Lupin III: Composite Update

[Detective_Blizzard]

Howdy folks, and welcome back to "Blizzard yells into a void"! On today's episode I establish the standard that's been used for this franchise's CRTs, why it should be classified officially as a composite, while also providing a general history lesson on the franchise as a whole. If you want to skip all the history jargon then there's a TLDR and bullet points at the bottom which get my main points across, with the most relevant sections being the sections involving Part 5 and Green vs Red since those are the most continuity dense parts of an otherwise highly episodic franchise. And to those who want to learn a bit about the franchise..... well strap in because things are going to be surprising to many not in the know.


First on up, what is the actual history of the franchise.

Manga History: Lupin III was a manga created by an artist who went by the name Monkey Punch back in 1967. From there he continued writing manga until 1981 with the conclusion of New Lupin III, the sequel story with a short return in 1984 with Sexy Lupin III with only 5 chapters. The franchise would get more manga later on however these releases do not include the original author at all and instead follow.....

TV History: From there an eventual pilot film would be created which would turn into the Part 1 series spanning 1971 to 1972. While these took inspiration from the manga, they were noticeably different as it did not follow the manga and had some wonky characterization due to the first half being directed by Masaaki Ōsumi with the second half being directed by the legendary Hayao Miyazaki and Isao Takahata which made Lupin go from (bit of a content warning: people get hanged by the neck) actual sociopath who would kill men by the dozen on the drop of a dime to the type of guy who would prefers to troll people when stealing and commit comedic jewelry heists. The series would eventually be cancelled due to poor ratings (that's what you get when you're credited as the first ever Japanese animated series intended for adults) however due to rapid popularity found in reruns it would be greenlit a sequel.

Part 2 follows the cast as they go on far more episodic adventures thanks to the series following Miyazaki's approach rather than Osumi who wanted to create some mystery surrounding Fujiko's character (she didn't really have one back then lol). From this point onward the franchise will have various different writers, directors, producers, ect as Miyazaki and Takahata create peak. So there won't be mentions of individual creators as that'd take all day. Throughout this part things take..... a very weird turn from what would've been expected from the series prior, Lupin has officially lost all of his edge and became a perv with a heart of gold, Fujiko has taken a more active role in the story, and the stories in question have gotten far more absurd than just the typical crime. Lupin gets possessed and cursed by a pharaoh, steals the entire Christ the Redeemer statue, faces against the sister of Jesus Christ who is a 2,000 year old vampire?!!??!?! This entire part is littered with more supernatural elements, gags, and consists of some of the weirdest and out there sections of the franchise's 50 years worth of content in terms of premise. Plus this is where the start of a long line of Goemon backstory alterations begin, where he sees his master die a second time.

Part 3 is were things get really weird...... assuming the part of Jesus' sister wasn't weird enough. In this part Lupin takes a bit of a more suave and cool role at the beginning however as it goes on and on it eventually turns into actual Scooby Doo where it mostly sticks to absurd gags and tricks in terms of characterization and presentation. This is often seen as the 'black sheep' of the franchise due to the later half and is the only TV Part to not have an English release. However due to it's status and importance, it's still regarded as a major part of his history that can't be skipped under any circumstances.

The franchise then detoured into The Woman Called Fujiko Mine, a far more adult series which sought to bring back the adult edge the characters had lost over the decades (Almost 40 years, golly!). This part played a vital role for the franchise as it returned to it's roots to being for adults and had shaken off much of the rust that the more Saturday morning parts of the franchise had created. It also retconned some character backstories for the 30th time however it does stay somewhat consistent with other's like how Jigen's mostly stayed the same. (Unironically Jigen has easily the most comprehensible history when you take everything into account, everyone else has contradictions left and right where he just has some slight room for disbelief)

Part 4 is where things take an interesting turn, as it acts as a combination of everything that had come before it with a new twist! An overarching story that spanned over the entire season! While this did introduce the concept of a 'plot' to the franchise, it should still be noted that it treats itself as a bit of a composite and still disregarded any prior continuity as there are seldom any accounts of prior media with the ones even remotely hinting towards it amounting nothing more than incredibly minor references (reusing some old character designs for background NPCs, Lupin wearing similar glasses to a very old episode, ect). The entirety of this part is still self contained and while it does contain aspects of everything before it, it's still very different to it all because it's simultaneously everything that came before but fused together.

