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Monika(Doki Doki) Vs. Naofumi (Shield Hero)

I guess nothing.

Maybe Infinity Zero, Because her EE is based on data manipulation she couldn't use it in a universe where everything isn't made up of data...But that kinda depends on the universe they are in.

Medea can use conceptual attacks to instantly kill her opponents by materializing the concept of death on the target(s) to end their lives instantly. The attack is also imbued with the concept of "bringing an end to all possibilities", allowing it to affect past, present, future versions of the target(s) and all versions of them in every parallel or divergent world. She can also have the attack destroy the laws of the world and the law of cause and effect.

^^^He can also tank that
 
verse equalization lolnopes the no data arfument.

thats pretty good, and how does he counter nonexistence?
 
@Ricsi

Well usually verse equalization would let charcters use the full use of their abilities, but one of Naofumi's abilities literally go against that.

  • 'Infinity Zero: A defense and sealing spell. It makes it impossible for the opponent to destroy the world in battle and created barriers around the universe that prevent the opponent from escaping, even with teleportation. Furthermore the spell prevents the use of godly powers within the world and forces everyone to obey the worlds laws. In case of the world Naofumi was summoned into this means that the opponent is bound to stats. For example the speed of a bullet within that world is dependent on the statistics of the one firing the gun and can be both faster or slower through that. It is also important that the HP dropping to 0 means death, meaning that immortality gets.' negated.
Naofumi can travel between universes too, so if he had a good reason to believe he was facing some kind of trouble he could instantly travel through the multiverse to a world where he is comfortable, then seal his opponents "Godly" powers making his opponent only be able to obey the laws of the universe they are fighting inside of.


I don't know if he has a way to get past her nonexistence.
 
yeah man, nlf, i dont know if he even can hit a non exictent, but he sure as hell cant kill them.

but plot should still wordk as far as im aware
 
Umm...He's stated immortal, but we don't know if that means "Forever young." He at the very least has decent longevity, as we can see from the After stories (iirc).

Also...NLF? Well...It's not really NLF imo it's just a decent combo of Law manipulation/forcefield creation/sealing/Power Null.
 
most immortals tend to give eternal ife.

i meant him nulling imortality. therer is no way he gets past monikas version of it.
 
Oh...well I don't know it depends. Logically his Law manipulation could get rid of any immortality under the right circumstances (He got rid of type 9 immortality via Law manipulation)
 
type 9 is just having an avatar. non existence kind is litiraly having nothing left to destroy. its like trying to kill space
 
Yeah, but he doesn't have to kill non-existence..He makes the non-existent charcter bound by the Laws of the universe which doesn't allow non-existent charcters.
 
that is impossible though, he would litiraly need to bind something that doesent exist, and she resist law manipulation. its a part of plot
 
Um..I wouldn't call that plot manipulation....There wouldn't even be such a thing in said universe. All of her data based powers would be useless(All of this is conditional, he would have to actually draw her into said universe first).
 
dud,e verse equalization. we assume there are always such things as souls and plot (and how would there not be plot in a story?) and fate unless stated otherwise
 
Verse is equalized, she absolutely starts off with all of her data powers. The way his law manipulation works, unless she has shown resistance to a similar ability, she shouldn't be able to escape it.
 
YungManzi said:
Verse is equalized, she absolutely starts off with all of her data powers. The way his law manipulation works, unless she has shown resistance to a similar ability, she shouldn't be able to escape it.
Click to expand...
Plot manipulation, it litiraly is a love child of deadpool and law manipulation, with a bit of fste in there, it puts rules and makes certain actions impossible, and non existent beings tend to be immu e to such things, as there is nothing for the law to affect
 
@Ricsi

IDK...Almost all of her powers (besides maybe nonexistence) are based on data manipulation. Naofumi could make it so there is no data to manipulate inside of the universe which would still get rid of all of her offensive abilities even if he can't get rid of her nonexistence (Because It prevents the use of godly powers inside of the world). Even her resistance to plot manipulation comes from data manipualtion.
 
Doing...What exactly? Not allowing data to be manipulated...In Doki Doki Data manipulation=Plot Manipulation by manipulating the game files. Naofumi's universe (As-in the universe we spend the most time in and the one where he beat the final villain) isn't actually a game universe so she can't manipulate game files.

Remember...This is all if he somehow manages to get her into a universe that would weaken her powers such as his own.
 
