Marvel: Kang the Conqueror Rework

[The_Impress]

The Imp-ress/Kang Rework

vsbattles.fandom.com

Above page is essentially a rewrite of the Kang the Conqueror page from the ground up.

I will honestly not bother going through the changes, I made no real attempt to even look at the original Kang page and whatever's on there since it's a genuinely garbage page, if something isn't listed in my page, it likely didn't happen.

 

[The_Impress]

@Antvasima @Confluctor @LordTracer @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @SamanPatou

 

[Confluctor]

Looks good.

Although shouldn't he have something higher in this section too? for his weapons?

Striking Strength: Small Building level

 

[The_Impress]

Nah supposedly it's only meant to represent physicals.

 

[Confluctor]

ah, i see

 

[Armorchompy]

seems good

 

[Antvasima]

It seems good to apply to me as well.

 

[Antvasima]

Nah supposedly it's only meant to represent physicals.

That is correct, yes. Physical striking strength means exactly that, not energy beams and the like.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Size Manip justification is missing, otherwise looks great.

 

[LordTracer]

Seems fine

 

[Alonik]

Why the Excalibur is being rated only as Solar System?

 

[The_Impress]

Because it doesn't have a page yet, so presuming worst-case scenario

 

[The_Impress]

Size Manip justification is missing, otherwise looks great.

Also fixed that

 

[Alonik]

Because it doesn't have a page yet, so presuming worst-case scenario

Ok, then seems fine

 

[The_Impress]

Anyways good to apply?

 

[Eficiente]

I don't think the Acausality feat is actually valid. He sees the timeline, that he will be defeated and time travels to stop that before it happens, and now since something that was going to happen won't, he "sidestepped" causality, but there is no change in his past he's being unaffected by. If I was on some random point in time and could see my future I would be able to do the same without Acausality.

The up to MFTL+ would be in attack speed

The evidence of how he summons his OP needs to be better displayed in the profile, like how he does so with ships. There shouldn't be a note saying that he can do it, that reasoning and its evidence should be in his "Can summon" part.

, Immortality (Formerly Type 6; Was able to transfer his consciousness to other versions of himself, upon death)

Can't he still do something like this? He got killed & apparently atomized, but by unexplored methods he briefly afterwards teleported fine near the place where he died, noticing how he was killed, then Doom killed him in the next issue but that wasn't his end.

Corrosion Inducement (Can corrode anything to dust, by a mere touch)

That would be a byproduct of the other powers used there; Absorption as you pointed out later due to feeding on the future of what he touches, and Time Manip due to accelerating it to dust. Without Corrosion Inducement.

 

[The_Impress]

I don't think the Acausality feat is actually valid. He sees the timeline, that he will be defeated and time travels to stop that before it happens, and now since something that was going to happen won't, he "sidestepped" causality, but there is no change in his past he's being unaffected by. If I was on some random point in time and could see my future I would be able to do the same without Acausality.

If you never were defeated you never travelled back in time to stop it, hence it still happened, which isn't the case here. There is a time paradox that is never resolved.

The up to MFTL+ would be in attack speed

Yes.

The evidence of how he summons his OP needs to be better displayed in the profile, like how he does so with ships. There shouldn't be a note saying that he can do it, that reasoning and its evidence should be in his "Can summon" part.

It's through weird steps where he teleports to the ship, said ship has dimensional travel every time, he comes back to the timeline, and this set of events are self-evident across too many runs to bother listing.

Like it's functional summoning, as listed.

Can't he still do something like this? He got killed & apparently atomized, but by unexplored methods he briefly afterwards teleported fine near the place where he died, noticing how he was killed, then Doom killed him in the next issue but that wasn't his end.

See but I believe that run chronologically from Kang's perspective, may come before Avengers: Forever

• Kang acts like Doom hasn't permanently killed him in the past, which he very prominently did in Secret Wars
• In general Kang acts almost like he has never teamed up with Doom before, since he is being relatively amicable towards him.
• Avengers: Forever and Kang Dynasty versions of Kang look notably older than modern Kang does, being in their 60s contrasted to Modern Kang, who looks like in his 30s
• It is REALLY out of character for Kang to ever use Immortality post-Avengers: Forever, a run where he makes the explicit point that said backdoor made him weaker and he will never go back to using it.

Kang already can have these fucky timeline stories, like how the original Kang was freely interacting with Kang Prime, a character 20 years away, so it's not a far-off assumption, especially when it has so much against it.