Part 5 is the 50th anniversary for the franchise, and because of it they decided to cram in a bunch of references to older media to an (almost) unheard of and absurd degree. It showcased the characters throughout the years confirming past events like various TV Specials, Movies, and OVAs (more on that later).... The problem that they confirm so much media that they directly showcase 2 completely different 'continuities' and origin stories for the cast confirming both events to have occurred just with a single scene (elaborated on in Movie section). And while it still had overarching stories like part 4, it was instead split up between 4 different mini-arcs with there being 7 episodic episodes throughout it having the franchise slowly revert back to it's episodic origin. So while it is the most continuity heavy part.... it's also only that way because they composited the entire franchise into one.

• Some characters have also been flanderized in this part of the story, for example Goemon was made so comedically bad with technology that he didn't even know how to use a standard camera, having it upside down AND pointed at him. This is the same man who could get a high score on a video game in the goofier Part 3 version and co-pilot a rocket ship.

Finally we have Part 6, which has 2 stories placed into it however they have now taken a much harder backseat in favor of going back to the episodic formula once again, so much so that the 2nd story is just combining all the episodic episodes and saying that they are loosely connected! With the episodic episodes reaching new heights of absurdity not seen since Part 2, so much so we are involving ACTUAL BIBICAL HEAVEN AND HELL INTO THINGS AS THE OBJECTIVE IS TO STEAL LUCIFER'S CORPSE!!!

All of this to say, the franchise has been wildly inconsistent with both continuity, characterization, and tone throughout the decades. And that only becomes more apparent with....

TV Specials, Movies, and OVA History: This will be shorter than the prior part, as to not take 50 years to explain. To put it simply, the franchise has had amounted a very large amount of these throughout the decades. It's to the point that they actually almost released one every single year for the entirety of it, with only a small gap where this didn't happen. These movies range rapidly from character personalities and tone from Mystery of Mamo's insanity, Castle of Cagliostro's remorseful but upbeat man, to The First's more classic characterization, Lupin is still portrayed wildly different as the decades have gone with each one giving additional different continuities. Examples of this include Is Lupin Still Burning? which follow's the thief's original Part 1 story or First Contact which completely changes it from the story, characters, all the way down to the very location (both of which were explicitly in the Part 5). With Lupin Zero throwing it's own entire wrench into both stories despite being the most recent part of it all.

• This is also where a lot of Goemon backstories get altered, where he changes further as his sword has been retconned in First Contact, then being retconned again in The First.

All of that however doesn't hold a candle to the other time the franchise decided to composite itself, Green vs Red. This acted as the 40th anniversary of the franchise and as such housed an absurdly high number of references..... so much so that it became the plot! Countless different Lupin exist in this OVA, some so equally valid that not even the gang themselves can tell which is real or not. The entire point of the movie is Lupin is less of an individual, but a concept with there always being another one to take up the title and be another carbon copy. The mere existence of this movie would make every single other movie, special, ova, and even individual episodes unquantifiable due to how many Lupin have committed crimes over the in-universe decades. With them being so similar that they'd just scale to each other anyway and result in every single profile for em being the exact same except this one comes in red.... how unique!

So in both the TV Parts and the Movies, they either treat previous continuity as non-existent or decide to just composite it all instead of favoring one side or the other. However there is still additional parts of the multi-media franchise like....

Pachinko History: I'm not going to waste your time on this so I'll make it nice and quick. 25 years of history, 30 games, various of which include their own stories made an animated by TMS. Runs on similar logic to the previously mentioned with various TMS exclusive characters popping up and even some sequels to the movies

The reason why this is included, alongside everything else above it is for one simple reason, TMS. The only thing tying all of this together is the fact that it's owned and approved by TMS Entertainment, they are the singular consistent line connecting all of these contradicting points together to make one massive whole. Without this line we'd be left with characters with a dozen different personalities, at least 3 different contradictory backstories, and a timeline that can best be described as a big ball of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff. Community and company alike view the franchise as having no 'true canon' to it, so there's little reason to do so here.

What does this change? AKA TLDR: Well uh...... nothing really! The only thing this changes is put a little composite category on the entire cast, prevent future arguments on every single revision on if something does or doesn't count, aaaand that's about it. The main criteria that was being used before was just "Made or approved by TMS" with the only real reason that we didn't composite them being the fact that we wanted to favor some consistency throughout the verse due to how..... random and absurd it can get at times. However as revisions have been made for it me and other knowledgeable members have come to see that a composite rating is just the most accurate one and leads to the most accurate versions of the characters from a public and company sense of view. This is just to make it official.

