Lupin III: Statistic Update

[Detective_Blizzard]

Howdy yall, while the more cognitive stuff in the verse is looked over we are going to be focusing on the physical ballparks of the verse. Main goal with this one is simply to showcase the verse's current feats and some supporting evidence for higher end stuff. The new standards are for feats already accepted and calculations already accepted. Since this is mostly already accepted stuff, this CRT is mainly just to showcase examples to help understand where these changes are coming from.


Verse Standard

For starters, we have the standard stats of the verse to go over. Just by looking at the profiles most would think "Wow, the verse is pretty small all things considered" which is a very inaccurate description that was created largely due to how inconsistent the verse is and how many of it's feats were just ignored for countless reasons. However, now that the verse is composited and allows these feats back into the market we can now properly utilize them turning what was once 'Inconsistent' into 'Consistently high-end'.

For starters, the whole idea that the characters are weak because of the use of conventional weaponry or realism is just untrue. As an example I'll use something that was mentioned as a example of the verse staying realistic, Pycal the Magician. In his original episode he tanks this rocket which was supposed to be a guaranteed kill, however despite running away from him due to his invulnerability Lupin and Jigen just casually survive a similar, if not much larger explosion without any major or long lasting injury with them beating Pycal the next day. This is literally the second episode ever in the series, and this type of thing consistently happens where characters act as though something is lethal however the actual feats for it make it massively unimpressive. In fact the series was downgraded from 8-C because of that very logic since one of the few calculations we had prior to this had this same narrative structure of "Character says this explosive will kill people, casually survives it".

As for the new verse standard, it will be the currently accepted feat and calculation for 7-C. Explosions in the verse basically never kill in the franchise with even the most random civilians with no notable traits are capable of surviving lower yielding explosives with literally no damage done to him at all (For the record, this is also commonly seen as the more 'low end and realistic' side of the verse if you believe it). The truth of the matter is that the verse is filled with high end feats and traits if you know where to look. From powerful magic capable of generating natural disasters, various accounts of equipment capable of atomizing entire islands, obliterating massive mountain ranges, creating sound waves capable of effecting all of Italy, or literally just an island made up of gunpowder (only example which doesn't include cast members withstanding it lol), anyone can see that the verse has far higher heights than what the current profiles would ever suggest with the 7-C acting as a decent means for durability and AP on a physical level all around. All weaponry meanwhile will be placed on 6-C+ as while explosives are highly inconsistent at killing people, guns and various other lethal weapons have far easier times doing so as they are always considered one shots in the verse. Vastly superior weapons like the Zenigata Robo will be High 6-C, likely far higher as the feat for the weapons are already so close to High 6-C and at the Robo levels it would be massively superior than them. Similar logic should apply to any weaponry which has noticeably more power than Lupin's gun such as Jigen and Yael's anti-tank riles which should be "At least High 6-C" as those things can just ragdoll people through reinforced glass as opposed to the normal guns which would leave far less force.

God Tier Standard

This is simple and clean, the Zantetsuken is a weapon which only scales to itself with it's AP and Durability scaling to whatever it's strongest showcase is. Nothing except for Hawk has any arguments for not being an outlier due to how consistent it is, so those two are now placed inside the now accepted 5-A range as these powers are considered unstoppable to the rest of the verse and are either defeated by PIS, CIS, trickery, or by facing a Zantetsuken equivalent.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

For starters, the whole idea that the characters are weak because of the use of conventional weaponry or realism is just untrue. As an example I'll use something that was mentioned as a example of the verse staying realistic, Pycal the Magician. In his original episode he tanks this rocket which was supposed to be a guaranteed kill, however despite running away from him due to his invulnerability Lupin and Jigen just casually survive a similar, if not much larger explosion without any major or long lasting injury with them beating Pycal the next day. This is literally the second episode ever in the series, and this type of thing consistently happens where characters act as though something is lethal however the actual feats for it make it massively unimpressive. In fact the series was downgraded from 8-C because of that very logic since one of the few calculations we had prior to this had this same narrative structure of "Character says this explosive will kill people, casually survives it".

