Marvel Scaling Rules possible changes

[Arceus0x]

I've been snooping as usual around the wiki and for a few reasons decided to look into the Marvel scaling rules. As we know these are the statements:

• For keys in existing profiles, and equipment files, one only requires at least 15 appearances across comic books, as opposed to 20.

Now this got me wondering - why?
Now I am not a Marvel buff see so I decided that maybe there's a very good reason aaaaaaaand it has no linked CRT and was added by Imp-ress in 2022 here

Now since everyone uses it (it seems) I firstly want to suggest that whoever is responsible for suggesting those revisions actually adds the CRT somewhere, just link it as (It was accepted here) because lil ol me couldn't for the life of me find where that could've been added and now I don't know specific reasons which leads me to point 2

Why are the rules so strict on keys and equipment? The minimum appearances required for a character is 20 chapters. So let's say a guy appears and then gets a powerup in chapter 7 of his appearance. This would mean he'd still have 13 chapters (over 60-70% of his existence) where he used that key, powerup or equipment. With this rule in mind it wouldn't get added. As you can imagine this seems rather stupid.
Additionally, why are we even being so harsh on that in the first place? I understand only adding important characters or characters with 20 chapters of appearances but what's the issue with powerups? Why have that rule in the first place here? I understand that if a character suddenly absorbs something shoots one guy with it and never uses it again - maybe its not the best thing to use since it is extremely situational. But what if its a serious powerup that the character can use to actually fight - why shouldn't it be a key?
The point of our wiki is to scale characters at their strongest - no? It's one thing to not give a man a gun as equipment because this one time he grabbed a gun from the floor and shot it - but if its something notable (think super sayian transformation or a piece of equipment that they got in a last fight of their appearance) why shouldn't it be added?

Of course, I could just be misunderstanding the whole damn thing - although that would further prove my point that it needs to be specified and a CRT needs to be linked.
That is all.

 

[Re5yh]

Looks good, I agree

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I'm pretty sure Venom breaks this rule anyways with his two strongest keys.

 

[Arceus0x]

I'm pretty sure Venom breaks this rule anyways with his two strongest keys.

that's why I'm saying I could be misunderstanding something lol

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Since this is a controversial topic, it might be something that gets moved to staff thread but that "Marvel experts" will be allowed to comment. I won't do that yet, but knowing how Antvasima acknowledges how controversial Marvel/DC comics are, he might do that.

 

[Tomfer]

Why are the rules so strict on keys and equipment? The minimum appearances required for a character is 20 chapters. So let's say a guy appears and then gets a powerup in chapter 7 of his appearance. This would mean he'd still have 13 chapters (over 60-70% of his existence) where he used that key, powerup or equipment. With this rule in mind it wouldn't get added. As you can imagine this seems rather stupid.

I was planning on making a crt about that. I'm (trying) to revamp Tigra and her human form originally only had 5 issues, but they were still important since it still had lots of feats and a reasonble scaling chain.

My plan was to make exceptions for debut keys, allowing them to bypass the rule if they have enough content to index.

 

[Antvasima]

This is staff only now, and from what I recall, @The_Impress , myself, and others added that rule to avoid our profile pages being bloated with extra keys for every single brief power-up that the Marvel Comics characters have received throughout their 86 years of history.

 

[Arceus0x]

This is staff only now, and from what I recall, @The_Impress , myself, and others added that rule to avoid our profile pages being bloated with extra keys for every single brief power-up that the Marvel Comics characters have received throughout their 86 years of history.

Whilst I understand your concern, why should they be limited still? Like I said, obviously someone picking up a gun mid-fight and using it wouldn't make it part of their arsenal, but if its a state in which they fought seriously then why not?
I also think its, yet again, counter-productive against characters with shorter appearances. I think it is better to limit the rule to characters who had appeared in many many issues and limit their keys to ones that are important. I think limiting it based on chapters is unreasonable and very arbitrary. I am sure there's notable powerups that are being overlooked right now simply because they aren't important to scaling and only appeared for a short time, but had a notable effect in the story.
Overall, I think we're heavily limiting the quality of the profiles, the rule should not apply for characters with short comic runs and only apply on a case-by-case basis for the characters with lots of history.
Additionally there's profiles (like venom for example) that ignore that rule. I don't doubt that there's more (im eyeing Juggernaut but idrk).