And for people who want the bullet points

• 50 years worth of countless media, none of which give the cast a fundamental history to follow that isn't equally valid to another contradictory one.
• None of the media can properly be separated, aspects of them have bled into one another meaning there would be thousands of alternative character versions if done so and any arbitrary separation would just result in mixing various versions into one anyway
• The verse has already composited itself on several occasions before and current
• Going by Part 5 logic, everything happened to the same set of characters meaning that they'd get everything by default. And going by the Movie logic there are far too many Lupins to make separate profiles for, with there being not enough distinction between them that warrant different profiles as each is basically the exact same guy. So it's either we take a composited timeline or we take a timeline so fractured it's just better to composite.
• The profiles already use composited versions, as it takes feats from various of these examples like the pilot film, TV Parts, and many movies, OVAs, and TV Specials, with the exclusion of Pachinkos, which has a current revision being made which will add them
• It would be the most accurate depiction of them as a cast as both the company and fandom views them in such a manner, as there's not a real place to start the series due to how episodic it is.
• This only applies to TMS content, as that is the primary versions of the characters known from the public as opposed to the original versions who have wildly different traits and haven't seen the light of day since the 80s

Edit: Guess I forgot to directly put the fact in here and only hinted at it lol. TMS Entertainment are considered the owners and copyright owners of everything Lupin related. With them having direct involvement with almost all of the animated media that the franchise has had, this naturally includes everything mentioned above. So much so that while Monkey Punch created the manga and is credited in every media format TMS are directly credited right next to him on everything that isn't his original manga, treating themselves on equal status as the original author on everything.

Basically, everything above would be considered primary and secondary regardless of interpretations.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

TV History: From there an eventual pilot film would be created which would turn into the Part 1 series spanning 1971 to 1972. While these took inspiration from the manga, they were noticeably different as it did not follow the manga and had some wonky characterization due to the first half being directed by Masaaki Ōsumi with the second half being directed by the legendary Hayao Miyazaki and Isao Takahata which made Lupin go from (bit of a content warning: people get hanged by the neck) actual sociopath who would kill men by the dozen on the drop of a dime to the type of guy who would prefers to troll people when stealing and commit comedic jewelry heists. The series would eventually be cancelled due to poor ratings (that's what you get when you're credited as the first ever Japanese animated series intended for adults) however due to rapid popularity found in reruns it would be greenlit a sequel.

Yeah, works good.

Part 2 follows the cast as they go on far more episodic adventures thanks to the series following Miyazaki's approach rather than Osumi who wanted to create some mystery surrounding Fujiko's character (she didn't really have one back then lol). From this point onward the franchise will have various different writers, directors, producers, ect as Miyazaki and Takahata create peak. So there won't be mentions of individual creators as that'd take all day. Throughout this part things take..... a very weird turn from what would've been expected from the series prior, Lupin has officially lost all of his edge and became a perv with a heart of gold, Fujiko has taken a more active role in the story, and the stories in question have gotten far more absurd than just the typical crime. Lupin gets possessed and cursed by a pharaoh, steals the entire Christ the Redeemer statue, faces against the sister of Jesus Christ who is a 2,000 year old vampire?!!??!?! This entire part is littered with more supernatural elements, gags, and consists of some of the weirdest and out there sections of the franchise's 50 years worth of content in terms of premise. Plus this is where the start of a long line of Goemon backstory alterations begin, where he sees his master die a second time.

Agreed.

Part 3 is were things get really weird...... assuming the part of Jesus' sister wasn't weird enough. In this part Lupin takes a bit of a more suave and cool role at the beginning however as it goes on and on it eventually turns into actual Scooby Doo where it mostly sticks to absurd gags and tricks in terms of characterization and presentation. This is often seen as the 'black sheep' of the franchise due to the later half and is the only TV Part to not have an English release. However due to it's status and importance, it's still regarded as a major part of his history that can't be skipped under any circumstances.

Yeah, I agree.

The franchise then detoured into The Woman Called Fujiko Mine, a far more adult series which sought to bring back the adult edge the characters had lost over the decades (Almost 40 years, golly!). This part played a vital role for the franchise as it returned to it's roots to being for adults and had shaken off much of the rust that the more Saturday morning parts of the franchise had created. It also retconned some character backstories for the 30th time however it does stay somewhat consistent with other's like how Jigen's mostly stayed the same. (Unironically Jigen has easily the most comprehensible history when you take everything into account, everyone else has contradictions left and right where he just has some slight room for disbelief)

There isn't anything that directly links TWCFM to the rest of the series.