I'm gonna disagree with the trend of logic at work here. The missile is something they explicitly recognize as being something beyond their ability to survive- when the magician does, they agree it's pointless to fight back. They straight up flee from the guy, and the eventual explosion they survive is not on-screen; given it's implicitly their car exploding, it seems plausible they escaped the dead epicenter by a good amount off-screen, given there's a generous timespan between that and the car catching fire.

I expect consistency, this would seem to trend against the premise of the thread.

As for the new verse standard, it will be the currently accepted feat and calculation for 7-C. Explosions in the verse basically never kill in the franchise with even the most random civilians with no notable traits are capable of surviving lower yielding explosives with literally no damage done to him at all (For the record, this is also commonly seen as the more 'low end and realistic' side of the verse if you believe it).

Even if something is canon, there are still priorities in place. An arcade game machine graphics shouldn't be prioritized over the core media franchise explicitly saying "hey man we can't beat something that survives this rocket, it's not possible". Regarding the lesser explosive feat, I really doubt this is a supporting feat to 7-C (that bomb hardly looked nuclear), but I am curious to know if the guy who actually detonated the explosion survived, or just the guy on the other side of the door?

The truth of the matter is that the verse is filled with high end feats and traits if you know where to look. From powerful magic capable of generating natural disasters, various accounts of equipment capable of atomizing entire islands, obliterating massive mountain ranges, creating sound waves capable of effecting all of Italy, or literally just an island made up of gunpowder (only example which doesn't include cast members withstanding it lol), anyone can see that the verse has far higher heights than what the current profiles would ever suggest with the 7-C acting as a decent means for durability and AP on a physical level all around. All weaponry meanwhile will be placed on 6-C+ as while explosives are highly inconsistent at killing people, guns and various other lethal weapons have far easier times doing so as they are always considered one shots in the verse. Vastly superior weapons like the Zenigata Robo will be High 6-C, likely far higher as the feat for the weapons are already so close to High 6-C and at the Robo levels it would be massively superior than them. Similar logic should apply to any weaponry which has noticeably more power than Lupin's gun such as Jigen and Yael's anti-tank riles which should be "At least High 6-C" as those things can just ragdoll people through reinforced glass as opposed to the normal guns which would leave far less force.

Magic rituals are frequently not related to the physical capabilities of a character, nor can they often make use of environmental destruction in focused attacks. Regarding these... a few of these are not presented fairly. "atomizing entire islands" visibly takes a really long time to even atomize a helicopter and the guy inside, and the broader effects of it aren't atomizing at all, shit is just being ripped up. The obliteration of a mountain range has them inside a vehicle, they didn't tank anything (even ambiguously- it's ambiguous the vehicle survived, but they objectively weren't hit at all). The sound wave thing is so obviously just a matter of range and not AP- it doesn't destroy or kill anybody, and in fact it affects the cast in the exact same way as everyone else. The gunpowder island thing has no obvious correlation to AP or durability, nobody tanks anything in the clip provided.

As for the first feat. He shot the guy. The magic stopped. Lupin's gun did not disperse the storm. This is Environmental Destruction (and only 8-A environmental destruction at that, and only for the magic dude).

God Tier Standard

This is simple and clean, the Zantetsuken is a weapon which only scales to itself with it's AP and Durability scaling to whatever it's strongest showcase is. Nothing except for Hawk has any arguments for not being an outlier due to how consistent it is, so those two are now placed inside the now accepted 5-A range as these powers are considered unstoppable to the rest of the verse and are either defeated by PIS, CIS, trickery, or by facing a Zantetsuken equivalent.

As this is a god tier weapon, I'm more on the fence about this. There's two things to consider. First is that he did legitimately just do that. The second is that the moon then falls five feet into the ocean to create a small splash. This moon is about twenty meters in diameter, then.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

I'm gonna disagree with the trend of logic at work here. The missile is something they explicitly recognize as being something beyond their ability to survive- when the magician does, they agree it's pointless to fight back. They straight up flee from the guy, and the eventual explosion they survive is not on-screen; given it's implicitly their car exploding, it seems plausible they escaped the dead epicenter by a good amount off-screen, given there's a generous timespan between that and the car catching fire.

