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Might Guy Upgrade Thread and Kakashi Key Merge

KingTempest

He/Him
VS Battles
Thread Moderator
21,022
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I'm tired so I'm not typing up a formal thread today.

Base Might Guy should get an upgrade and Kakashi's first and second key should be merged.

Base Guy's speed justification should be "faster than Kakashi" for this.
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That should warrant a possibly superior in AP as well.

Consistent with the databook stats.
Might Guy has this for strength and speed
Screen_Shot_2021-05-16_at_7.29.43_PM.png

Kakashi has this for strength and speed
Screen_Shot_2021-05-16_at_7.29.34_PM.png


And his strength and Skill was noted by Itachi and Kisame to be taken seriously, and they've only seen him in base.
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Now Kakashi, we see his 2nd and 3rd Databook stats, exactly the same.
He hasn't shown to have gotten stronger, no proof he got stronger, doesn't even have a statement of strength growth or training.

His new keys would be like this
Key: Pre-Fourth Shinobi World War | Fourth Shinobi World War | Dual Mangekyō Sharingan | New Era

Speaking of keys

We should merge all of Guy's keys.

Keys are for different versions of characters. Guy's stats show that he hasn't changed at all. It's just "A-1, A-2 with 1st Gate, A-3 with 6th Gate, A-4 with 7th Gate, A-5 with 8th Gate"
 
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I agree with this. To say that Kakashi during Part 1 is a Genin/Part 1 characters (children) is completely idiotic.
 
Since this is a guy CRT, I'd like to add that Guy should also have a key for his first gate given that's where the Sub-Rel scaling comes from and a note added to the verse page as well. I think this will help make it easier for people not familiar with the verse to figure out where the rating comes from.
 
Since this is a guy CRT, I'd like to add that Guy should also have a key for his first gate given that's where the Sub-Rel scaling comes from and a note added to the verse page as well. I think this will help make it easier for people not familiar with the verse to figure out where the rating comes from.
Speaking of keys

We should merge all of his keys.

Keys are for different versions of characters. Guy's stats show that he hasn't changed at all. It's just "A-1, A-2 with 1st Gate, A-3 with 6th Gate, A-4 with 7th Gate, A-5 with 8th Gate"
 
Key: Part I and Part II (Pre-Fourth Shinobi World War) | Part II (Fourth Shinobi World War)
Why not just “Pre-Fourth Shinobi World War | Fourth Shinobi World War?” That looks much less cluttered.

Anyways, I guess this is fine I don’t like it, but it’s fine
 
Speaking of keys

We should merge all of his keys.

Keys are for different versions of characters. Guy's stats show that he hasn't changed at all. It's just "A-1, A-2 with 1st Gate, A-3 with 6th Gate, A-4 with 7th Gate, A-5 with 8th Gate"
Yes please, I was actually gonna suggest this.
 
Damn you, now I can’t downgrade the speed of the Part I jōnin

Although I could upgrade Kurenai now-
She reacted and blocked a kick from Itachi mid-genjutsu, has higher speed stats than Hidan, it's possible
 
While I agree with the revision overall, I don't like using Sasuke's statement. While he's seen Kakashi in action, I don't think it's accurate to say he knows Kakashi's full speed and is only going off what he has seen. Though it doesn't really matter given the stats support it, like I said, I still agree with the revision overall.
 
Sasuke is only Kishimoto's way to state something. Naruto doesn't have a narrator, so the statements comes from the characters.
 
Attack Potency: At least Town level (As one of Konoha's strongest ninja, he should be significantly stronger than Choji, and should also be stronger than Asuma), possibly higher (Sasuke thought he was stronger than Kakashi), higher with First Gate (First Gate multiplies his strength by 5 times), Large Mountain level, possibly higher with Sixth Gate (Far stronger than his First Gates form. Defeated Kisame's clone that had 30% of his chakra and fought against V2 Jinchuriki alongside Kakashi)|, Large Mountain level+ with Seventh Gate (Stronger than his 6th Gate form. Was able to defeat Kisame Hoshigaki), Likely Continent level+ with Eighth Gate and Evening Elephant (Able to cause noticeable damage to Rikudo Madara and would have given him "trouble" in successful, consecutive strikes), Moon level with Night Guy (Obliterated Rikudo Madara's left side, nearly killing him in the process. Also, Night Guy was stated to be a stronger attack than Evening Elephant.)