 

[FinePoint]

The point of our wiki is to scale characters at their strongest - no? It's one thing to not give a man a gun as equipment because this one time he grabbed a gun from the floor and shot it - but if its something notable (think super sayian transformation or a piece of equipment that they got in a last fight of their appearance) why shouldn't it be added?

Our goal is to scale characters accurately, though I understand how you might have thought otherwise.
We're meant to apply concepts like outliers, PIS, and other measures to not be skewed by limited appearances which inflate what a character is typically portrayed as, or at least to create a separate key for notable exceptions (though not often applied, I have an upcoming thread hoping to address that.)

From that perspective, for characters like those in Marvel, who may have literally thousands of appearances across a hundred different writers, a piece of equipment or an ability which appears only a few times doesn't represent what the character is capable of 99% of the time and thus isn't really accurate to what's regularly depicted for that character.

If you think of "Thor from Marvel Comics" as a character, then in comparison to the powers which are consistent these fringe examples become more of hypothetical what-ifs than a true representation of that character's day-to-day capabilities. That is to say, it would be more fitting to include that thing as a potential modifier to a battle than to assume it's part of it by default. Like: "Thor Vs Hulk but Thor has that device from Issue #293."

So, in conclusion, I think it would be counter-productive to list every single equipment and power collected by a character no matter how obscure, since it would seriously obscure what they're actually capable of versus what they're very sometimes capable of only in extremely specific issues or circumstances.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we had to create a limit somewhere, so only especially prominent and long-lasting temporary power-ups are included, so our profile pages do not turn nearly unreadable and include comparatively irrelevant content, and the fewer appearances, the harder it is to figure out consistent statistics, given that Marvel characters tend to swing wildly in tiers from 9-C to 1-A or higher.

 

[Arceus0x]

Our goal is to scale characters accurately, though I understand how you might have thought otherwise.
We're meant to apply concepts like outliers, PIS, and other measures to not be skewed by limited appearances which inflate what a character is typically portrayed as, or at least to create a separate key for notable exceptions (though not often applied, I have an upcoming thread hoping to address that.)

From that perspective, for characters like those in Marvel, who may have literally thousands of appearances across a hundred different writers, a piece of equipment or an ability which appears only a few times doesn't represent what the character is capable of 99% of the time and thus isn't really accurate to what's regularly depicted for that character.

If you think of "Thor from Marvel Comics" as a character, then in comparison to the powers which are consistent these fringe examples become more of hypothetical what-ifs than a true representation of that character's day-to-day capabilities. That is to say, it would be more fitting to include that thing as a potential modifier to a battle than to assume it's part of it by default. Like: "Thor Vs Hulk but Thor has that device from Issue #293."

So, in conclusion, I think it would be counter-productive to list every single equipment and power collected by a character no matter how obscure, since it would seriously obscure what they're actually capable of versus what they're very sometimes capable of only in extremely specific issues or circumstances.

You missed my point. I did say that very obscure stuff that was used in one specific situation should not be used. What I want is a more case-by case basis and a removal of the rule for those WITHOUT thousands of appearances. If a character appears for 20 chapters and out of them he has a powerup for 10 chapters then the rule prevents him from having that powerup despite being present for half of his career. I think this should only apply to big shots with lots of history and not the little guys which are unreasonably blocked from getting keys.

 

[Arceus0x]

Well, we had to create a limit somewhere, so only especially prominent and long-lasting temporary power-ups are included, so our profile pages do not turn nearly unreadable and include comparatively irrelevant content, and the fewer appearances, the harder it is to figure out consistent statistics, given that Marvel characters tend to swing wildly in tiers from 9-C to 1-A or higher.

That doesn't really address my point in which I mostly talk about characters who have less appearances. When I say Marvel characters I don't mean just characters like Spidey or Iron man you know. Please re-read the op where I outline the issue.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the intended reasons for that rule were to disinclude special states that only appeared briefly, for reasons that I explained above.