Firstly, incorrect on a few accounts. In fact the same logic was used for another one of the few calculations we had which had higher results for the characters. However, this is legit a contradiction and a showcasing at how often these things contradict each other as they didn't escape the dead epicenter at all. This is just a thing that happens in the verse constantly.

I expect consistency, this would seem to trend against the premise of the thread.

The premise of the thread is the fact that the entire scaling of the current profiles are largely based on inconsistency, as they've mostly been made by ignoring most of the other feats of the verse and focusing primarily on lower end yields which leave only minor damages for the characters in most scenarios.

Even if something is canon, there are still priorities in place. An arcade game machine graphics shouldn't be prioritized over the core media franchise explicitly saying "hey man we can't beat something that survives this rocket, it's not possible". Regarding the lesser explosive feat, I really doubt this is a supporting feat to 7-C (that bomb hardly looked nuclear), but I am curious to know if the guy who actually detonated the explosion survived, or just the guy on the other side of the door?

Same primary material contradicts itself in the literal next scene (yes, those scenes were back to back). Also I made no mentions of things being nuclear, the supporting example was there to showcase that the current rating for the verse is a gross lowball as characters are just casually surviving these things even when the verse is at it's narrative weakest with the most 'realism'. The same core media franchise has far higher things with a lot of those lower yielding examples coming from the 1970s as opposed to the modern 2010-2020s where the higher feats are from. As for the explosion question, both of them survived as I showed here with neither of them showcasing any form of damage

Magic rituals are frequently not related to the physical capabilities of a character, nor can they often make use of environmental destruction in focused attacks.

It's not necessarily a magic ritual, as the character can just kinda control the weather casually. Additionally same character can use his magic for focused attacks and if I'm being frank has some more absurdist things in there in terms of conventional and unconventional (reality warping pocket dimension). The 7-C is already heavily downward from these feats, not scaling directly to them.

"atomizing entire islands" visibly takes a really long time to even atomize a helicopter and the guy inside, and the broader effects of it aren't atomizing at all, shit is just being ripped up.

There was a calculation for it that was in the mountain levels regardless, and that was just for Lupin being able to withstand it (granted, that was from it being a black hole). Even without all of that, the physicals are still not trying to say that he is island level, but town level which is already taking your counterpoints into mind. Additionally, that damage wasn't caused by the weapon being directly pointed at the island as that was simply the after effects of the surrounding areas not in it's path

The obliteration of a mountain range has them inside a vehicle, they didn't tank anything (even ambiguously- it's ambiguous the vehicle survived, but they objectively weren't hit at all).

The vehicle was a normal helicopter, the vehicle did survive it, and the actual explosion and radius was on a underground base which they were presumed still inside when the weapon was fired. In order to say they didn't get hit by that, you'd need to argue that they flew the helicopter outside the radius and then immediately flew back into the danger zone, through an active tornado, only for them to land on the other side of the crater. And once again, the actual preposed physical stats for the characters is still massively below any value this explosion would create.

Edit: If you want to argue the helicopter tanking the entire force of the attack for the main cast, you'd need to agree to the verse being buffed because with current standards that wouldn't make any sense

The sound wave thing is so obviously just a matter of range and not AP- it doesn't destroy or kill anybody, and in fact it affects the cast in the exact same way as everyone else.

Correct, that was more-so to showcase the more consistent manner of scale of the verse as the higher end stuff in both hax and destruction tends to be effecting entire nations. Also, it doesn't actually effect the cast the same as everyone else ironically enough. There are signs of struggle with Nyx specifically showcasing a resistance to it but there is so much context that it would derail everything else.

The gunpowder island thing has no obvious correlation to AP or durability, nobody tanks anything in the clip provided.

Also correct, that was more-so there for a joke, similar sense of scale, and a personal way to honor the original late voice actor of Zenigata as that was the last piece of animation he voiced on. If you want something a bit more solid then there's Oda Nobunaga who is a robot who is physically maintaining a large pocket dimension (While there's no full size to use, various angles of the scenes showcase that it's a decently large ninja complex with various buildings in the distance, which even at the lowest possible ends decimate any current scaling on the verse)

Alternatively there's this transmutation feat but with what I've seen on those (Mainly just Frieren lol) that 100% leads to a far higher value than anything else lol.