Part 4 is where things take an interesting turn, as it acts as a combination of everything that had come before it with a new twist! An overarching story that spanned over the entire season! While this did introduce the concept of a 'plot' to the franchise, it should still be noted that it treats itself as a bit of a composite and still disregarded any prior continuity as there are seldom any accounts of prior media with the ones even remotely hinting towards it amounting nothing more than incredibly minor references (reusing some old character designs for background NPCs, Lupin wearing similar glasses to a very old episode, ect). The entirety of this part is still self contained and while it does contain aspects of everything before it, it's still very different to it all because it's simultaneously everything that came before but fused together.

There's a problem here. The link that you gave simply states that the series aims to combine the various "flavors" and styles of everything that came before, not being an actual combination of everything including TWCFM. Even if you took the statement as evidence, it refers to these pieces of media in the same vein that it refers to the original manga, which you have stated yourself is something the anime canon does not follow.

Part 5 is the 50th anniversary for the franchise, and because of it they decided to cram in a bunch of references to older media to an (almost) unheard of and absurd degree. It showcased the characters throughout the years confirming past events like various TV Specials, Movies, and OVAs (more on that later)....

You might want to be more specific in what these reference because from this example, it is noticeably vague. From the average person's point of view, given the footage here, or just from mine, it only looks like this footage references Parts 3, 2 and 1, which wouldn't be unreasonable from a series called Lupin III Parts 1-5.

The problem that they confirm so much media that they directly showcase 2 completely different 'continuities' and origin stories for the cast confirming both events to have occurred just with a single scene (elaborated on in Movie section). And while it still had overarching stories like part 4, it was instead split up between 4 different mini-arcs with there being 7 episodic episodes throughout it having the franchise slowly revert back to it's episodic origin. So while it is the most continuity heavy part.... it's also only that way because they composited the entire franchise into one.

We'll get to this soon.

• Some characters have also been flanderized in this part of the story, for example Goemon was made so comedically bad with technology that he didn't even know how to use a standard camera, having it upside down AND pointed at him. This is the same man who could get a high score on a video game in the goofier Part 3 version and co-pilot a rocket ship.

I see where you're going with this.

Finally we have Part 6, which has 2 stories placed into it however they have now taken a much harder backseat in favor of going back to the episodic formula once again, so much so that the 2nd story is just combining all the episodic episodes and saying that they are loosely connected! With the episodic episodes reaching new heights of absurdity not seen since Part 2, so much so we are involving ACTUAL BIBICAL HEAVEN AND HELL INTO THINGS AS THE OBJECTIVE IS TO STEAL LUCIFER'S CORPSE!!!

All of this to say, the franchise has been wildly inconsistent with both continuity, characterization, and tone throughout the decades. And that only becomes more apparent with....

I don't think this one matters that much since what you've just done is prove that Lupin leans a bit into supernatural and comic absurdity. If anything this is in line with the craziness you referenced in Part 2 and 3, which would naturally evolve from the basis of Part 1. The only thing here that really sticks out like a sore thumb is TWCFM thanks to Koike's grittier imagining of the franchise, and it's the only thing I disagree with being part of the canon.

TV Specials, Movies, and OVA History: This will be shorter than the prior part, as to not take 50 years to explain. To put it simply, the franchise has had amounted a very large amount of these throughout the decades. It's to the point that they actually almost released one every single year for the entirety of it, with only a small gap where this didn't happen. These movies range rapidly from character personalities and tone from Mystery of Mamo's insanity, Castle of Cagliostro's remorseful but upbeat man, to The First's more classic characterization, Lupin is still portrayed wildly different as the decades have gone with each one giving additional different continuities. Examples of this include Is Lupin Still Burning? which follow's the thief's original Part 1 story or First Contact which completely changes it from the story, characters, all the way down to the very location (both of which were explicitly in the Part 5). With Lupin Zero throwing it's own entire wrench into both stories despite being the most recent part of it all.

• This is also where a lot of Goemon backstories get altered, where he changes further as his sword has been retconned in First Contact, then being retconned again in The First.

I don't think that Is Lupin Still Burning is canon because of its nature which you've neglected to mention in your argument. It's a remake of the first episode of Lupin that makes a hard right into a time travel plot. By its nature, it should not be canon, but if that is not enough, at its ending, Mister X is trapped in the age of the dinosaurs, which would make it impossible for him to appear in Lupin III Part 2 in it's first episode which follows the continuity of the very episode ILSB is remaking. This is one argument down, but let's take a look at the rest.