That would be a byproduct of the other powers used there; Absorption as you pointed out later due to feeding on the future of what he touches, and Time Manip due to accelerating it to dust. Without Corrosion Inducement.

I'll list it Time Manip

 

[DaReaperMan]

Can remain in combat despite being considerably injured

Much stamina, so scans.

 

[The_Impress]

snark

Smh be professional.

I'll just source the issues as proofing since I feel it's too much context and scans to link

 

[DaReaperMan]

That's good too, also I was meming, not being snarky lol

 

[Eficiente]

If you never were defeated you never travelled back in time to stop it, hence it still happened, which isn't the case here. There is a time paradox that is never resolved.

That would be a paradox if Kang was defeated in the past, but here he sees himself defeated in the future from an unknown point in time and goes to stop that. That's like anyone having precog and using it to change their future. Kang's future was changed but that doesn't mean that the timestreams he saw "should have never been" what he saw to change the future, it's valid for those timestreams to not account for time travel.

It's through weird steps where he teleports to the ship, said ship has dimensional travel every time, he comes back to the timeline, and this set of events are self-evident across too many runs to bother listing.

Like it's functional summoning, as listed.

Well, we can list some of this cases for the sake of indexing, it's not self-evident for all readers if they don't know him, some may wonder "Maybe if he's BFR'd too far away he can't summon his stuff?".

See but I believe that run chronologically from Kang's perspective, may come before Avengers: Forever

• Kang acts like Doom hasn't permanently killed him in the past, which he very prominently did in Secret Wars
• In general Kang acts almost like he has never teamed up with Doom before, since he is being relatively amicable towards him.
• Avengers: Forever and Kang Dynasty versions of Kang look notably older than modern Kang does, being in their 60s contrasted to Modern Kang, who looks like in his 30s
• It is REALLY out of character for Kang to ever use Immortality post-Avengers: Forever, a run where he makes the explicit point that said backdoor made him weaker and he will never go back to using it.

Kang already can have these fucky timeline stories, like how the original Kang was freely interacting with Kang Prime, a character 20 years away, so it's not a far-off assumption, especially when it has so much against it.

Ok. Former powers should go at the bottom of the P&A, but in this case maybe he should have them in a sub-tab with the feats pointed out before and how he got killed in Avengers vol 4/(2010) issue 6.

Speaking of sub-tabs and as other info I can contribute to Kang;

• He gave a Cosmic Cube to Star-Lord in Guardians of the Galaxy vol 2/(2008) issue 19, but he calibrated it himself and it pretty featless. It should still be better than the 3-A Thanos had that I'll later prove was incomplete or something on those lines.
  • Claims that there is not a weapon in all of time that he can't get his hands on and has used weapons from "all times" while repeatedly trying to defeat Ultron
• His war against Ultron (Kang time traveling with an army, failing to defeat Ultron, time traveling with a new army to try it again and so on 20 times) resulted in the timestream having a "break" in every direction, which would have eventually destroyed the universe. So Universe level Environmental Destruction with prep time, it kills even Kang and this is something he could come up in a regular fight w/o prep time if he can't win it but can survive it, as he can escape and come back at the start of the fight similar to how he did with Ultron. (To note, I know the feat "sounds" Low 2-C, but the mess in the timeline he caused isn't tierable, it's just range, the real destruction was that of the universe, and since the latter happened due to the former one may mix them)
• This should be way better evidence for Acausality type 1 as he was told that he went to the same point in time over and over to retry something, meaning that he is changing something from his own past, by many times over.

 

[Antvasima]

That would be a paradox if Kang was defeated in the past, but here he sees himself defeated in the future from an unknown point in time and goes to stop that. That's like anyone having precog and using it to change their future. Kang's future was changed but that doesn't mean that the timestreams he saw "should have never been" what he saw to change the future, it's valid for those timestreams to not account for time travel.

I agree with the reasoning here.

His war against Ultron (Kang time traveling with an army, failing to defeat Ultron, time traveling with a new army to try it again and so on 20 times) resulted in the timestream having a "break" in every direction, which would have eventually destroyed the universe. So Universe level Environmental Destruction with prep time, it kills even Kang and this is something he could come up in a regular fight w/o prep time if he can't win it but can survive it, as he can escape and come back at the start of the fight similar to how he did with Ultron. (To note, I know the feat "sounds" Low 2-C, but the mess in the timeline he caused isn't tierable, it's just range, the real destruction was that of the universe, and since the latter happened due to the former one may mix them)

As I recently said in the Valiant revision thread regarding Evil Robot, I am not sure if breaking the universe as a side-effect of time travel is a good enough justification for Low 2-C, but I may be too nitpicky.