As for the first feat. He shot the guy. The magic stopped. Lupin's gun did not disperse the storm. This is Environmental Destruction (and only 8-A environmental destruction at that, and only for the magic dude).

Also incorrect, however I can't exactly blame you for thinking that as you aren't the first to point out how it looks like that lol. He did not shoot the guy but instead the actual sky, the giant floating head is just an illusion he uses to taunt people, the real guy is just a 3'5" goblin man. The only things that happen in the feat is Lupin withstanding the incoming disaster and him dispersing it, the only factors Mamo plays into it is creating and controlling the storm in attempts to make Lupin give up/die (he's a character who doesn't like to kill, and prefers to scare his enemies into submission).

As this is a god tier weapon, I'm more on the fence about this. There's two things to consider. First is that he did legitimately just do that. The second is that the moon then falls five feet into the ocean to create a small splash. This moon is about twenty meters in diameter, then.

He did actually do it, and as for the moon size that's mainly just a stylistic thing if we want to say it's smaller. The verse can be pretty inconsistent when it comes to the size of things and just keeps it "vaguely big" (For example, the robot here is meant should realistically be far too large for the human next to it) however the moon itself is meant to be our real world moon and is typically treated as such. Also the scene doesn't create a small splash as it's simply just a water sound effect, if you look closely you can see that on all accounts the camera is still underwater and everything is flooded.

Plus there is a statement feat which depicts him as being capable of slicing the moon which unironically makes this more consistent than his other high-end feats as they typically only have one example of a given moment except this one has two. (Obviously due to this is just a character statement it's not the one being used alongside the fact that the moon is too small and the character never actually doing it themselves in the movie)

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Oh yeah, I guess for a main TV feat that actually happened this decade this feat comes to mind. There's nothing suggesting that he dodged it (with him even being shown to fail to do so comedically) though I have no clue what results would come from that impact though. Additionally it's during a montage of Lupin repeatedly failing and suffering what can only be described as cosmic torture, had he succeeded in escaping events would've played differently there.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Firstly, incorrect on a few accounts. In fact the same logic was used for another one of the few calculations we had which had higher results for the characters. However, this is legit a contradiction and a showcasing at how often these things contradict each other as they didn't escape the dead epicenter at all. This is just a thing that happens in the verse constantly.

I don't see this as incorrect. That it is a contradiction is the point. The extended clip helps, but even a meter of distance from the epicenter (which is approximately what it looks like) divides the result significantly. Without a calculation, I would still see this being viably 8-C.

Same primary material contradicts itself in the literal next scene (yes, those scenes were back to back). Also I made no mentions of things being nuclear, the supporting example was there to showcase that the current rating for the verse is a gross lowball as characters are just casually surviving these things even when the verse is at it's narrative weakest with the most 'realism'. The same core media franchise has far higher things with a lot of those lower yielding examples coming from the 1970s as opposed to the modern 2010-2020s where the higher feats are from. As for the explosion question, both of them survived as I showed here with neither of them showcasing any form of damage

My mention of the word "nuclear" is in reference to the alleged 7-C potency of the feat, a potency on par with a nuclear bomb. You're asserting that it is this strength. The second scene shown looks more like a flashback? They're speaking in past tense in regards to it.

It's not necessarily a magic ritual, as the character can just kinda control the weather casually. Additionally same character can use his magic for focused attacks and if I'm being frank has some more absurdist things in there in terms of conventional and unconventional (reality warping pocket dimension). The 7-C is already heavily downward from these feats, not scaling directly to them.

I think mentioning magic was a mistake, it drew attention away from the crux of the issue, which is that situations like this are frequently environmental destruction. That said, if he is magic as the basis of the character, I don't understand the focus being put on the source rather than the effect? I'm getting confused as to the point of this facet of discussion.

Regardless. The other feats presented don't seem to be 7-C? You allege these are all above that tier, I don't understand how you came to that conclusion.