No dude, just no, thats not jow it works, tbey are in a world where all of they powers work, and verse equalisation takes care of the rest, the idea that lol there is no data is as logical as me saying that a random character is immune to soul manipulation because there is rapresentation of a soul in the verse.
 
And its an nlf unless it has shown to be able to e ter a verse not made out of information when all matter is made out of information
 
No...It doesn't neg data/information manipulation entirely it specifically negs Monika's version of the power becausenof the criteria which is needed in order for her abilities to be effective (it needs to be a game universe).

The story where Naofumi is from has plenty of different universes all with set applications, his ability is to make a "god" bound by the limitations of a universe they are sealed inside of with no means of escape.

Its sole purpose is to neg verse equalization.
 
No, thats false, it doesent need it to be a game universe, what are you basing that off? It litiraly needs there to be data, the end, hell, a non game universe doesent hold her back like the doki script does
 
It does have to be a game universe because Monika's powers have eveeything to do with the fact that she is a video game character who can manipulate game files.
 
she can manipulate data, it has been never stated it needs to be a game, the opposite, in fact, plus he couldent affect a nonexistent at all, let alone get her into another universe
 
Her powers are stated and explained through game file shenanigans, therefore, it's only possible to use them inside of a game universe...that's all I'm saying. Like I said before, even if we count resistance to plot manipualtion as resistance to Law manipualtion (which is a huge stretch in and of itself) Her resistance to plot manipulation comes from game data manipulation which would be impossible for her to use (at that point) via Naofumi's skill.

All of her data manipualtion feats are via game files, she has never manipulated the data of a universe without game files. As I said before, normally verse equalization gets rid of that issue, but Naofumi's power is to neg verse equalization(And, since it's an actual power it should at least be treated as one).

It's certainly possible to get her into another universe via running away and having her chase after him, the question is if she would actually chase him.

As far as affecting her nonexistence...maybe he can...maybe he can't. We don't know if nonexistent beings are possible in Naofumi's universe, there's also the issue of which power would take precedence, would Monika have an HP bar, and is nonexistence a type of immortality? His ability is supposed to work on practically unbeatably hax enemies (Not saying it works on much stronger characters, but it should probably work on most characters on his level who don't either have very high resistance to plot manipulation or resistance to law manipulation)
 
No, its explained that the ge holds her back. Its is never said that the data manipulation relies on the game. And how is it a strech? The script litiraly decides the laws a d phisics of the game. And thats not how resictance works anyways, she could resist the player, who is not even part of the script and game, in his true form, anyways.

But im calling nlf, when has he shown to enter a world whitout matter? And even more so, when has he shown the ability to force a nonexistent into a universe, or to know that an invisible, non percivable being capable of erasing him and probability manipulating him? Even more so, since when does going to another universe get rid of the fact that he himself has a file via verse equalization? The only way to get rid of that is non exictense or astral existence.

Thats stupid, not to be offensive, but its just stupid. Maybe he can maybe he cant is not a viable reaoning, at all. Burden of proof. No she would have no hp bar, because she doesent exist, and the idea of his ability is supposed to work on haxed characters is nlf incarnate, burden of proof
 
@Ricsi

1. " Its is never said that the data manipulation relies on the game."

From her Profile: Data Manipulation (Can affect the data of the game)

I've played the game, so I have a pretty good idea of how her powers work.

2. "And how is it a strech? The script litiraly decides the laws a d phisics of the game."

Unlike Naofumi's law manipulation, the script hasn't shown the ability to negate the powers of a 2-C and trap them within the story (Its only really shown to force characters to follow a sequence of events, which is actually fate manipulation rather than law enforcement). Monika doesn't even have too much control over the plot itself because no matter what she did she could still never become the main girl. Her manipulation feats come from affecting the data of the game, not really the plot of the story.

Even if she could manipulate the physics of a universe (If you consider game mechanics manipulation physics manipulation) she doesn't negate naofumi's power null law manipulation without game data manipulation.

Most of your arguments ignore the fact that these feats are done via game data manipulation, which Naofumi negs.

3. "But im calling nlf, when has he shown to enter a world whitout matter?"

Um...I don't know what you're asking here...verse equalization starts them off in an equal world where both of them can use all of their powers.

4."And even more so, when has he shown the ability to force a nonexistent into a universe,"

Never said he could force her into a universe....I said it's possible to lure her into anotther universe.

5. "or to know that an invisible, non percivable being capable of erasing him and probability manipulating him?"

Probability manipulation, when? Also, both charcters can see/sense each other at first via verse equalization.