First Contact is a story that is told by Lupin and at the end it's dubious whether or not it's true since he told it to trick somebody, though it seems to lean towards the notion that it is. As you've stated, material from First Contact is reused in Part 5 in stuff like a clip show. It seems to confirm that it happened, except it is a retcon that doesn't make sense. Lupin Zero however makes it so that this does not make sense with the character of Albert, who is confirmed to be canonical in Zero, Part 5 and Part 6. But I believe that Zero should take prescience over First Contact as it has more direct plot evidence. First Contact's scenes were included for the sake of a quick reference shot, but Zero is what the story chooses to expand on the narrative.

Lupin Zero does not actually contradict how the gang met. Let's consider the various interpretations of how they did meet. TWCFM and the Koikeverse, which I firmly believe isn't canon due to being a director's wildly different vision from the mainline material and isn't referenced in the story going forward. Easy to disprove. First Contact, which we've gone over before. And finally, Lupin Zero, which has been followed up on in the main canon across Part 5 and Part 6.

The First also has not been referenced in any subsequent media rendering it non-canon as well.

So that leaves First Contact as the only blatant showing of a nonsensical retcon which supports your argument that Lupin has no canon against the numerous showings that, yes, Lupin does acknowledge it's history and follows a canon based on the two-way-street canon order the wiki follows unless you have more examples that would evidence this. The only problems that would emerge from this that would contribute to the argument you're making would ironically be the assumption that everything in Lupin under the company is canon, which is the main thesis of this CRT, which I cannot agree with.

All of that however doesn't hold a candle to the other time the franchise decided to composite itself, Green vs Red. This acted as the 40th anniversary of the franchise and as such housed an absurdly high number of references..... so much so that it became the plot! Countless different Lupin exist in this OVA, some so equally valid that not even the gang themselves can tell which is real or not. The entire point of the movie is Lupin is less of an individual, but a concept with there always being another one to take up the title and be another carbon copy. The mere existence of this movie would make every single other movie, special, ova, and even individual episodes unquantifiable due to how many Lupin have committed crimes over the in-universe decades. With them being so similar that they'd just scale to each other anyway and result in every single profile for em being the exact same except this one comes in red.... how unique!

I agree. The mere existence of this movie would make everything unquantifiable. Again, with irony, this movie demonstrates the calamity that would be made if we considered every Lupin project canon. There's just one problem. It is not canon. While Green vs Red references countless Lupin media, there is nothing in the series that references Green vs Red, thus invalidating your argument.

So in both the TV Parts and the Movies, they either treat previous continuity as non-existent or decide to just composite it all instead of favoring one side or the other. However there is still additional parts of the multi-media franchise like....

Pachinko History: I'm not going to waste your time on this so I'll make it nice and quick. 25 years of history, 30 games, various of which include their own stories made an animated by TMS. Runs on similar logic to the previously mentioned with various TMS exclusive characters popping up and even some sequels to the movies

The reason why this is included, alongside everything else above it is for one simple reason, TMS. The only thing tying all of this together is the fact that it's owned and approved by TMS Entertainment, they are the singular consistent line connecting all of these contradicting points together to make one massive whole. Without this line we'd be left with characters with a dozen different personalities, at least 3 different contradictory backstories, and a timeline that can best be described as a big ball of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff. Community and company alike view the franchise as having no 'true canon' to it, so there's little reason to do so here.

For the reasons above, I would object to the Panchiko machines being canon. My stance is clear as it has been.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

There isn't anything that directly links TWCFM to the rest of the series.

TMS does, the literal point of this was to show how contradictory the franchise has been in both tone and origin making such distinctions pointless. It has just as much grounding as any other movie, TV Special, and Part (Also I did find some evidence that points towards it being reference in Part 5, but I've yet to study that Part and TWCFM in hyper detail)

There's a problem here. The link that you gave simply states that the series aims to combine the various "flavors" and styles of everything that came before, not being an actual combination of everything including TWCFM. Even if you took the statement as evidence, it refers to these pieces of media in the same vein that it refers to the original manga, which you have stated yourself is something the anime canon does not follow.

It does combine the flavors, however it was just meant to show their approach on how they handle the characters. If you want to go by that logic then as I said prior Part 4 is still self contained and would still classify as it's own separate versions of the characters for any other verse. As they are completely different characterizations to the Part 1, 2, and 3 versions because of the flavor combination.