Speed: At least Massively Hypersonic+ (Faster than Kakashi, was able to intercept Kisame while he was mid-attack), at least Sub-Relativistic, possibly higher with First Gate (First Gate multiplies his speed by 5 times), higher with Sixth Gate (Far faster than his First Gates form), even higher with Seventh Gate (Faster than before), at least Relativistic, likely FTL with Eighth Gate (Much faster than before. Overwhelmed Six Paths Sage Madara multiple times and distorted space with pure speed)
 
Sasuke is only Kishimoto's way to state something. Naruto doesn't have a narrator, so the statements comes from the characters.
They could have just had Guy say he was faster than Kakashi.
I mean, he saw him fight Zabuza... and I don’t see why Kakashi wouldn’t have been going full speed against Zabuza.
Didn't Sasuke not see Zabuza move and get right next to him, Sakura, Naruto and the bridge builder?.

I'm just saying Sasuke wasn't the best why to establish it in my opinion. Regardless, I'll stop derailing since this is accepted.
 
That would have no value. Guy always say that he is always superior to Kakashi, really, it would have no value.
Like I said, I'm not gonna derail this since it's already accepted, I simply just disagree with you on this.
 
A few minor things.
possibly higher (Sasuke thought he was stronger than Kakashi)
Is this really necessary? Kakashi is baseline 7-C, possibly being stronger than him doesn’t really warrant a ‘possibly higher,’ imo.
Likely Continent level+ with Eighth Gate and Evening Elephant (Able to cause noticeable damage to Rikudo Madara and would have given him "trouble" in successful, consecutive strikes)
Can we remove the ‘Likely’ from this key? Guy was definitely harming Madara, and Madara said it’d be bad to get hit by multiple of Guy’s attacks, or his fists.
at least Sub-Relativistic, possibly higher with First Gate (First Gate multiplies his speed by 5 times)
The ‘possibly higher’ seems unwarranted when this is a solid 5x multiplier.
 
Even though I don't like some of the potential implications for this, I'll let it go for now because the specific changes presented in the OP are harmless.
However, there is something I'm not okay with.
And his strength and Skill was noted by Itachi and Kisame to be taken seriously, and they've only seen him in base.
Itachi is warning Kisame based on his personal experience and knowledge, which is NOT limited to their encounter in Part I. Itachi has seen Might Guy in action back when he was an Anbu Captain, 8 Gates and all. He's also a literal spy, who's main job was intelligence gathering for both the Uchiha Clan and Konoha's elders; meaning there's very little about the Village and its inner workings that he's not aware of. It's not like Guy's abilities are a secret anyway.
That is to say, there's little to no proof that Itachi was referring to base Guy with this statement, so I am vehemently against scaling base Guy to or above Itachi and Kisame because of it. Especially when the feats clearly don't support that notion.

With that being said, I'm fine with everything else. Kakashi scaling is fine, his Key merging is probably fine (though I'm pretty sure @Shadowbokunohero was heavily against it in the past), and Guy key merging is 100% needed.
So yeah, those are my thoughts.
 
A few minor things.

Is this really necessary? Kakashi is baseline 7-C, possibly being stronger than him doesn’t really warrant a ‘possibly higher,’ imo.

Can we remove the ‘Likely’ from this key? Guy was definitely harming Madara, and Madara said it’d be bad to get hit by multiple of Guy’s attacks, or his fists.

The ‘possibly higher’ seems unwarranted when this is a solid 5x multiplier.
Attack Potency: At least Town level (As one of Konoha's strongest ninja, he should be significantly stronger than Choji, and should also be stronger than Asuma. Sasuke thought he was stronger than Kakashi), higher with First Gate (First Gate multiplies his strength by 5 times), Large Mountain level, possibly higher with Sixth Gate (Far stronger than his First Gates form. Defeated Kisame's clone that had 30% of his chakra and fought against V2 Jinchuriki alongside Kakashi) , Large Mountain level+ with Seventh Gate (Stronger than his 6th Gate form. Was able to defeat Kisame Hoshigaki), Continent level+ with Eighth Gate and Evening Elephant (Able to cause noticeable damage to Rikudo Madara and would have given him "trouble" in successful, consecutive strikes), Moon level with Night Guy (Obliterated Rikudo Madara's left side, nearly killing him in the process. Also, Night Guy was stated to be a stronger attack than Evening Elephant.)

Speed: At least Massively Hypersonic+ (Faster than Kakashi, was able to intercept Kisame while he was mid-attack), at least Sub-Relativistic with First Gate (First Gate multiplies his speed by 5 times), higher with Sixth Gate (Far faster than his First Gates form), even higher with Seventh Gate (Faster than before), at least Relativistic, likely FTL with Eighth Gate (Much faster than before. Overwhelmed Six Paths Sage Madara multiple times and distorted space with pure speed)
 
Attack Potency: At least Town level (As one of Konoha's strongest ninja, he should be significantly stronger than Choji, and should also be stronger than Asuma), possibly higher (Sasuke thought he was stronger than Kakashi), higher with First Gate (First Gate multiplies his strength by 5 times), Large Mountain level, possibly higher with Sixth Gate (Far stronger than his First Gates form. Defeated Kisame's clone that had 30% of his chakra and fought against V2 Jinchuriki alongside Kakashi)|, Large Mountain level+ with Seventh Gate (Stronger than his 6th Gate form. Was able to defeat Kisame Hoshigaki), Likely Continent level+ with Eighth Gate and Evening Elephant (Able to cause noticeable damage to Rikudo Madara and would have given him "trouble" in successful, consecutive strikes), Moon level with Night Guy (Obliterated Rikudo Madara's left side, nearly killing him in the process. Also, Night Guy was stated to be a stronger attack than Evening Elephant.)