6. "Even more so, since when does going to another universe get rid of the fact that he himself has a file via verse equalization? "

It doesn't, I'm saying this is a possible scenario: He turns into light and travels through the multiverse to find his world or a world similar to his, she chases after him. They arive in the world together and he immediately seals the two of them within the universe, negating all of her data manipulating powers because Naofumi's world isn't bound by data.

7. "The only way to get rid of that is non exictense or astral existence."

Or power null...

8. "Thats stupid, not to be offensive, but its just stupid. Maybe he can maybe he cant is not a viable reaoning, at all. Burden of proof."

Well, we have evidence of how his power works, in a sense...His power is just high level power null via another ability. Kinda like how the death note has death manipulation via fate manipulation. I said "maybe he can maybe he can't" because based on what we know about the shield hero verse there isn't enough information given to us to conclude if it would neg her nonexistence...Well it would if the laws of the universe directly contradicted the idea of a nonexistent entity but we don't know if that's the case...so I'll just say that it can't just to prevent further arguments on this subject

9. "No she would have no hp bar, because she doesent exist, and the idea of his ability is supposed to work on haxed characters is nlf incarnate, burden of proof."

How far does her "Non-existence" go? Saying that she can resist Law manipulation, sealing, and Power null just because she can exist after having her data folder erased is nlf in and of itself. All that really grants her is high resistance to existence erasure.


At this point we might just have to agree to disagree....this has gone on way too long....lol I'm surprised nobody else has joined this thread yet.
 
Yes, but its never specified to be game only, directly stating the game is holding her back.

Exept the plyer, and monika, who was still affected by it after destroying it, and sayori too.

No, verse equal means that he has a chr. File, nothing to do with worlds. They start in our world.

Again, no, she has the range to simply not need to enter the universe

Plot manipulation is litiraly law and probability manipulation, it tells what will happen 100% of the time, throwing possibility and probability out of the window And no, thats blatantly fals. The only thing close to that is bleach, but in that case its because of lack of spiritual energy somone cant be seen, here she cant be seen even by the likes of the player.

She doesent need to chase, and can just snipe,. Or erase his world, but HE is affected by verse equal too, and would have a chr file.

No, a chr file is not a power, its litiraly somones exictence, its not something monika does, its something everyone has.

Yes, and as all nulls, unless shown we asume it cant.

Complete nonexictence, her mind and body were erased. Read the non exictwnse page for more info on that
 
@Ricsi

You're right about the range.

They are immune to conventional harm. That surely doesn't include Power null, sealing, and Law manipulation.

He starts off with a chr. file, yes.

Plot manipualtion is way too variable, it certainly isn't always Law and Probability manipulation.
 
Yes it does, there is nothing to null. The only listed weakness is possibly voidanipulation.

And he keeps it, because traveling doesent erase you from exictence.

But is here,. So your point is moot
 
Nonexistent Physiology, per default, protects you against neither law manipulation nor power null.

As the page on the subject already states: "While those with this ability continue to "exist", the state of their being is that of nothingness on one level or another. "

Nonexistent Physiology is never true nonexistence in pure sense. If you really didn't exist, you would also not have abilities and would not be capable of doing anything. A nature of nothingness alone doesn't justify resistance to power negation, as the powers in common terms very much still exist. It isn't even like all users of the ability are non-corporeal.


All in all the ability is rather paradoxical in that we are talking about existing and not existing at once. The uses of the ability only go as far as the verse has detailed its uses and powers, everything beyond is baseless speculation based on what the ability could potentially do, but doesn't do necessarily.


Plot Manipulation is also not law and probability manipulation, it is closer to reality warping via different means. (The plot manipulation page states as much actually)

Just like for reality warping it is a power that can potentially be used to create virtually every effect, but in practice assuming it to be able to do things beyond its showings is arguing based on insufficient evidence (in other words a hasty generalization fallacy).


My vote btw. goes to inconclusive as it is hard to tell how the powers would interact (even beyond infinity zero)
 
the non exictence ablity, while paradoxical like omnipotence, depends in level, monika was erased in both mentail, phisical, and overall her data was, and the plot couldent affect her anymore. it does give rsictence to law manipulation because there isnt anythiong for the law to affect. its nonsensical, but the amount of inlogical abilities that still work due to it being fiction is insane,


plot manipulation variates greatly, and law and probability are both reality warping abilities , ot can be done with it, in doki doki, it litiraly was used as law manipulation and probability manipulation. law as in make actions impossible and events non aviable, and prob by increasing the probability of hoosing monika to a 100 %
 
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