Marvel Scaling Rules possible changes

[Arceus0x]

I don't think so? You can bloat keys for minor characters still, that's worse imo than bloat for major characters, because people actively check major characters' pages for scaling

If a minor character has so many potential for keys then honestly this is probably a big outlier and it'd be easy to see if its getting bloated. Not checking minor character profiles honestly seems like a problem of the marvel supporters rather than the profile's problem. They'd have to add them via CRTs anyways, if one can't notice whether the key is worth adding or not then that means they've failed to pay attention and it would've gotten added anyways.

Unfortunate, should've had more appearances.

If "sucks to suck" is your approach then I vehemently reject it - its a lame excuse for a rule that arbitrarily cuts off important additions and should be revamped to fit different circumstances. Otherwise it is just a lazy way to avoid responsibility.

Like, I think it's pretty self-explanatory? They're minor characters. We can afford compromises on minor characters, less so for major characters.

You can afford it, yes, but why should it be afforded in the first place when you could just notice whether the keys are pointless or not. Pretty sure adding "gun the guy picked up that one time" and "super sayian transformation the guy used to beat the main villain" are easy to notice as different.

Accounting for the scaling of 5 keys in Spider-Man's file is more important than accounting for 5 keys in Toxie Doxie's file. People half-assedly apply revisions with the pagecount we have NOW, let alone one where you might have to check multiple keys on top of files to get the scaling for each right.

Unfortunate, should've paid more attention

I dunno man, I think it isn't vague at all personally, and trying to reword it mostly sounds like making the text of the rule needlessly verbose and letting unnecessary caveats.

Except its vague af and people have questioned it several times already afaik. The fact that I couldn't understand the rule partially already means that there's gonna be more people who will misunderstand it. You may get it cause you were directly involved with its discussion but others won't, I mean hell, there wasn't even a CRT linked anywhere, you couldn't read the specifics at all.
Either way we aren't printing papers here, we can be as verbose as necessary and I don't think these are unnecessary caveats but NECESSARY caveats that actually paint a fair picture of what should and what shouldn't be added.

 

[The_Impress]

If a minor character has so many potential for keys then honestly this is probably a big outlier and it'd be easy to see if its getting bloated

Arceus no offense, but how many Marvel revisions have you participated in and done? Or comparably active and large scale verses? Like were you a big SCP or DC guy?

I mean hell, there wasn't even a CRT linked anywhere, you couldn't read the specifics at all.

Back in the day you used to be able to see the threads on the wiki itself, and very few threads used to tag for Power-Scaling Rules, so you didn't really need to, back in the day.

Fun wiki history.

 

[Arceus0x]

Arceus no offense, but how many Marvel revisions have you participated in and done? Or comparably active and large scale verses? Like were you a big SCP or DC guy?

Does it really matter? If CRTs aren't getting checked properly then that's on the staff. If CRTs aren't getting checked properly then it means they're already not getting checked properly already - so unless we trust in the process, wouldn't that mean none of the profiles are actually reliable?

Back in the day you used to be able to see the threads on the wiki itself, and very few threads used to tag for Power-Scaling Rules, so you didn't really need to, back in the day.

Fun wiki history.

I know about that but since it happened in 2022 it wasn't clear if it was before forum form on nah. Still, that's fair, but it still needs to be added up as a note so people can read the specifics of what's been decided and why.

 

[The_Impress]

Does it really matter?

Yeah, because you're currently making arguments for wiki behaviour consistency and policy, so I'd like to know when you claim "You'd just know what keys are pointless" and "this is laziness" how valid is your experience in making these claims.

