beginning of the fight after running around very few times.
Everybody save for the Sand Siblings and maybe a few others who weren't in combat were all already working off of injuries from the forest of death.

It's not claims I can't substantiate. It's claims yall didn't notice. Shit, it's claims I didn't notice until I reskimmed over it.

I mean, sure, I know that much, but it's not an "injury" that's debilitating him in any way. The reason he's breathing hard is because his speed is taxing for his stamina and hard to maintain, but he pushes through regardless. My issue is that the average joe reading your post will assume that Lee was suffering from some major nerf here, when that is not the case. The scuff marks ain't some debilitating injury.

Alright, "many times" is incorrect", I'll admit. But on the subject of Lee, lemme note the genuine truth of Lee's growth.
Lee didn't start off the fight trying his hardest.
He started off slower, not hitting Gaara and still moving slower than the sand, not being able to break through it.
Then he quickly and gradually gains speed, later punching through the sand.
Yes, he punched through the sand, as the kanji used effects like "wham", "pow", "bam" after he already speared through it with his punches and kicks, meaning that those are the sounds of him punching through it.
If you watch the anime (support), you can see him punching through the sand multiple times.

KT, stop it. Lee did not punch through the fully formed Sand Shield. He became fast enough to hit through it before it fully forms into a shield to protect Gaara. That whole sequence was meant to show how much faster Lee was, as he simply became too fast for the sand to keep up with, effectively negating Gaara's defense altogether, which is why he resorted to the Sand Armor, because it's a more passive shield that doesn't require any speed. Like, don't be silly, Lee can't even injure Gaara through the much weaker Sand Armor with the Gates, and here you are trying to scale base Lee above the Shield smh.

Then he kicked him in his face and drew slight blood, something that Temari noted, him actually being able to hurt Gaara.
Then after Guy told him to explode, he gains speed again, and now he's outspeeding the sand that he had to punch through prior.

Base Lee broke the armor twice because he hit him twice. The first time he hit the armor and actually wounded Lee, the second time he crumbled the entire armor.

KT, I know for a fact that you're not a disingenuous person, so I can only assume that you're having an Mrk moment here. You've got to be.
Lee didn't draw blood. It was all damage dealt to the Sand Armor, we literally see this.....
And before you harp on the "blood", it does not matter. If Gaara can change the sand's color and texture to simulate skin tones and tattoos, he can do it to simulate "blood", too.
Lee canonically did not deal damage to Gaara, as the first person to actually injure him was stated to be Sasuke. This is an irrefutable fact.

This makes no sense whatsoever.
Gaara casually exists with a thin layer of sand on his body, but when he activates the full on armor of sand, he ends up willingly holding up the armor on his body and adding more sand, which takes a lot from his stamina.
If he casually withheld that from after the fight, he'd be using ridiculous amounts of his stamina just to walk around... forever. That doesn't make any sense, as we don't see him put that much sand back on his body until he does the partial transformation.

I'm not even sure what you're saying here lol. I never said he's using that amount of sand all the time...........?

Temari said he wounded him, and we can see a deep crack that extended to his face and drew blood.

Already addressed this, no he did not.

The reformed SA can scale/backscale or w/e, but it shouldn't scale to the later characters.
We see Gaara not put up the same level of sand. We see how thick the shell he used against Lee is, and it's much thicker than the small fragments that Sasuke tore off.

Lee's regular punches and kicks literally did the same thing though? They only tore apart small fragments too. Even the Reverse Lotus didn't completely destroy it, as I've shown in my previous post.

Lee destroyed the armor with the Front Lotus. Gaara left it, which is why it was like that, but the Front Lotus destroyed the armor.
Guy even said that his armor wouldn't stand up to his attack. "How would Guy know about its limits" its Guy. Come on. He just watched all the feats of the armor.
Kankuro who knows Gaara was even scared for Gaara after taking the lotus.

