Mewtwo vs. Reinhard van Astrea

[Heinkel_Astrea]

What the hell mate. When did I say nothing will hit Reinhard?

I am saying nukes not exploding clearly has nothing to do with precog and dodging. That's totally different from advocating NLF. Flat and simple. Focus on that fact.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

That's what i have been saying, and it's why i have it listed on reinhard's profile as a separate blessing, nukes not exploding clearly fall under a different blessing which we don't know about.

The nuke blessing is also specific, i don't see how that will add anything here, we should get back on topic here and discuss who wins.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

And I said just now that differentiating the 3 blessings don't matter anyways, as we go by their demonstrated examples rather than description. Apparently you agreed.

Err nuke blessing is also not really 'specific' to nukes only; suppose that you change the nuclear warhead to a conventional or chemical warhead on the same delivery system. It still won't hit.

It's more reasonable to posit that it makes modern man-made weaponry fail around him.

Anyways, my point is that by demonstrated examples, there are a lot of Reinhard's defenses that do not rely on precog and dodging.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Ok, let me try to understand this, you're saying that differentiating the 3 blessings is irrelevant cause they ultimately work together to make attacks not hit him?

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

We have to assume so because we cannot go by their description as per VS rules. We have to go by their demonstrated examples. At that point, there is no way of knowing which Blessing is the one that activated, unless the Author tells us which, so we have to default to using... demonstrated examples. Yes.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

See the thing is there are no demonstrated examples, we don't even know how they work, and if not for that scan and tappei stating he had those blessings, we wouldn't even know a lot of them existed. They don't work how they are stated to by the author, in the story, from what i have seen, there is no mention of reinhard having a blessing that makes all attacks miss him, but there is mention of precog. Some of the blessings are also useless since stronger ones exist, first and second attack immunity make arrow avoidance useless, however tappei has said the blessing that's needed activates when it's needed so that point is irrelevant i guess.

The point is the author says reinhard has all these blessings, and he has shown some of them like phoenix or arrow guarantee where he threw a spear and from some ways away and it hit regulus, or even arrow avoidance since elsa's knives changed trajectory when thrown at reinhard. We don't know the limits of them, what if someone threw a projectile at reinhard that erases the concept of distance and manipulates concepts to always hit their target would that not hit? You can't equate knifves missing him to something ridiculous like concept manipulation, or causality manipulation or even reality warping. You can't ascribe feats for which characters haven't show, as that leads to NLF's. Reinhards blessing are pure NLF if taken literally, as such should be ignored if they lead to NLF's until we have as you said demonstrated examples of how they work so we can see the exact limits of them.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

So Elsa's knife turning around is Reinhard having precog and dodging the knife? Answer that question.

Nuke not exploding is precog and dodge?


And stop getting fixated on the definition of 'reality warp' for ****'s sake. I explained this already.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

No i am not denying that he has arrow avoidance, you are confusing what i am saying here, i wasn't saying first and second attack immunity and arrow avoidance all come down to precog, i was just saying first and second attack immunity is just precog since as i said before he has to actively dodge things and not just stand and all things miss him, he has been shown to have precog that distinguishes all attacks in advance, so it would make sense that all things miss him simply cause he knows they are coming and dodges them.

You are stuck on the definition of the blessings, i am trying to find explanations for how they work. First and second attack immunity, arrow avoidance and that blessing that makes nukes not detonate are all seperate things however we don't know how they work, what i am saying is an explanation for first and second attack immunity is simply precog, i don't have any explanation for how the others works.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

And you are not getting the point that the three are not, in fact, distinguishable logically and scientifically. You are just making an assumption.

There's no proof that first and second attack immunity work on precog and arrow avoidance doesn't, and vice versa. We have no scientific and logical way of telling them apart.

TL;DR Reinhard has defenses that don't rely on precog and dodge. Several of them act on the projectiles rather than on Reinhard by magic. That's all we can tell. Really this should be the only relevant discussion here.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

How are they not distinguishable? What's the point in having multiple blessings in the first place then? You are saying well we don't know which one is working at a given time, and i am saying that first and second attack immunity alone makes the others irrelevant, and tappei has said the needed blessings activate when needed, so yes the blessings are separate but the needed ones activate when needed.

You still are dodging the fact that reinhard isn't untouchable, if he has all these defenses and what not, why block attacks from elsa, why not just stand in one place when regulus attacked him, why does he dodge?

Again i am trying to answer those questions as first and second attack immunity are clearly nonexistent in the story since he has to dodge and block attacks, how did cecilius who we know only uses lightning, overpower reinhard and force him to use reid if all attacks miss him?

Either you accept that first attack immunity and second immunity are just bs since he actively dodges attacks and can get hit, or you accept that yea they don't exist but he still has precog which lets him distinguish all attacks in advance or you accept that first attack immunity and second attack immunity is just precog which with first attack immunity lets him distinguish one attack in advance and dodge them, hence they don't hit him and with second attack immunity, he distingues all attacks in advance, hence nothing hits him.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

"You still are dodging the fact that reinhard isn't untouchable"

LoL I'm not. Where did I say this? I challenge you to find where I did.


"and i am saying that first and second attack immunity alone makes the others irrelevant"

Obviously not because there are demonstrated examples that attacks miss him even if he doesn't even move.

The only way you would be correct, that it makes others irrelevant, is in fact, if I am correct; that first/second attack immunity works with both precog/dodge and non-precog/dodge methods.