There was a calculation for it that was in the mountain levels regardless, and that was just for Lupin being able to withstand it (granted, that was from it being a black hole). Even without all of that, the physicals are still not trying to say that he is island level, but town level which is already taking your counterpoints into mind. Additionally, that damage wasn't caused by the weapon being directly pointed at the island as that was simply the after effects of the surrounding areas not in it's path

Could you link that calc? I don't see how, given the timeframe and the limited scope of the feat, it can possibly be Mountain level. Also, I suppose I should have asked previously, can I see Lupin surviving it? He seems distinctly affected by it, at least a little bit, in the provided video- he was being atomized, just at the snail's pace the item provided. So how did he survive?

The vehicle was a normal helicopter, the vehicle did survive it, and the actual explosion and radius was on a underground base which they were presumed still inside when the weapon was fired. In order to say they didn't get hit by that, you'd need to argue that they flew the helicopter outside the radius and then immediately flew back into the danger zone, through an active tornado, only for them to land on the other side of the crater. And once again, the actual preposed physical stats for the characters is still massively below any value this explosion would create.

Edit: If you want to argue the helicopter tanking the entire force of the attack for the main cast, you'd need to agree to the verse being buffed because with current standards that wouldn't make any sense

Okay, but they didn't survive it. And no, I don't need to argue that. I argue they were inside something. To offer a comparable case, this is equivalent to giving Indiana Jones 7-B durability for surviving a nuclear explosion by being within a fridge- a perhaps equally nonsensical feat, but still, Indiana Jones was not within the radius of this blast, because he was surrounded by cover.

I don't need to agree to that, as far as I can tell? Like. Outside the fact that we get a terrible view as to what the helicopter actually endured (barring the video showing something more concrete, but I imagine you would have presented that in the first place if that existed?), why would this constitute an upgrade to the cast.

Also correct, that was more-so there for a joke, similar sense of scale, and a personal way to honor the original late voice actor of Zenigata as that was the last piece of animation he voiced on. If you want something a bit more solid then there's Oda Nobunaga who is a robot who is physically maintaining a large pocket dimension (While there's no full size to use, various angles of the scenes showcase that it's a decently large ninja complex with various buildings in the distance, which even at the lowest possible ends decimate any current scaling on the verse)

Alternatively there's this transmutation feat but with what I've seen on those (Mainly just Frieren lol) that 100% leads to a far higher value than anything else lol.

Without further context (which, admittedly, might be there, the game is in Japanese, which I cannot read), this falls back in the territory of things we would often just consider Environmental Destruction. Even at that scale, it seems plausible we'd just get 8-B for that, judging purely from a sight-read.

Since when do we use transmutation (hax) as AP?

Also incorrect, however I can't exactly blame you for thinking that as you aren't the first to point out how it looks like that lol. He did not shoot the guy but instead the actual sky, the giant floating head is just an illusion he uses to taunt people, the real guy is just a 3'5" goblin man. The only things that happen in the feat is Lupin withstanding the incoming disaster and him dispersing it, the only factors Mamo plays into it is creating and controlling the storm in attempts to make Lupin give up/die (he's a character who doesn't like to kill, and prefers to scare his enemies into submission).

I dunno if I can agree with this interpretation. The clip provided shows him floating in the sky. I'm not saying he isn't projecting a larger illusion of himself, that tracks- but the assumptions here are either "he shot the dude floating, causing the storm to stop for having ceased its power source", or "he shot the sky and the clouds all dispersed instantly, with no rebuke from the guy generating them". I think Lupin just shot that dude.

He did actually do it, and as for the moon size that's mainly just a stylistic thing if we want to say it's smaller. The verse can be pretty inconsistent when it comes to the size of things and just keeps it "vaguely big" (For example, the robot here is meant should realistically be far too large for the human next to it) however the moon itself is meant to be our real world moon and is typically treated as such. Also the scene doesn't create a small splash as it's simply just a water sound effect, if you look closely you can see that on all accounts the camera is still underwater and everything is flooded.