Gaara substituted out of the armor to trick Lee and create an opening, which he did achieve. Like, there's no reason for him to get slammed into the ground and take the full brunt of the attack when he doesn't really have to. The abandoned shell wouldn't be hardened by his chakra, as that would just be a waste of chakra, so it breaking isn't really much of an anti-feat either. The fact remains that we see it time and time again that the Armor took attacks from Gated Lee, like it objectively did. I don't agree with the armor not scaling on any level.

The Most Important Thing Here​

Also, I don't know if you noticed, but the front lotus specifically is the pile driver, not the kicks upward.
The kick upwards is just the setup for the Shadow of the Dancing Leaf, which is the setup for the Front Lotus (which destroyed the shell).
Lee did those kicks already against Sasuke and Dosu, but against Sasuke right before he wrapped him, they said that it was just the attempt to break the rule, open Kaimon, and use the Front Lotus, aka he didn't break it yet, aka he didn't use the Lotus.
Lee already kicked him up, but he said the pile-driver is the move that'll exceed his genius, which is why he only calls it the Forward Lotus when he's bringing the enemy down.
But everything else, the kicks, the running, all of that was his base speed and strength.
That's why when Sasuke runs in circles around Gaara, that's when they compare it to Lee's full speed and Lee's taijutsu, even though they said he was slower than his average prior. That's base Lee.

Lee kicking Gaara up several times prior to the Shadow of the Dancing Leaf isn't him with the gates. That's his base.

Ngl, I see no proof here for anything here besides the fact that the pile driver is the Front Lotus, which everybody knows. I don't see how any of this proves that the moves prior aren't using Kaimon, unless his base speed is supposed to hurt him too? Also I think it's pretty clear that he opens Kaimon for the whole sequence imo.
But like, even then, this really changes absolutely nothing regarding anything I said.

The way the databook phrases it is that it willingly turns into weak sand so that it can catch and grab victims.
That's why whenever Sasuke is hitting small amounts of sand, he pushed through, but he couldn't fully push through his clone.

I see zero proof in that scan that the clone's sand is weaker, it just says that the clone is different from other cloning Jutsu in that it doesn't perfectly assume the user's appearance and remains as free flowing sand, allowing it to change shape and grab opponents, but it says absolutely nothing about it being any less durable than his regular sand or anything of the like. The feat is perfectly valid IMO.

No disrespect intended at all but we (me and Sparkle) kinda just had this convo above.

Don't care, I make my own points of my own volition regardless of what others said in the past. I haven't personally seen a convincing debunk of that point as a supporting piece of evidence.

...bro his current profile already debunks all of that.

Mf, you do know I wrote that shit right?

The first 2 he was getting absolutely bodied, he just has the stamina to stand up after he keeps getting put down.

It's an endurance feat, yes, but it's also a durability one for sure.

the 3rd one he got bodied by a single swipe and he hit him in his weak spot with a bomb.

I'm aware, which is why I said it was a meme and wrote in italics.

and the 4th one he didn't recover from the damage when he got jumped by a thousand clones.

He didn't recover, but he still had sand all around himself, which Naruto still destroyed. But either way, this instance was clearly an amped Naruto, as I've pointed out, so it wouldn't scale to his normal stats regardless. It's still worth noting, though.

Honestly, I'd be fine with upscaling to 8-B+, but I genuinely feel like my arguments explained why Sasuke shouldn't scale up to 1st Gate Lee

Well, I personally disagree for my reasons.

Already agreed on rotation scaling.

Coolio.

This here isn't much of a problem to me. I'll get to that

Good, cause out of everything, this is definitely the biggest deal breaker for me. Improving the profiles' quality is my long-time passion project, so I will not be compromising in that department. I'm sure you get where I'm coming from, having pulled a verse out of the dirt yourself.

Thank you.

You're welcome boo .

Uh, yeah, I think this'll probably be my last post. If I need to clarify something, I will ig, but beyond that I think we'd be going in circles atp.
Just get more staff to look at the arguments or something.

 

[KingTempest]

Didn't read above yet, but because this damn snake calc keeps changing values and I honestly didn't think about all the people that the calculation would affect, plus all the new scaling I was trying to read yet, I think it's wise if I just... wait it out

So another thread that's more orderly and accurate could be posted, but for now, sorry, and closing