In my experience:
1. Staff are unpaid volunteer workers, many of whom are teenagers, so their reliability is questionable
2. None of the profiles are reliable, it's vs. debating. If it was entirely objective with no room for subjectivity, it wouldn't be a debate. Even beyond that, A METRIC TON of VSBW pages are unreliable or outdated even if we act like staff are god, this is something we know transparently.
3. A sizeable portion of minor characters can be given many keys because power evolution and drastic change in technology. Most Marvel characters are tech-based.
4. We have had multiple revisions in the past year that just, broke scaling irreparably, or weren't applied fully, or a billion other **** ups.
5. Staff support can 1000% go the other way and try to argue certain major keys and pages are irrelevant and delete them. I know. Before these rules you could have an 80 issue character that staff randomly deemed minor and deleted off the face of the Earth, meanwhile Broken Tiershit Cosmic Fucko #9909 gets to have a file on 3 appearances. You REALLY DO NOT want this shit maintained on staff input. Matthew Schroeder was staff. Lina Shields was staff. Hell, I was staff. Do you really want my grubby paws on your month-long research project, telling you what's right or not on vibes?
6. "super sayian transformation the guy used to beat the main villain" isn't worthwhile. Nobody wants a lame-ass super form key for every random fucko to aura-farm, and these are usually the most forgotten keys during scaling to. I literally have a "key" like that (more of a part of the character's powerset so it's valid to just list) on one of my pages (Scott Lang page) that got excluded in a revision because the guy applying the thread forgot.
7. 90% of all minor keys in Marvel that used to get accepted by staff and put on pages before the rule, were "guy picks up cosmic gizmo for 15 minutes". So y'know, history doesn't support this that much.

It's better to be realistic than idealistic. We are volunteer workers and hobbyists, we don't get paid for this, so I'd rather have pages that accept their limitations than ones that live a lie and require a 9-to-5 to maintain or otherwise just fall into horrendous disrepair.

The fact that I couldn't understand the rule partially already means that there's gonna be more people who will misunderstand it.

I mean man, you skipped a whole word ("file") before making the thread on it lol

 

[Arceus0x]

Yeah, because you're currently making arguments for wiki behaviour consistency and policy, so I'd like to know when you claim "You'd just know what keys are pointless" and "this is laziness" how valid is your experience in making these claims.

I admit I have not spent much time on marvel revisions. On the other hand I have spent a lot of time here on the wiki - I know from my personal experience that whilst some staff don't seem to give much thought to revisions, others thoroughly check them, especially if they're involved in the verse and especially if the verse is popular, like marvel. I believe that it is possible to be attentive here.

In my experience:
1. Staff are unpaid volunteer workers, many of whom are teenagers, so their reliability is questionable
2. None of the profiles are reliable, it's vs. debating. If it was entirely objective with no room for subjectivity, it wouldn't be a debate. Even beyond that, A METRIC TON of VSBW pages are unreliable or outdated even if we act like staff are god, this is something we know transparently.

Honestly if you believe that so many pages are unreliable then it begs the personal question of - what are you still doing here? Additionally even if staff members are unreliable at times, they are the best we got when it comes to checking things, at this point it starts becoming less about staff working with marvelverse and more about the wiki itself.

3. A sizeable portion of minor characters can be given many keys because power evolution and drastic change in technology. Most Marvel characters are tech-based.

Doesn't that mean that those characters aren't shown properly on our wiki then? If a man has several suits of mech armor for example, even if you don't add it as a key it should still be part of his equipment unless it was a one-time unreliable powerup. It's not like they'd be the first character on the wiki to have many keys and I very much doubt it'd be like 20 (and if they are then just make sure they don't get 20, for that specific character)

4. We have had multiple revisions in the past year that just, broke scaling irreparably, or weren't applied fully, or a billion other **** ups.

Subjective, next.

5. Staff support can 1000% go the other way and try to argue certain major keys and pages are irrelevant and delete them. I know. Before these rules you could have an 80 issue character that staff randomly deemed minor and deleted off the face of the Earth, meanwhile Broken Tiershit Cosmic Fucko #9909 gets to have a file on 3 appearances. You REALLY DO NOT want this shit maintained on staff input. Matthew Schroeder was staff. Lina Shields was staff. Hell, I was staff. Do you really want my grubby paws on your month-long research project, telling you what's right or not on vibes?