Plus there is a statement feat which depicts him as being capable of slicing the moon which unironically makes this more consistent than his other high-end feats as they typically only have one example of a given moment except this one has two. (Obviously due to this is just a character statement it's not the one being used alongside the fact that the moon is too small and the character never actually doing it themselves in the movie)

By the same measure we could just call all of this a stylistic thing. The moon is visibly extremely small, so the feat isn't 5-A. Pretty much this. The robot size isn't contradicted in that scene. The splash is small in the context of a moon crashing into planet Earth.

That statement, again, features a catastrophically small moon. It's larger than the one in the arcade machine, though. It may even yield greater than 8-C, although I'm not sure how you'd get the size of it- we can only judge it apparently. As you say, it's dicey to use it, but I think it's about as dicey to use arcade machine things that, per your own stance, use "stylistic" choices to alter the context of the feats.

I can be convinced of a couple things in this thread where loose ends remain and further evidence may sate me, but in general I find the Tier 6/5 feat entirely unacceptable. Tier 7 may still be salvageable, if there's any feats left out then I encourage you to go get them.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

I don't see this as incorrect. That it is a contradiction is the point. The extended clip helps, but even a meter of distance from the epicenter (which is approximately what it looks like) divides the result significantly. Without a calculation, I would still see this being viably 8-C.

Fair on that I suppose, I can't prove math stuff as it's not my forte (though that's still higher than the current standards)

My mention of the word "nuclear" is in reference to the alleged 7-C potency of the feat, a potency on par with a nuclear bomb. You're asserting that it is this strength. The second scene shown looks more like a flashback? They're speaking in past tense in regards to it.

Oh, I see. The math on that is correct, based on what I've been told, which would put it on such a level. The second scene either a flashback or 'current events', basically its an end of movie reveal that the guy had survived the explosion and is going to look after his kid. The idea of the characters surviving nuclear attacks however isn't completely unfounded as Mystery of Mamo has Lupin and Zenigata be on an island that's being constantly bombarded by nuclear missiles from every nation in the world (long story) however that example lasts far too short for them to actual showcase any feat. Only thing there is "they somehow survived getting off the island on foot" which is supported in a Part 5 clip which shows the iconic scene reanimated.

I think mentioning magic was a mistake, it drew attention away from the crux of the issue, which is that situations like this are frequently environmental destruction. That said, if he is magic as the basis of the character, I don't understand the focus being put on the source rather than the effect? I'm getting confused as to the point of this facet of discussion.

Regardless. The other feats presented don't seem to be 7-C? You allege these are all above that tier, I don't understand how you came to that conclusion.

The lightning attack causes the weather in the background to rapidly move, the fire attacks are able to burst holes into the clouds, and the reality warping pocket dimension has the Roman Colosseum in it alongside countless other historic pieces of arts/hallmarks. I would assume feats of these caliber would yield similar results.

Could you link that calc? I don't see how, given the timeframe and the limited scope of the feat, it can possibly be Mountain level. Also, I suppose I should have asked previously, can I see Lupin surviving it? He seems distinctly affected by it, at least a little bit, in the provided video- he was being atomized, just at the snail's pace the item provided. So how did he survive?

Here's the feat, it was denied due to not showcasing enough similarities to black holes (with the ones that could be argued attempts to do so not being good enough). Apparently the pixel scaling is off for it so the results would be lower but the ballpark idea would largely be the same as the calculation is just the sheer force Lupin is barley withstanding as opposed to the actual thing. As for surviving the thing, here ya go, mainly didn't include it because imgur has a strict 1 minute cap and I didn't see much benefit to making one unless specifically asked (Characters don't resurrect in this franchise for the most part, with none of the main cast having a true death except Zenigata and that was just a very brief heart stop). As for how he survived, pure physicals. The only implication of him having assistance is a simple parachute to help him land, however him holding onto the damn thing and somewhat withstanding the atomization is all him. As for a timeframe idea, he presumably held onto the thing for about 30 seconds as the machine doesn't stop until then (had he let go mid-way the destruction would've been far more erratic).