You might want to be more specific in what these reference because from this example, it is noticeably vague. From the average person's point of view, given the footage here, or just from mine, it only looks like this footage references Parts 3, 2 and 1, which wouldn't be unreasonable from a series called Lupin III Parts 1-5.

The clip references the TV Special Bye-Bye Liberty - Close Call!, the movies The Mystery of Mamo, The Castle of Cagliostro, and Part III Episode 49, Part 2 Episode 143 and Part 1 Episode 1. I was being specific as later on I mentioned how Mamo and Cagliostro are fundamentally 2 different movies in both tone and characterization. For further elaboration Mamo's is a character who qualifies as a legit psychopath incapable of staying serious for an extended period of time, with the literal only things in his mind being naked women, Zenigata, and Pop Rocks for some random reason (can't show that for obvious reasons) and Cagliostro is a more casual man who acts as a gentleman saving a princess from a castle who is a billion times more serious and level headed.

I don't think this one matters that much since what you've just done is prove that Lupin leans a bit into supernatural and comic absurdity. If anything this is in line with the craziness you referenced in Part 2 and 3, which would naturally evolve from the basis of Part 1. The only thing here that really sticks out like a sore thumb is TWCFM thanks to Koike's grittier imagining of the franchise, and it's the only thing I disagree with being part of the canon.

Koike's Lupin falls in line with the Part 1 characterizations and for the most part the part 4 and 5 ones and especially with the Movies section as those tend to get gritter and more adult too. Part 2 and Part 3's supernatural and goofiness are completely different from one another as the characterization and premise are tonally different. Plus neither of which would fall under 'natural evolution of Part 1', the gang went from finding the Italian mob constantly to fighting supernatural ancient horrors weekly from Part 1 and 2.

I don't think that Is Lupin Still Burning is canon because of its nature which you've neglected to mention in your argument. It's a remake of the first episode of Lupin that makes a hard right into a time travel plot. By its nature, it should not be canon, but if that is not enough, at its ending, Mister X is trapped in the age of the dinosaurs, which would make it impossible for him to appear in Lupin III Part 2 in it's first episode which follows the continuity of the very episode ILSB is remaking. This is one argument down, but let's take a look at the rest.

You keep mentioning canon as if that's something in the franchise, there is no central canon. Every TV Part is contradictory, with the only consistent factor being that time moves forward vaguely however characters are constantly changing in personality, tone, and history. The Movies further blurs this line as they are easily the most popular and well known aspects of the franchise (Cagliostro effortlessly is the series biggest claim to fame, like it or not), has the longest running history out of anything in the franchise (50 years of straight consistent content, where the TV Parts have massive gaps between them), and continues to juggle different character personalities, backstories, and tones (several of which show up in the TV Parts just to muddle things up more).

If you want to establish an actual canon to the franchise, make an entire and coherent timeline of it that doesn't contradict itself 12 ways over, because as somehow who's spent a long and detailed look into the franchise that's just not possible without ignoring massive points in every version of the stories you look at.

Also, your information about it being a remake and disqualifying it is invalid. The special starts out with the Part 5 versions of the cast, with then remember the prior events of Mr X dying and dealing with Kyosuke Mamo, and treats other events as Pycal, Goemon's introduction, and Poon as events far into the past. It's not a remake but a sequel and the last time chronologically the characters are ever seen (also, Mr X's entire joke is how he inexplicably is capable of coming back no matter how he's killed. So even if he did somehow come back that's just character consistency. ), and even if it was contradictory we already have evidence that says that 2 completely different events can co-exist, making such arguments void.

First Contact is a story that is told by Lupin and at the end it's dubious whether or not it's true since he told it to trick somebody, though it seems to lean towards the notion that it is. As you've stated, material from First Contact is reused in Part 5 in stuff like a clip show. It seems to confirm that it happened, except it is a retcon that doesn't make sense.

It's not just referenced, but outright shown to be true. And it's a retcon that makes just as much sense as literally every single other version of events in the series.

Lupin Zero however makes it so that this does not make sense with the character of Albert, who is confirmed to be canonical in Zero, Part 5 and Part 6. But I believe that Zero should take prescience over First Contact as it has more direct plot evidence. First Contact's scenes were included for the sake of a quick reference shot, but Zero is what the story chooses to expand on the narrative

Unironically Albert is only a minor character in Zero, shows up in one episodic episode, doesn't even use his full name in there. The Part 5 scene takes far more plot evidence as it's a climatic moment which directly leads into a big fight with Goemon and Lupin, having the characters face their past in full force with Goemon having to reason with his past Part 1 self.