 

[FinePoint]

You missed my point. I did say that very obscure stuff that was used in one specific situation should not be used. What I want is a more case-by case basis and a removal of the rule for those WITHOUT thousands of appearances. If a character appears for 20 chapters and out of them he has a powerup for 10 chapters then the rule prevents him from having that powerup despite being present for half of his career. I think this should only apply to big shots with lots of history and not the little guys which are unreasonably blocked from getting keys.

Well, I wouldn't be personally opposed to expanding for exceptions for characters that have less issues.

Two possibilities, I would think, are:

1. Look for a percentage of issues which feature the ability instead.
2. Apply a requirement for total issues before the rule applies.

The first one would be a lot messier and harder to determine, so the second one probably be better, though I'm not sure of an exact number.

 

[Arceus0x]

Since y'all like arbitrary limits then how about this

Characters with less than 50 issues where they appear do not have the rule apply to them at all and is treated fully case-by-case.
Characters with less than 100 issues need 10 issues but can be treated case-by-case
Characters with more than 100 issues need 10-15 yet again depending on importance.

 

[FinePoint]

Since y'all like arbitrary limits then how about this

Well I like the concept, but I'm still not sure on the number.

For context, Iron Man has 680 issues just in the legacy system. If you include every spin-off and alternative numbering system, his total appearances skyrocket upwards of maybe 2000, and most popular characters have a similar thing going on.

Again just using the legacy system: Thor goes up to #789, Hulk up to #810. Spider-Man up to #167 but an even higher degree of reboots. X-Men goes up to #300, Captain America up to #199.

 

[Arceus0x]

Well I like the concept, but I'm still not sure on the number.

For context, Iron Man has 680 issues just in the legacy system. If you include every spin-off and alternative numbering system, his total appearances skyrocket upwards of maybe 2000, and most popular characters have a similar thing going on.

Again just using the legacy system: Thor goes up to #789, Hulk up to #810. Spider-Man up to #167 but an even higher degree of reboots. X-Men goes up to #300, Captain America up to #199.

It's a lot of appearances and I agree with keeping 10-15 appearance rule for them but I just wanna give the little guys a little room. Like isn't it unfair that a character with 50 issues can have an ability for more than a fifth of their storyline but wouldn't be allowed to use it?

 

[Antvasima]

I think that our current rules for minimum number of character appearances and temporarily powered-up state appearances seem sufficient when combined. We should not overcomplicate them by adding lots of hard to evaluate special circumstances.

 

[Arceus0x]

I think that our current rules for minimum number of character appearances and temporarily powered-up state appearances seem sufficient when combined. We should not overcomplicate them by adding lots of hard to evaluate special circumstances.

So you're fine with a character with 20 issue of appearances not having a key that they had for 10 chapters (50% of their existence)? How about instead of relying on conservative measures we actually think about this reasonably? The wiki isn't gonna explode because some champ got 2 new keys. There's several characters who already ignore this rule anyways, didn't break the whole scaling did it?

 

[FinePoint]

I think that our current rules for minimum number of character appearances and temporarily powered-up state appearances seem sufficient when combined. We should not overcomplicate them by adding lots of hard to evaluate special circumstances.

Well, I don't really think it can be ignored that it's not fair to treat a character with just twenty issues the same as one with six hundred.

For similar reasons as we might want to exclude abilities which don't appear relatively often, we definitely don't want to exclude abilities that do appear relatively often.

Then again, I'm not sure if there's actual cases where we've taken it that literally.

 

[Arceus0x]

Also overcomplicating? Really? You look up how many chapters a dude has, if he has less than 100 then the rules apply, if he doesn't they don't. Its simple as that.

 

[Arceus0x]

Then again, I'm not sure if there's actual cases where we've taken it that literally.

honestly most people probably just add the keys and just don't mention the chapter count since they probably forgot this rule exists in the first place. looking at buddy venom in the corner.