 

[The_Impress]

Well, we can list some of this cases for the sake of indexing, it's not self-evident for all readers if they don't know him, some may wonder "Maybe if he's BFR'd too far away he can't summon his stuff?".

It's too long-winded to bother listing, and like, given his range I doubt anyone he fights can BFR him

Ok. Former powers should go at the bottom of the P&A, but in this case maybe he should have them in a sub-tab with the feats pointed out before and how he got killed in Avengers vol 4/(2010) issue 6.

Think this is unnecessary, the way we currently list works just fine.

Speaking of sub-tabs and as other info I can contribute to Kang;

• He gave a Cosmic Cube to Star-Lordin Guardians of the Galaxy vol 2/(2008) issue 19, but he calibrated it himself and it pretty featless. It should still be better than the 3-A Thanos had that I'll later prove was incomplete or something on those lines.

I don't feel comfortable making this assumption at all, Cosmic Cubes can be items that perform very negligible reality warping as well

Claims that there is not a weapon in all of time that he can't get his hands on and has used weapons from "all times" while repeatedly unnecessary to defeat Ultron

I can add this into weapon summoning, but any tiering implications from this is hella sus

• His war against Ultron (Kang time traveling with an army, failing to defeat Ultron, time traveling with a new army to try it again and so on 20 times) resulted in the timestream having a "break" in every direction, which would have eventually destroyed the universe. So Universe level Environmental Destruction with prep time, it kills even Kang and this is something he could come up in a regular fight w/o prep time if he can't win it but can survive it, as he can escape and come back at the start of the fight similar to how he did with Ultron. (To note, I know the feat "sounds" Low 2-C, but the mess in the timeline he caused isn't tierable, it's just range, the real destruction was that of the universe, and since the latter happened due to the former one may mix them)

I feel like this is a verse mechanic rather than Kang's own feat though.

• This should be way better evidence for Acausality type 1 as he was told that he went to the same point in time over and over to retry something, meaning that he is changing something from his own past, by many times over.

K, I'll list that instead

 

[Eficiente]

I agree with the reasoning here.

As I recently said in the Valiant revision thread regarding Evil Robot, I am not sure if breaking the universe as a side-effect of time travel is a good enough justification for Low 2-C, but I may be too nitpicky.

Idk Evil Robot, but there I said 3-A as Environmental Destruction. I take Environmental Destruction as kind of a cheap term, similar to Social Influencing, in the sense that sometimes we list the info on them, sometimes we don't and it's hard to set up standards.

It seems worth adding in this case as Kang can reasonably make it happen by not winning a fight but surviving it, leaving to him retrying it many times. Kang also says that a paradox is "merely another weapon in his arsenal" in another comic, he's not referring to the same event and so it's vague what he means by this, but given what paradoxes are associated with in fiction (destroying himself, destroying the universe, or some other lesser mess) and how Kang is willing to use this as a weapon, it makes all the more sense to list him that other mess in time he did cause before that we know the tier of.

(They might have also referred to the 3-A feat in what Kang said about using a paradox as a weapon, as while he wasn't willing to let that happen, he did threat others to work in his favor over under the pretext that the universe would end, which they later saw was true to keep doing what Kang wanted them to. Or maybe they just had "something among those lines" in mind, even for Marvel this makes sense to me, but I don't see it as necessary for what I propose.)

It should only apply in Marvel with its rules of time travel, as Kang simply did so 20 times over the same place. That's to be noted in the profile but it's not a negative point of whether or not this should be added.

It's too long-winded to bother listing, and like, given his range I doubt anyone he fights can BFR him

Somehow didn't see that Outerversal range. That needs evidence and along it Dimensional Travel as a better placed ability, if it repeats one use of it already in the profile.

Think this is unnecessary, the way we currently list works just fine.

Ok, but it has to be at the bottom after a point like with Thanos, the abilities he does have coming first.

I don't feel comfortable making this assumption at all, Cosmic Cubes can be items that perform very negligible reality warping as well

Then just to note that he calibrated his own Cosmic Cube but that it didn't display the scale of the most powerful Cosmic Cubes shown.