Speed: At least Massively Hypersonic+ (Faster than Kakashi, was able to intercept Kisame while he was mid-attack), at least Sub-Relativistic, possibly higher with First Gate (First Gate multiplies his speed by 5 times), higher with Sixth Gate (Far faster than his First Gates form), even higher with Seventh Gate (Faster than before), at least Relativistic, likely FTL with Eighth Gate (Much faster than before. Overwhelmed Six Paths Sage Madara multiple times and distorted space with pure speed)
Guy fought the first Jinchuuriki version of Madara, which is in "At least Continent level+, likely Moon level" so the Night Guy should be like that too, right?
 
I have no idea, I'm just taking what's on the profiles
Fair.
I think the 6th Gate should be "At least High 7-A", since that's the value the V2s and Kakashi scale to.
As for the 7th Gate, I guess upscaling to High 7-A+ might not be out of the question since it's a massive boost. Otherwise, we can always just go with "At least High 7-A, likely higher".
 
While I agree with the revision overall, I don't like using Sasuke's statement. While he's seen Kakashi in action, I don't think it's accurate to say he knows Kakashi's full speed and is only going off what he has seen. Though it doesn't really matter given the stats support it, like I said, I still agree with the revision overall.
^My thoughts
 
Now Kakashi, we see his 2nd and 3rd Databook stats, exactly the same.
He hasn't shown to have gotten stronger, no proof he got stronger, doesn't even have a statement of strength growth or training
I've noticed a bit of a problem with this. The databook claims that Kakashi's stamina has stagnated all the way back from Part I, sitting at a 3 for all DBs. This is inaccurate, as his stamina has clearly improved significantly throughout the series (not just in the War Arc). For instance, early on, he could barely use the Sharingan and Lightning Blade for small skirmishes against people on his level (such as Zabuza), to the point of being out of commission for a while. In Early Part II, he could continuously use the Sharingan against Naruto and Sakura until sunrise. Even if you argue that Naruto and Sakura are much weaker than Kakashi, and thus don't require that much effort to hold off, it wouldn't matter because the activation of the Sharingan itself drains stamina passively.
He also used it extensively against stronger opponents, such as Kakuzu, alongside several Raikiri's and other Jutsu, and was still confident he still had enough chakra to activate and use the Mangekyo Sharingan.
We saw his limits against Pain, but it was still FAR more than anything he showed previously, as he used numerous Jutsu (multiple Raikiri, Raiton Clone, Raiton Hound, Continuous Sharingan activation, 2 Kamui uses, etc) and was up against a significantly stronger opponent.
All of this is to say, that there was clearly some development there, as we know stamina and chakra reserves can only be improved via training. Same with the Sharingan, it can only be improved through continuous use or training.

He also developed new Jutsu such as Kamui, Raiton Cable, Raiton Clones, etc, which also shows that he has trained and developed.

Would this warrant that we treat his P1 and P2 stats differently? I'm not sure, but I definitely think it should be noted that his stamina has significantly improved, and that he has clearly developed.
 
Kakashi keys should still be separated by parts even if the Tier is the same, their approach to Combat is different enough to justify this, along with an assortment of new skills and tricks.
There's also the fact that they paint part 1 Kakashi clearly below the likes of Kage in part 1 and then in Part 2 prior to the war he is considered a candidate for hokage. he wouldn't be 7-A or anything (just like Danzo) but it does highlight a clear improvement over his part 1 self.
 
There is still no reason to have two Keys. Same ratings, the only things that change are some skills and change in stamina. You need more than that to add a new Key.

Keys should be merged + justification for his stamina increase.
 
There is still no reason to have two Keys. Same ratings
this is false, we have dozens upon dozens of keys on the wiki that are purely based on their abilities and once again, part 2 Kakashi is clearly superior even if it's not a tier change.
 
It doesn't matter if other profiles do this, it is irrelevant. They are wrong. Keys are created when there is a huge difference between two versions of the same character. Kakashi would not have any significant changes, he would only have an increase in Stamina and some new techniques, nothing impressive enough to create another key.
 
The simple solution is to create two keys, Part I and Part II (Pre-Fourth Shinobi World War), and reserve them to tabbers for his Powers and Abilities. Or just create two tabbers exclusively and keep the keys themselves merged.
 
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