Madness Combat Discussion Thread: Redeemer

[Employe]

He R>Fs them and is stated to be unbounded by them in existence. That's more than enough for a +1 dimensional gap, making him 6-D or 1-C

Again, being "unbounded" doesn't scale you anywhere, it is just BDE 1 at best. I mean, it is cool, ignoring that VSBW probably wouldn't accept this Krinkels statement (tho you probably still can argue it via the fact that they are creatures of very fabric of logic, since logic supposedly exists in the place without space-time and etc.)

 

[Comiphorous]

That simply a metaphor on his plot hax,

Prove it's just a metaphor, because right next to The Maker's other shit it makes it look very much less like a metaphor and much more literal. How many times does The Maker and The Machine have to be described as all-powerful gods who control every aspect of the verse's existence like a story for it to not be a metaphor to you?

you can't convince me that a character who is canonically threatened by The Machine "transcends it".

I didn't say that, did I? They always existed on the same plane of existence, The Machine just acted as a tool for The Maker. That's always been the case. You seem to forget that their bullshit includes the 5 Low 1-Cs in the verse they created.

 

[Employe]

Prove it's just a metaphor, because right next to The Maker's other shit it makes it look very much less like a metaphor and much more literal. How many times does The Maker and The Machine have to be described as all-powerful gods who control every aspect of the verse's existence like a story for it to not be a metaphor to you?

When I'm saying metaphor I don't mean that they have no powers whatsoever, I do buy them having plot manipulation and some other stuff, but there is nothing to say that they necessarily transcend anything. "Being strong" doesn't mean "I absolutely transcend everything". Also The Maker literally stated he is not all-powerful and struggles with controlling The Machine which is "paradoxal for such an infinite power', so he is not truly all-powerful. The Machine also wasn't never stated to be all-powerful and is subject of Doc trying to control it

I didn't say that, did I? They always existed on the same plane of existence, The Machine just acted as a tool for The Maker. That's always been the case.

So? My point he doesn't actually transcend The Machine

 

[Employe]

The Machine is empowered by The Madness, which is why the maker is weary and if he's not careful the machine can absorb him

Also yes, this is true. I'm curious could we make a profile for it, possibly no since it doesn't seem like an actual character

 

[Employe]

On a side note, I think the absolute high tiers do have potential to be scaled to Outer (or higher) in the future, but not through R>F and instead via Infinite Improbable (but this depends on how Krinkels is going to depict it in the future)

 

[Comiphorous]

When I'm saying metaphor I don't mean that they have no powers whatsoever, I do buy them having plot manipulation and some other stuff, but there is nothing to say that they necessarily transcend anything.

If only they had a statement saying The Maker existed beyond the madness combat universe and all it's inhabitants... Oh wait there is!

Also The Maker literally stated he is not all-powerful and struggles with controlling The Machine which is "paradoxal for such an infinite power', so he is not truly all-powerful.

Not being all-powerful to an equally powerful entity isn't an anti-feat for Outer lol, especially since both parties in this case are equals.

The Machine also wasn't never stated to be all-powerful and is subject of Doc trying to control it

They only call themself the "Highest power" and more or less the "all-powerful creator"... Krinkels has a statement explaining The Maker doesn't consider Themself one, but they're just underselling themself since The Machine is just a tool they made for the creation of Madness Combat.

 

[Employe]

If only they had a statement saying The Maker existed beyond the madness combat universe... Oh wait there is!

I already said above, but existing "unbounded" isn't equal to transcending something. Sure, you can argue he now has some busted haxes and resistances (like BDE, Acausal Type 5 and others) but this doesn't scale him above. In fact, it isn't even an AP feat on its own

Not being all-powerful to an equally powerful entity isn't an anti-feat for Outer lol, especially since both parties in this case are equals.

It is not, right.

Physically existing on the same plane of reality as 3D characters where you can even interact with them face-to-face is an anti-feat, though, (unless there is evidence that it is his lesser avatar) and the first thing proves that he isn't truly all-powerful anyway, this is what he himself says to us

They only call themself the "Highest power" and more or less the "all-powerful creator"...

Except he didn't and literally refuted second claim
The Highest Power I guess could suggest him upscaling above everone else, but that's it

Krinkels has a statement explaining The Maker doesn't consider Themself one, but they're just underselling himself.