Thing is, I never disagreed with the rule when it comes to character appearances. I think the issue rule for character themselves is fair and regulates things well. Using the rule Cosmic F-ko ain't gonna be added and 80 Issue character will be added. My problem with is with the part of the rule that says 80 issue character can't have a powerup that he used for 12 issues of his appearance for no reason in particular other than issue count.

6. "super sayian transformation the guy used to beat the main villain" isn't worthwhile. Nobody wants a lame-ass super form key for every random fucko to aura-farm, and these are usually the most forgotten keys during scaling to.

Extremely subjective. If I had a character I liked and the wiki just said "oh that awesome form is completely irrelevant lol sucks to suck" I'd be rightfully pissed off. It's not all about interscaling - many characters have their own stories here and just deleting entire parts of them for your own subjective convenience is, to me, just as bad as "having your grubby paws on your month-long research project". It's the same thing from two different sides. Doesn't matter whether you're getting shot in the back or the front if its gonna hit you in the head anyways.

I literally have a "key" like that (more of a part of the character's powerset so it's valid to just list) on one of my pages (Scott Lang page) that got excluded in a revision because the guy applying the thread forgot.

Honestly speaking here - skill issue. Also like I said before I don't mind the rule applying to characters with a bajillion issues as at that point they become exceptionally hard to manage. Also like, as mentioned by users above, there's big characters who have gotten transformations that are low in appearance despite those rules so like, the rule barely works anyways.

7. 90% of all minor keys in Marvel that used to get accepted by staff and put on pages before the rule, were "guy picks up cosmic gizmo for 15 minutes". So y'know, history doesn't support this that much.

Except I already excluded that part out didn't I? Picking up random object and using it on the spot then never using it again is very much not "narratively important" enough for it to be added. That's why I wrote out the "verbose" ruleset for them

It's better to be realistic than idealistic. We are volunteer workers and hobbyists, we don't get paid for this, so I'd rather have pages that accept their limitations than ones that live a lie and require a 9-to-5 to maintain or otherwise just fall into horrendous disrepair.

And I think just paying attention to the revision threads will be more than enough to keep it from falling into disrepair. They all need staff approval anyways, capitalize on that - in a way it already is getting 9 to 5 coverage.

I mean man, you skipped a whole word ("file") before making the thread on it lol

 

[The_Impress]

Honestly if you believe that so many pages are unreliable then it begs the personal question of - what are you still doing here?

Sunk cost fallacy

Additionally even if staff members are unreliable at times, they are the best we got when it comes to checking things, at this point it starts becoming less about staff working with marvelverse and more about the wiki itself.

We have like, 4 guys who verifiably read comics, and 3 of them are usually inactive

Doesn't that mean that those characters aren't shown properly on our wiki then?

Usually that's enough of a reason to not make a file for them at all, it serves to knock them out on the key rule even if they meet file eligibility otherwise

Honestly speaking here - skill issue.

It's more of a problem with the game rather than the player if it keeps happening on every other major thread.

And I think just paying attention to the revision threads will be more than enough to keep it from falling into disrepair. They all need staff approval anyways, capitalize on that - in a way it already is getting 9 to 5 coverage.

 

[Arceus0x]

Sunk cost fallacy

Everything's free here so can't really say there is a cost

We have like, 4 guys who verifiably read comics, and 3 of them are usually inactive

Then get some new guys or rely on someone reliable to, ya know, check things on whether its legit or not whether in or out of context. It's what we small verse supporters do, maybe its something you've done too. Marvel is big n all but in all actuality it doesn't seem like its more special than the rest of the verses here - so why are we treating it like it is?

Usually that's enough of a reason to not make a file for them at all, it serves to knock them out on the key rule even if they meet file eligibility otherwise

Seems like a very cheap way to make characters not get added. You've a rule for that already. You already can't add a character with less than 20 appearances unless they're important. To me this very much seems like its reinforcing an unfair agenda that really shouldn't have happened in the first place. Times a changing, wiki is smaller, there's less activity for Marvel. A thousand bums aren't gonna pop out to add their 10 chapter scrimblo to the wiki with their 1000 keys, people are too lazy for that. Instead its best to at least make the rules fair and reasonable for the characters that are supposedly allowed by these rules.