 

[Gasper]

I think that our current rules for minimum number of character appearances and temporarily powered-up state appearances seem sufficient when combined. We should not overcomplicate them by adding lots of hard to evaluate special circumstances.

Then i'll go ahead and remeve the last two keys on Venom profile and a Rune King Thor key as well, so we don't break the rules.

 

[Arceus0x]

Then i'll go ahead and remeve the last two keys on venom profile and a rune king thor key as well so we don't break tze rules.

Good point but also - staff thread man, sit down for now

 

[Antvasima]

So you're fine with a character with 20 issue of appearances not having a key that they had for 10 chapters (50% of their existence)?

Well, I don't really think it can be ignored that it's not fair to treat a character with just twenty issues the same as one with six hundred.

I suppose that seems like a valid point.

Also overcomplicating? Really? You look up how many chapters a dude has, if he has less than 100 then the rules apply, if he doesn't they don't. Its simple as that.

Well, we cannot completely remove our temporary power-up rule for characters with less appearances, but we can probably reduce the requirements for characters with less than 50 appearances or so.

 

[Arceus0x]

Well, we cannot completely remove our temporary power-up rule for characters with less appearances, but we can probably reduce the requirements for characters with less than 50 appearances or so.

Why not? What stops you from removing the rule from those characters? Tiny irrelevant additions will be called out in CRTs anyways whilst there's no reason not to keep the rule out.
Also, yet again, just lowering it will still affect characters that are important to the scaling but have less than 10 appearances (like Tigra mentioned above). I think its just best to remove it from them to make it work properly. It's not like that many Marvel CRTs are currently coming out trying to add insignificant powerups (and if they are - they've probably hidden them well enough for you not to notice).

 

[Antvasima]

Because otherwise a character with less than 100 appearances could in theory have many temporary thematically insignificant powerups that would still be listed despite being hard to properly evaluate, and also turn the pages increasingly messy.

But I suppose that we might make exceptions for extraordinarily narratively notable/important temporary power-ups, as long as their statistics are relatively easy to determine, but I am not sure how we should clearly define that distinction.

 

[Arceus0x]

Because otherwise a character with less than 100 appearances could in theory have many temporary thematically insignificant powerups that would still be listed despite being hard to properly evaluate, and also turn the pages increasingly messy.

But powerups simply don't happen that often. If a character with 100 issues gets like 3 new keys over the course of them then it would be way different than characters who would get 60 keys from their 2000 issues. Additionally, I AM proposing to partially limit 100 issue characters, just leave the 50 and below characters out of it

 

[Arceus0x]

Also, like I said before and as others have said before, several characters already have keys that only have short appearances and they're not causing havoc on the scaling, are they? So why bother?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the main issues here are that it is usually very hard to properly evaluate the statistics for temporary power-ups, that those power-ups shouldn't be comparatively irrelevant, and that it isn't good with too bloated statistic keys, but maybe we did not find an optimal solution to those problems?

 

[Arceus0x]

Well, the main issues here are that it is usually very hard to properly evaluate the statistics for temporary power-ups, that those power-ups shouldn't be comparatively irrelevant, and that it isn't good with too bloated statistic keys, but maybe we did not find an optimal solution to those problems?

Isn't that something that simply should be decided in a CRT instead of covered in a generalized blanket of "lol, that's not allowed cause limit"? CRTs exist for a reason. If people didn't bother to read the comic itself and agreed to add a small insignificant powerup, they'd do that anyways especially if nobody mentions how many chapters the powerup appears in. Additionally, some short time powerups could be more important than some of the long-time powerups, why should they be treated lower? Then there's the question that I am assuming but what if a power appears at the end of a character's comic? Like the good ol finale where the mc turns super and fights off the enemy and then its the end? Does that major powerup get deleted because of the rule? I just keep finding more and more issues with this approach.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that if we modify our rules, we should still attempt to cover the concerns I mentioned in some alternatively worded rules instead.

 

[Arceus0x]

Well, I think that if we modify our rules, we should still attempt to cover the concerns I mentioned in some alternatively worded rules instead.

Sure. Let's see here..