Okay, but they didn't survive it. And no, I don't need to argue that. I argue they were inside something. To offer a comparable case, this is equivalent to giving Indiana Jones 7-B durability for surviving a nuclear explosion by being within a fridge- a perhaps equally nonsensical feat, but still, Indiana Jones was not within the radius of this blast, because he was surrounded by cover.

I don't need to agree to that, as far as I can tell? Like. Outside the fact that we get a terrible view as to what the helicopter actually endured (barring the video showing something more concrete, but I imagine you would have presented that in the first place if that existed?), why would this constitute an upgrade to the cast.

For the first part, fair I suppose

For the second part, it would be evidence for the equipment being improved as it would be an example of these things having a far higher rating than normal. It is a terrible shot and it is the best that I have, the only additional context is that it's also meant to be a black hole which just muddies it up in general. Hence why I have made no attempts to calculate it and just went for pure visual effect as any result would look ridiculous even if I could somehow have it make sense. As even without any of the added context, it supports the idea that the people making this stuff think it's possible these characters can just survive massive explosions consistently.

Without further context (which, admittedly, might be there, the game is in Japanese, which I cannot read), this falls back in the territory of things we would often just consider Environmental Destruction. Even at that scale, it seems plausible we'd just get 8-B for that, judging purely from a sight-read.

I could believe 8-B for that specific feat however that'd be supporting evidence that the verse has much higher standards than what's currently accepted and would turn the conversation from "A bunch of 9-A to 7-C" to "8-B/A to 7-C" which is a lot more reasonable. As for context, there definitely is lol as the that's part of a much bigger story mode. Basically it's a robot of Oda Nobunaga built to protect his treasure, which is so vast it's able to build an building of gold large enough to rival Arlong Park, which is contained inside of a pocket dimension that is maintained by it which can only be accessed by "Pandora's Egg" (Forgot if that's the actual name, I just remember the Pandora part as it brings death and ruin + it's a literal egg). From my knowledge that'd be actual power and not environmental damage as a character actively keeping a pocket dimension up would be a sign of their own power. Couldn't find any evidence that Oda Nobunaga had any exterior power sources for him to siphon energy on (some evidence for him giving energy away though, as his minions are also destroyed when he is indicating they are tied to him as a power source)

Since when do we use transmutation (hax) as AP?

Might have tricked myself on a few things for that, apologies. Been a hot minute since I've looked at some things and misremembered some feats (This Lupin stuff is frying my brain I swear!)

I dunno if I can agree with this interpretation. The clip provided shows him floating in the sky. I'm not saying he isn't projecting a larger illusion of himself, that tracks- but the assumptions here are either "he shot the dude floating, causing the storm to stop for having ceased its power source", or "he shot the sky and the clouds all dispersed instantly, with no rebuke from the guy generating them". I think Lupin just shot that dude.

Debatable on his floating in the sky, as that is not 1 for 1 (the scenes aren't back to back, it's just an example of him amping up the weather stuff) and it could just be a perspective thing as we never actually see his feet there and he spends a good portion of the game on high buildings anyway. But I have an additional counter point towards the idea he actually shot Mamo, and the machine itself. Whenever Mamo takes damage or dies (which happens a lot as he doesn't care about it and have a lot of backups) the machine ALWAYS plays the same animation where a bullet hole shows up with the eyes on the top turning Exotropia. Means of death can differ however that is a constant thing due to the machine and Mamo being mentally linked (this dude is a very weird amalgamation of high-end technology, magic, psychic, among many other traits). Since the machine doesn't do that there should be no reason to believe a Mamo clone died there. (You can kinda see it in the original cloud feat as one of the hands is still active, though if you are pressed on that I should be able to find an example showing the machine full view. It's just annoying since I have to go through a bunch of videos to find a singular example that could be anywhere or nowhere)

Also, if he shot the guy, wouldn't floating we'd see his body in the sky as he's dying?

By the same measure we could just call all of this a stylistic thing. The moon is visibly extremely small, so the feat isn't 5-A. Pretty much this. The robot size isn't contradicted in that scene. The splash is small in the context of a moon crashing into planet Earth.