It's more of a problem with the game rather than the player if it keeps happening on every other major thread.

Can't change the nature of the wiki or of people - can we? Doesn't mean a rule should remain the same way if it doesn't make any sense.

 

[FinePoint]

Everything's free here so can't really say there is a cost

There's the cost of our time.

Anyway, I do see Impress's points, though I also think we shouldn't sacrifice the completeness of the rules just due to fear of people not following them.

Though if we want to allow certain profiles without allowing all of them, why not just add a small, vague enough note to keep things from over-complicating without giving any explicit green-light to anything specific?

"There may be leeway to this rule if the character in question has relatively few appearances but still more than twenty."

 

[Antvasima]

What about particularly narratively important power-ups for extremely major characters? Should we make exceptions for them?

 

[FinePoint]

What about particularly narratively important power-ups for extremely major characters? Should we make exceptions for them?

Like power-ups which are essential to resolve the plot, such as one needed for them to defeat the villain at the end?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I was thinking about Rune King Thor ending Thor's story for several years, along with the Ragnarök cycle itself for the Asgardians, but "herald of thunder" Thor seems less relevant, and to not really be much of a power-up, as it basically just meant Thor with the Odinpower + the power of a herald of Galactus, with the latter being comparatively insignificant, so it can likely be incorporated into his Odinforce statistics key.

 

[Arceus0x]

bump

 

[The_Impress]

Idk man, this is the same revision that gets proposed every time by people who don't really contribute anything to the verse maintenance and want to score easy revision wins off of increasing burden on the supporters who stick around.

As said we can't even ******* update the current number of pages. This isn't even like, anything statistical or misrepresentative, it's a basic ass limitation for wiki sanity (that honestly isn't even working as effectively anymore), and I can't even fathom why time and time again people have a hard time wrapping their head around it. There are like, 10-15 versewide proposals (IN MY ATTENTION, mind you, NOT EVEN shit that's getting prepped elsewhere) that are in the works, whose application may as well take upwards of an year to fully apply.

This isn't our job, we aren't getting paid jack to make these changes and keep up with them. Where the **** else have you heard of a HOBBY project taking upwards of an year??? Usually by the end of it you have a publishable book that you can recuperate your time sink costs on, or at least something way the hell more respectable than just "I CHANGED THE NUMBER ON ONE INTERNET PAGE FROM 2 TO 5" or some shit.

The wiki so far has been ******* delusionally unaware on the ever-increasing time investment it demands of the users, especially for large scale ongoing verses ever since the comparable verse and staff (SCP) got yeeted (frankly for being so ******* mismanaged that people found whatever excuse to kick it out), and these rules are honestly the only rules that give a singular shit about the users over dogshit verse representation.

Wiki needs MORE rules like this, not LESS.

That'll all I say on the matter.

 

[Arceus0x]

I ain't gonna judge your crash out or whatever, it's probably valid, but I ain't proposing something insane here. All I want is fairness. All I want is for the rule to be lenient for characters with less than 30 appearances or so due to the fact that some transformations or keys could exist for half the character's existence and still not be used. It's literally that simple. If you want to, fine let's not overcomplicate things and do that rule only for the 30 appearance cap, but good grief let's do it.
All I hear from the argument above is "marvel scaling is annoying, I don't wanna deal with more stuff" but the thing is you won't even be dealing with that much stuff, I can compromise and just say we suggest the rule change for characters with 30~ appearances or less since 15 is basically half of their existence. There aren't that many characters within that frame that get added or have that many transformations. All I want is for that to be treated fairly.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Impress. This is likely not remotely realistic. My apologies.

 

[Arceus0x]

This is likely not remotely realistic.

What's not "remotely realistic" is applying 15 chapter rules to a character with 20 chapter appearance. Now that is stupid. This is some "hiring 20yo with 10 years of experience" type shit.