Can you link, please? Not that it will somehow prove that he automatically transcends anything, but I''m interested.

I understand the everyone have a desire to scale their verse to Outer (and higher), but I simply don't see how it works with what we currently know.

I genuinely wish you good luck to try and prove it to mods, but I just fail to understand how he fits our requirements at all

 

[Comiphorous]

I already said above, but existing "unbounded" isn't equal to transcending something. Sure, you can argue he now has some busted haxes and resistances (like BDE, Acausal Type 5 and others) but this doesn't scale him above. In fact, it isn't even an AP feat on its own

Not wanting to use the statement for them transcending their creation but also using it as a statement for all the abilities that come with using the statement for transcending their creation is a choice.

It is not, right.

Physically existing on the same plane of reality as 3D characters where you can even interact with them face-to-face is an anti-feat, though, (unless there is evidence that it is his lesser avatar) and the first thing proves that he isn't truly all-powerful anyway, this is what he himself says to us

You keep making a point to bringing up The Machine to refute the all-powerful statement as if that isn't a stupid comparison to make. You're comparing a human to an ant, and then bringing up another human as proof that other human isn't as powerful as the ants. The Machine is why The Maker sees themself that way. The Machine had a genuine hand in the creation of Nevada so The Maker often says that they aren't entirely the creator.

The Maker's appearance in Nevada can be chalked up to Avatars, just like every other higher dimensional being in the verse who uses avatars to interact with Nevada, including The Machine. Especially since in Nevada The Maker doesn't have the galaxy face thing going on it's clearly not the same body as the one we see as the real Maker.

Except he didn't and literally refuted second claim
The Highest Power I guess could suggest him upscaling above everone else, but that's it

They didn't refute it, they only said some parts of what they said was wrong, which is objectively correct because The Maker later admits that The Machine was a tool that they utilized in the creation of Madness Combat. They didn't refute that they were all-powerful, they refuted that they invented Nevada.

Can you link, please? Not that it will somehow prove that he automatically transcends anything, but I''m interested.

Dumpster diving into the only usable twitch statements!!!

 

[Employe]

Not wanting to use the statement for them transcending their creation but also using it as a statement for all the abilities that come with using the statement for transcending their creation is a choice.

You keep making a point to bringing up The Machine to refute the all-powerful statement as if that isn't a stupid comparison to make. You're comparing a human to an ant, and then bringing up another human as proof that other human isn't as powerful as the ants. The Machine is why The Maker sees themself that way. The Machine is genuine threat to them because they have to stay hidden from them, which puts a taint on that "highest power" title they hold.

Because if you have someone who can threaten to you then you are not truly all-powerful?

Also yeah, I can buy someone being able to manipulate reality without actually transcending it. What's sort of argument is it? Unless you believe that every reality warper in fiction automatically scales to Outer or mandatory transcends their verse.

Btw, it doesn't matter whether other characters are weaker, like ants or anything than him. Him just existing and being able to physically interact with 3D beings is a fat anti-feat, since the whole point of R>F (at least true one) that character is completely UNPERCEIVABLE for lower beings, let alone can have a heart-to-heart talk.

This is equivalent of saying that since humans are stronger than ants, it means they exist on a higher plane of existence

They didn't refute it, they only said some parts of what they said was wrong, which is objectively correct because The Maker later admits that The Machine was a tool that they utilized in the creation of Madness Combat. They didn't refute that they were all-powerful, they refuted that they invented Nevada.

So you are suggesting that he did create the universe only to say he didn't make Nevada? Do you have any proof that his "Not exactly. Yes, but mostly no" was specifically referring to creating Nevada and not an all-powerful part? Why couldn't he address to both especially since he doesn't do any distinction in his statement?

Also they refute this claim again later on by saying that even though they are an infinite power they also paradoxically can't control The Machine without becoming a part of it. Clearly he isn't completely all-powerful.