Lupin Zero does not actually contradict how the gang met. Let's consider the various interpretations of how they did meet. TWCFM and the Koikeverse, which I firmly believe isn't canon due to being a director's wildly different vision from the mainline material and isn't referenced in the story going forward. Easy to disprove. First Contact, which we've gone over before. And finally, Lupin Zero, which has been followed up on in the main canon across Part 5 and Part 6.

You literally didn't mention how it doesn't contradict (unless you meant exclusively TWCFM, Koikeverse, Lupin Zero, and First Contact as the only backstories, in which case thats wrong as there are other backstories in the TV parts. Of the top of my head there's the Stoneman epiosde of Part 2 which has Jigen not knowing about Lupin yet despite being a full grown adult or again the different times Goemon's own backstories have changed throughout the TV Episodes, hell sometimes they just ignore the fact that they die sometimes) and every single version of Jigen and Lupin's backstories treat it as if they never met prior and as if they were strangers until adults.

And again, it doesn't matter what you believe the canon is, as such a precedent is practically non-existent in the franchise and if we were to use any precedent it would create something so fractured and contradictory that it's better to composite anyway.

So that leaves First Contact as the only blatant showing of a nonsensical retcon which supports your argument that Lupin has no canon against the numerous showings that, yes, Lupin does acknowledge it's history and follows a canon based on the two-way-street canon order the wiki follows unless you have more examples that would evidence this. The only problems that would emerge from this that would contribute to the argument you're making would ironically be the assumption that everything in Lupin under the company is canon, which is the main thesis of this CRT, which I cannot agree with.

If we accept that as a two way showing, they we'd accept everything mentioned in the verse as TMS are the primary creators of the franchise and it proves that the gang aren't limited to one specific form of media. The franchise either follows continuity so loose that it falls apart at the slightest push or continuity so strong that it's merging timelines together.

Other examples of the franchise contradicting itself is ironically in a character you've mentioned already, Albert! Despite the fact that he is a very new character he already has 2 backstories in Part 5 and Lupin Zero, one of which treats it as if Lupin didn't get his name/title until he was an adult and probably has no direct connection to the Lupin bloodline as he was a different guy back then (contradicting countless media before the fact which treats it the opposite manner, as Lupin has always been a born thief and has several sources confirming and enforcing the fact that it's an inherited thing. Most noticeable example mentioned prior again with Kyosuke Mamo having the literal time traveling knowledge of the Lupin bloodline) and the other backstory treats them as meeting as kids and earning the title there (which was just a ruse by Lupin the First to steal people's organs to extend his lifespan and had no real grounds) with that being contradictory again because Jigen and Lupin didn't know each other prior. Ironically it's the TV Episodes that have the most contradictions in the entire franchise, that's what happens when you try to apply canon to something that lacks it.

I agree. The mere existence of this movie would make everything unquantifiable. Again, with irony, this movie demonstrates the calamity that would be made if we considered every Lupin project canon. There's just one problem. It is not canon. While Green vs Red references countless Lupin media, there is nothing in the series that references Green vs Red, thus invalidating your argument.

Again, that is under the assumption that the TV Series somehow has quantifiable standing that puts its story above anything else in the franchise. That's just not true as if we want to go the Specials started first with the Pilot Film, aren't the most popular thanks to the Movies, and only have being the first TV series project by TMS going for it. But if that's enough to warrant it being the primary material, then all of the other material is usable due to the fact they also have been made and approved by TMS.

Also, if not being referenced in a future counts as disqualifying then countless random episodes in the franchise that were written and directed by random people would be removed as well with no reason as they weren't referred to later on. Most of the franchise doesn't reference itself, in fact there is arguments to be made that there is reference to Red vs Green as in Part 5 it confirms that the face we see for Lupin is just a mask meaning we have no idea who or what he actually is. Also ironically the Albert Part 5 backstory would also fall into line with this version of events as Lupin III is a title to be earned which removes many of the problems with the backstory.

For the reasons above, I would object to the Panchiko machines being canon. My stance is clear as it has been.

There's still no legitimate reason to exclude them, several of them act as sequels to prior media, are made and approved by TMS which makes it just as legitimate as every other media form, and have their own TMS made stories to them.