You have to quit strawmanning. This is flat and simple. Attacks have demonstrated to miss him in both precog/dodge and non-precog/dodge situations. BOTH. The blessing doesn't work by a single mechanism like you suggest. It has multiple mechanisms. That's the important fact, also shown and demonstrated in the story by direct observation. This is an entirely different supposition from accusing me of 'Reinhard isn't untoucable'

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

I feel like Reinhard's hax and blessing will give him the edge he needs

but Mewtwo wins via picture *shot*

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@Heinkel You realize that the other blessings working just proves my point right? You are assuming that all the blessings work together, when this has never been established in the story, and first attack immunity has never been referred to in story from what i am aware of. Tappei has said that stronger blessings take the place of weaker blessings, just looking at his blessings list should tell you if everything already misses him, what use is arrow avoidance? Arrow avoidance has been shown in the story, so what does that tell us, well clearly he has use for it and literally all attacks don't miss reinhard, why cause the way in which all attacks miss him is not that literally everything misses him cause then what use is arrow avoidance, but all attacks miss him cause he has precog and can then dodge everything.

And i have no idea where you get the idea attacks have missed him in both precog/dodge situations and non-precog/dodge situations. The only attacks that have missed reinhard is elsa's knives and that nuke not detonating but again that's different from attacks not hitting or projectiles not hitting him.

Show me evidence first that first attack and second attack immunity are blessings he has in story, in otherwords show me evidence that reinhard has said "i have this blessing that makes all attacks miss me" then show me proof of attacks missing him besides from him dodging, and the knives missing which fall under arrow avoidance and nukes not detonating which fall under that unknown blessing. The only thing that explains first and second attack immunity is precog which is something explicitly stated in story.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

A lot of words spinning around and strawmanning but it should actually be you who have to find the evidence. Find the evidence that it is precog and dodging that make superhuman dirks move around on their own and nuclear ballistic missiles fail to explode.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Ok this is clearly going nowhere. You are assuming that all the blessings work together, which has never been established, and then you are now putting all the other blessings under the attack immunities? I just said they are all separate and in the case of arrow avoidance has been shown in the story, and that one that makes nukes not work is just a statement, however it doesn't fall under either the attack immunities or arrow avoidance, why? Cause it stops nukes from detonating, it's not that the attacks miss reinhard.

The attack immunites have never been established in the story, reinhard has never said, to my knowledge"i have this blessing that makes all attacks miss me", this is contradicted by what happens in the story as no all attacks don't miss reinhard, he has gotten overpowered, in the case of cecilius and his leg hurt in the case of regulus. What has been established is that he has precog that distingues all attacks in advance, now how does that line up with the attack immunities? If he knows an attack is coming he can dodge it, so the attack misses.

Again the attack immunities are contradicted by events of the story, either those blessings are complete bs cause it doesn't work how it says it does, or it is explainable since reinhard has been established in the story to have precognition. Show me proof of the attack immunities existing in the story, author statements aren't unquestionable, it can be rejected if it contradicts events in the story, and it clearly does in this case since it's never established in the story, and reinhard has gotten hurt before.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

And what makes you think it's not the second attack immunity that made the superhuman dirk move around on its own without Reinhard moving a finger?

And mate, you are really dragging out the issue of the nuke. I am simply saying... Reinhard has defenses that do not rely on precog and dodge. Just focus on that.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Cause he already has a blessing that makes projectiles miss him and in the literally description of arrow avoidance in that scan that list some of reinhard's blessings says that elsa's knives missed him because of arrow avoidance.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

As far as I know, that was not written in the scan itself; it was a supposition from the person who translated it. So use this chance to verify it.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Are we literally gonna have to get that scan translated, just so we can prove it's attack immunity and not arrow avoidance, when thrown knives are clearly projectiles which would fall under arrow avoidance which makes projectiles miss, and reinhard has been proven to be hurt before which disproves attack immunities since if that was the case he wouldn't get hurt in the first place?

This is pretty obvious to me, and i am not gonna argue this anymore, as we clearly can't agree here, and in the first place this is entirely irrelevant to this match up since even if we accepted whatever you are proposing as fact, it won't matter anyway since in vs matches those blessings would lead to NLF's so they aren't relevant here.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

Okay. These are the facts we were able to verify so far, with only the 2-3 fights Reinhard had in the story.


Projectiles missing him on their own has nothing to do with precog and dodge. Fact.

Explosives not exploding has nothing to do with precog and dodge. Fact.

Therefore, this statement: Reinhard has defenses that do not rely on precog and dodge is also fact.


These are already proven as fact by demonstration, not by ability description. Somebody is just getting fixated on separating the blessings when in VS, that's not even necessary or even treated as distinctive capabilities.

Concluded.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Sigh facepalm, and reinhard still gets hit with attacks in story fact regulus hurt his leg, why are you avoiding this fact? Projectiles missing him falls under arrow avoidance, bombs not detonating is clearly something else as it has nothing to do with attacks not hitting him. You are the one fixated on combining these blessings when they are clearly separated and have never been established to be combined and you have no proof of them ever been stated to be combined but you are assuming stuff.

Again attack immunity has never, i repeat never been a thing in story, arrow avoidance is, the nuke whatever is just an author statement but there is nothing contradicting it, not only has attack immunity never been established, there are contradictions in the story.

Seriously i am done discussing semantics on these blessings which are irrelevant to this match since they are NLF's anyway, i am getting agitated now so i will not reply to anything else on this topic, in fact i advise you to drop it, as it will be derailing this thread since it's not relevant to it.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

? Where am I even saying that Reinhard doesn't use precog?

I am saying that he uses both. You are the one denying that he doesn't use both.

Hello. He has one form of defense. He also has another. That's the definition of both.

No, there is no need to either combine or separate blessings or even use them. Even his 'precog' was already included in his reaction speed.