As for the robot size, it definitely is contradicted as even with that game specifically the head is like 1.5 stories high (the background are buildings, it's flying down a street at high speeds). As for the moon splash, I have no context for how it's meant to look. The full splash isn't even seen as while the initial impact is low it's immediately followed by a 2nd bigger one that covers the entire screen which has no visible end. The verse is very hard to gauge at times since it sometimes just ignores physics for things while other times choosing to just incorporate real world quantum physics to other things (still have a migraine on that shit). What would I need to find to support it, as in most examples the verse is meant to be the exact same as our own with the main differences being either advanced technology or mythologies actually existing. Things like the cosmos are largely untouched from real world standards with the only exception I can think of being 2 examples which either imply or outright state that alien life exist somewhere.

Like would having comparing shots between the earth, moon, and the sun be considered viable? This verse is so many ways into unorthodox that I wouldn't be surprised at this point if Mamo's gigantic brain which tanked a nuke is viable evidence for the moon being the moon. (Though looking at it, wouldn't be surprised if that shit inflated the numbers higher). I just went with the normal moon's size because it's the simplest, most straightforward, and gives the most general idea possible since there is no way the series has a consistent size reference for celestial bodies. This is just a thing that happens a lot with the franchise (I know I say that a good amount but at this point I'm just so used to it's nonsense), every time a giant thing appears it can alter in size to comedic amounts.

That statement, again, features a catastrophically small moon. It's larger than the one in the arcade machine, though. It may even yield greater than 8-C, although I'm not sure how you'd get the size of it- we can only judge it apparently. As you say, it's dicey to use it, but I think it's about as dicey to use arcade machine things that, per your own stance, use "stylistic" choices to alter the context of the feats.

No, I don't believe it's fair to call them equal in terms of usability. The Arcade Machine one doesn't have the moon drop right next to the character, preventing any real sense of distorted size to the casual eye, the arcade version causes massive environmental damage compared to the statement one which just plops on the ground with a far lighter splash, and the arcade one in general is depicted as grander than the statement version.

Actually, wait a minute. Where did you get 5 feet from? If it's for how long it took the moon to fall, then that's already accounted for in the feat as it's literally just the amount of force needed to push the moon at such high speeds. I was referring to the splash itself since I'd assume realistically there'd be a bunch of problems with the moon falling that fast but the series can often go on some Looney Toones logic at times and I can't exactly blame some random animator for not going 100% accurate for the moon falling down from orbit on what is at most a 15 second clip. I'm seeing characters swimming in space in their suits, defying the laws of gravity, and ignoring various accounts of physics, I'm not expecting many realistic events to occur at this point as toon force just exists in the verse and sometimes I just have to look at something and say "Yeah, that happened"

If it helps for the idea that the sword could be 5-A, the metal the Zantetsuken is made up of is said to have turned the tide of WW2 resulting in the win we have today. (Source, First Contact movie) While that sounds unimpressive on it's own, literally every single example of black hole weaponry in the franchise has Nazi fingerprints on em. (Source, The First movie + The Last Job movie) Which definitely paints an interesting picture of how the second world war was being played and how high the scale both sides were willing to go to win lol.

I can be convinced of a couple things in this thread where loose ends remain and further evidence may sate me, but in general I find the Tier 6/5 feat entirely unacceptable. Tier 7 may still be salvageable, if there's any feats left out then I encourage you to go get them.

There is a larger issue at play however. If only tier 7 is accepted or even just your proposed Tier 8 stuff, the verse is left with a large chunk of completely unquantifiable equipment which has no ratings to them. Every single weapon is a one-shot leading to higher results than normal weapons, the stronger stuff scales far higher than on account of simply being stronger weaponry, the Robots scale even higher than that as they are basically super-weapons, then you have the Zantetsuken which is just above everything else to a ungodly degree that putting it on a similar scale to the other stuff just doesn't make any amount of sense. That thing is stated countless times to be capable of cutting anything in nature or made by man, so much so that the literal catchphrase of the character is calling everything he sliced worthless. The only thing considered worthy to that sword are Time Crystals, which is some real-life quantum physics bs that are 4D structures that repeat in space alongside time.