"Please note that the rules of adding keys/equipment/powerups are different and have their own requirements. A character with more than 100 issues would require the new key/equipment/powerup to have appeared in at least 10 to 15 chapters. A character with less than 100 chapters requires 10 appearances, although it depends on the context (explained later). A character with less than 50 issues of appearances does not require many appearances but does require narrative importance like the rest of the characters.
Note: there are circumstances in which a character's key/equipment/powerup will get qualified or disqualified for addition regardless of the amount of appearances. These go case-by case but the most important part is narrative importance - as in, how important is that powerup for a storyline. An example of a powerup that doesn't need several appearances to be added: A character gets a powerup at the end of their story where they use it to defeat the main villain. Since this happens at the end it only has one or two appearances, but would still be good enough to add. An example of a character that would not qualify: whilst in action a character sees a gun on the floor and grabs it to shoot someone. This appearance is temporary and accidental, and unless the character keeps the gun and uses it consistently, it shouldn't qualify as part of his equipment.
"

 

[The_Impress]

Adding 500 keys isn't much better than adding 500 profiles. Hard disagree, the rule exists to manage bloat and unfinished file spam. Equipment isn't even a factor, it's talking about equipment FILES, i.e. shit like making a page for Spider-Man's Web-Shooters, not what's on the file itself, that uses the same standards as the regular wiki.

Only clarification there is the number of appearances for a key should be "approximately 15 or higher" not "at least 15".

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Impress makes sense here. Thank you for helping out.

Should we make exceptions for narratively extremely important/notable temporary power-ups?

 

[The_Impress]

that's already implied for everything, although every temp power up during an event would count if we word to it that way

 

[Arceus0x]

Adding 500 keys isn't much better than adding 500 profiles. Hard disagree, the rule exists to manage bloat and unfinished file spam. Equipment isn't even a factor, it's talking about equipment FILES, i.e. shit like making a page for Spider-Man's Web-Shooters, not what's on the file itself, that uses the same standards as the regular wiki.

Only clarification there is the number of appearances for a key should be "approximately 15 or higher" not "at least 15".

I understand more about the rule now (which means we still need to clarify it) but yet again I still think it's ridiculous to keep it for those with less than 50 issues of appearances. Can't have 500 keys if you don't have even 50 appearances, so why should it be a problem. Outside of the latter part (which I agree with) I think you didn't really counter the fact that the rule puts an unfair hamper on characters with low issue counts.

 

[FinePoint]

Adding 500 keys isn't much better than adding 500 profiles. Hard disagree, the rule exists to manage bloat and unfinished file spam. Equipment isn't even a factor, it's talking about equipment FILES, i.e. shit like making a page for Spider-Man's Web-Shooters, not what's on the file itself, that uses the same standards as the regular wiki.

Only clarification there is the number of appearances for a key should be "approximately 15 or higher" not "at least 15".

Ah, my bad, I misread that.

Still, I think for new keys we should be more lenient for a character who has only twenty appearances regardless, no?
"Approximately" I'm not sure really changes anything.

 

[Arceus0x]

Also vagueness isn't gonna help a page that is supposed to, ya know, clarify rules.

 

[The_Impress]

Still, I think for new keys we should be more lenient for a character who has only twenty appearances regardless, no?

I don't think so? You can bloat keys for minor characters still, that's worse imo than bloat for major characters, because people actively check major characters' pages for scaling

think you didn't really counter the fact that the rule puts an unfair hamper on characters with low issue counts.

Unfortunate, should've had more appearances.

Like, I think it's pretty self-explanatory? They're minor characters. We can afford compromises on minor characters, less so for major characters. Accounting for the scaling of 5 keys in Spider-Man's file is more important than accounting for 5 keys in Toxie Doxie's file. People half-assedly apply revisions with the pagecount we have NOW, let alone one where you might have to check multiple keys on top of files to get the scaling for each right.

Also vagueness isn't gonna help a page that is supposed to, ya know, clarify rules.

I dunno man, I think it isn't vague at all personally, and trying to reword it mostly sounds like making the text of the rule needlessly verbose and letting unnecessary caveats.