By they way, here he casually admits that has no bearing over what happens to Nevada

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

You can be a pretty observant guy, Employe, but I don't think you share the same criteria as the typical T1 assessor here. You may missed that when Comiphorous first floated the idea of 1-A Madness a long time ago (before his CRT), some esteemed T1 consultants were cool with it even though Comi ultimately decided to wait until making more comprehensive explanations. My impression is that it'll go smoothly when staff actually check it out, though we might as well cover all the bases first. As for your objections:

• The Maker made The Machine, which created/embodies Nevada and so on. That's why The Maker says "Yes, but mostly no" when asked if he himself created Nevada; it's like if someone asked if you built a car when what you did was make an autonomous robot (that could indeed initially be or eventually become stronger than you without contradiction) that built a car or rebuilt itself into being a car.
• There is no inherent contradiction within there being more than one 1-A or a 1-A being/becoming stronger than the other 1-A in the same tier/layer. The Machine threatening The Maker isn't an anti-feat in itself.
• Nor is having limitations necessarily an issue; being "all-powerful" isn't the main thing so much as being sufficiently fundamental and/or untouchable from lower realms. Though, again, The Maker isn't limited so much as no longer able to control The Machine (and therefore Nevada) much due to its growing autonomy.
• Depending on who you ask, VSBW doesn't seem to have any issues with a weaker character merely dimly beholding and conversing (as opposed to combating or otherwise more meaningfully interacting) with a 1-A even in R>F frames when the latter wills it, and that's putting aside how The Maker blatantly uses lower avatars and disguises.

In my opinion, the closest thing to an anti-feat for 1-A in Madness may be Dissonance being described as disruptions of The Machine and 3D characters using it. But we can surmise (especially with that statement of it originating from The Other Place that seems to be far beneath The Machine's fullness) that Dissonance isn't equivalent to The Machine in potency/authority, just as how plenty of verses with T0s or other "all-embodiments" have far-weaker characters who can warp reality on local levels as opposed to messing with the verse-embodiments itself on a fundamental level. And 1-A smurfing in 3D characters -- which isn't necessarily what's happening here; I think 5D Dissonance is plausible but am steel-manning possible thorny angles -- is a thing, anyway, Warhammer's Warp users and so on.

I'll give you and Comi time to determine if all's sure and well-articulated on your Conceptual Manipulation CRT before asking anyone else to check it out. This is pretty much just my weekly-or-so drop-by here; have a good one and I'll see ya around later if not too much comes up on my end.

 

[CitRusReality64]

On a side note, I think the absolute high tiers do have potential to be scaled to Outer (or higher) in the future, but not through R>F and instead via Infinite Improbable (but this depends on how Krinkels is going to depict it in the future)

I mean, it's basically EMR. so it'd be High 1-A+, although it's probably not gonna be accepted to due to coming from twitch statements
that said, I don't think anyone would scale to the full Improbable Realm though.

 

[CitRusReality64]

Again, being "unbounded" doesn't scale you anywhere, it is just BDE 1 at best. I mean, it is cool, ignoring that VSBW probably wouldn't accept this Krinkels statement (tho you probably still can argue it via the fact that they are creatures of very fabric of logic, since logic supposedly exists in the place without space-time and etc.)

I'm talking about the scan from game that says The Maker is unbounded by The Machine, not the Discord scan if you're talking about that one. Which I think is likely faked at this point.

 

[Employe]

I'm talking about the scan from game that says The Maker is unbounded by The Machine, not the Discord scan if you're talking about that one.

Which again scales nowhere

Which I think is likely faked at this point.

It actually isn't. Y'all can literally just freely go see this Krinkels' answer on Cheshyre's discord server

 

[CitRusReality64]

Which again scales nowhere


It actually isn't. Y'all can literally just freely go see this Krinkels' answer on Cheshyre's discord server

I mean the non-dimensional scan, unless you mean the Employers being abstract concepts without a mathematical form...which for BDE Type 1 makes no sense because they are transcendent beings. BDE Type 2 works for that statement

 

[Employe]

I mean the non-dimensional scan, unless you mean the Employers being abstract concepts without a mathematical form...which for BDE Type 1 makes no sense because they are transcendent beings. BDE Type 2 works for that statement

Yes, this exact scan about them not being strictly bounded to universe it is what Krinkels stated in Cheshyre's discord

 

[Employe]

When doing Subject's page, I realized that it will be perfect to remade Soldat's page as well (preferably also Engineer's and Agents, but mainly for Soldats).

Also, since the description of Awareness/Senses explicitly mentions perceiving weaknesses of your enemies and it directly corresponds to dealing greater damage to tac bar, we can grasp how exactly functions characters' ability to bypass tac bars