I can add this into weapon summoning, but any tiering implications from this is hella sus

Wasn't implying any tiering based on that, I know it would only be Summoning and intelligence, and that it's just a very versatile, bs feat in which he only did things up to the level that makes sense for him and Ultron.

I feel like this is a verse mechanic rather than Kang's own feat though.

It is both, and at the same time he wouldn't be able to do it outside of Marvel.

I believe that if for example if a character in a verse can do a mundane action many, many times over and it causes the universe to be destroyed or something, and the character knows this, and it can only happen in its verse, then it should be listed in our profiles under the limitation of it only working there.

 

[The_Impress]

Somehow didn't see that Outerversal range. That needs evidence and along it Dimensional Travel as a better placed ability, if it repeats one use of it already in the profile.

I've sourced the issue it comes from, and I guess I'll list Dimensional Travel as well

Ok, but it has to be at the bottom after a point like with Thanos, the abilities he does have coming first.

I think that's arbitrary and breaks the flow of the page

Then just to note that he calibrated his own Cosmic Cube but that it didn't display the scale of the most powerful Cosmic Cubes shown.

K

Wasn't implying any tiering based on that, I know it would only be Summoning and intelligence, and that it's just a very versatile, bs feat in which he only did things up to the level that makes sense for him and Ultron.

K

It is both, and at the same time he wouldn't be able to do it outside of Marvel.

I believe that if for example if a character in a verse can do a mundane action many, many times over and it causes the universe to be destroyed or something, and the character knows this, and it can only happen in its verse, then it should be listed in our profiles under the limitation of it only working there.

I disagree with this assertion, it'll never be relevant in vs. debating and it's Kang exploiting a system (Marvel universe)'s weakness, akin to how Luke blowing up the Death Star by exploiting its weakness, isn't a feat relevantly for him.

 

[Antvasima]

I disagree with this assertion, it'll never be relevant in vs. debating and it's Kang exploiting a system (Marvel universe)'s weakness, akin to how Luke blowing up the Death Star by exploiting its weakness, isn't a feat relevantly for him.

I personally agree with this.

 

[Eficiente]

*Another feat of Time Travel and BFR: Presumably returned to their time from the future an army he had

I've sourced the issue it comes from, and I guess I'll list Dimensional Travel as well

I know, the evidence as scans should be there too as the range is too high.

I think that's arbitrary and breaks the flow of the page

Put a power he doesn't have anymore at the end isn't arbitrary as one would read to know the powers a character does have, they may not care about the ones they don't and so rather than skip it in the middle, they would find it in the end and maybe not read it, or if they read it there they can more easily put aside former powers from the rest.

It should be a matter of structuring and setting up standards for other users to not make a mess later.

I disagree with this assertion, it'll never be relevant in vs. debating and it's Kang exploiting a system (Marvel universe)'s weakness, akin to how Luke blowing up the Death Star by exploiting its weakness, isn't a feat relevantly for him.

I personally agree with this.

Ok. No tier then, but a note should say how he can cause this but it only works on Marvel.

 

[The_Impress]

*Another feat of Time Travel and BFR: Presumably returned to their time from the future an army he had

I know, the evidence as scans should be there too as the range is too high.

Done

Put a power he doesn't have anymore at the end isn't arbitrary as one would read to know the powers a character does have, they may not care about the ones they don't and so rather than skip it in the middle, they would find it in the end and maybe not read it, or if they read it there they can more easily put aside former powers from the rest.

Fine, done.

Ok. No tier then, but a note should say how he can cause this but it only works on Marvel.

Done.

I've added prior changes, although didn't add a few justification suggestions since I think either the current ones fit better, or aren't as speculative. In general I am avoiding redundancy.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Are the rest of you fine with Impress applying this now?

 

[The_Impress]

If I may interject I think it's fine to apply now, all issues that Eficiente had with the file are resolved and only minor additions are suggested, which aren't crucial to the file as a whole.

 

[Confluctor]

Okay. Are the rest of you fine with Impress applying this now?

Yeah seems fine to apply

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. What has been accepted can probably be handled then.

 

[The_Impress]

Kang the Conqueror

Nathaniel Richards, a 31st-century scholar and possible descendant of Reed Richards, becomes fascinated with history and discovers the time travel technology created by Victor von Doom. Richards then travels back in time to ancient Egypt aboard a Sphinx-shaped timeship and becomes the Pharaoh...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Revision applied, this thread can be closed now

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will do so.