You can't just disregard everything in the franchise just because it disagrees with  your interpretation of the canon. The franchise has twisted and turned itself into the various other media making them equally valid for usage, has fully embraced the fact that everything is contradictory and decided to have contradictory events not disqualify things from being usable, and actively stays episodic and self contained in 95% of the media with only a small fraction focusing on prior events which make them the most contradictory and unusable parts of them all!

 

[DimeUhDozen]

TMS does, the literal point of this was to show how contradictory the franchise has been in both tone and origin making such distinctions pointless. It has just as much grounding as any other movie, TV Special, and Part (Also I did find some evidence that points towards it being reference in Part 5, but I've yet to study that Part and TWCFM in hyper detail)

Come back when you have definitive evidence that TWCFM is in Part 5 and I'll consider this.

It does combine the flavors, however it was just meant to show their approach on how they handle the characters. If you want to go by that logic then as I said prior Part 4 is still self contained and would still classify as it's own separate versions of the characters for any other verse. As they are completely different characterizations to the Part 1, 2, and 3 versions because of the flavor combination.

I'm still not convinced. From the series going forward, every single Part in the anime follows the next. Part 5 starts this, but Part 6 follows up on it as well.

The clip references the TV Special Bye-Bye Liberty - Close Call!, the movies The Mystery of Mamo, The Castle of Cagliostro, and Part III Episode 49, Part 2 Episode 143 and Part 1 Episode 1. I was being specific as later on I mentioned how Mamo and Cagliostro are fundamentally 2 different movies in both tone and characterization. For further elaboration Mamo's is a character who qualifies as a legit psychopath incapable of staying serious for an extended period of time, with the literal only things in his mind being naked women, Zenigata, and Pop Rocks for some random reason (can't show that for obvious reasons) and Cagliostro is a more casual man who acts as a gentleman saving a princess from a castle who is a billion times more serious and level headed.

For reference, you should collect scans of the scenes that are being compared so we know what you are talking about and don't have to solely take your word because otherwise your argument becomes flimsier. Also, these things literally do not matter in comparison to the specific vision that is Koike's world and choices.

Koike's Lupin falls in line with the Part 1 characterizations and for the most part the part 4 and 5 ones and especially with the Movies section as those tend to get gritter and more adult too. Part 2 and Part 3's supernatural and goofiness are completely different from one another as the characterization and premise are tonally different. Plus neither of which would fall under 'natural evolution of Part 1', the gang went from finding the Italian mob constantly to fighting supernatural ancient horrors weekly from Part 1 and 2.

No, the deliberate intent of the series is to follow the characterizations of the manga. Just because Part 1 and Koike's Lupin aim to follow the same goal loosely does not mean that they are the same.

You keep mentioning canon as if that's something in the franchise, there is no central canon. Every TV Part is contradictory, with the only consistent factor being that time moves forward vaguely however characters are constantly changing in personality, tone, and history. The Movies further blurs this line as they are easily the most popular and well known aspects of the franchise (Cagliostro effortlessly is the series biggest claim to fame, like it or not), has the longest running history out of anything in the franchise (50 years of straight consistent content, where the TV Parts have massive gaps between them), and continues to juggle different character personalities, backstories, and tones (several of which show up in the TV Parts just to muddle things up more).

It really isn't. The very fact that there are attempts to keep continuity throughout the series makes your attempts to claim it runs on negative continuity feel shaky. You keep trying to run through hoops justifying reasons to composite everything when it really is as simple as one series of films being totally disconnected from everything else. When you attempt compositing, you actually create more problems that attribute to this argument and assumption you're creating.

If you want to establish an actual canon to the franchise, make an entire and coherent timeline of it that doesn't contradict itself 12 ways over, because as somehow who's spent a long and detailed look into the franchise that's just not possible without ignoring massive points in every version of the stories you look at.

Then make a list of every contradiction. Find more scans of these problems that are so prominent that they invalidate the very notion of continuity altogether. Because if this is a CRT dedicating to educating people about the series, you need to get them to understand WHY things are the way they are instead of assuming that they'll know everything. I guarantee people will find problems given even the smallest of scrutiny from a place of non-bias.

Also, your information about it being a remake and disqualifying it is invalid. The special starts out with the Part 5 versions of the cast, with then remember the prior events of Mr X dying and dealing with Kyosuke Mamo, and treats other events as Pycal, Goemon's introduction, and Poon as events far into the past. It's not a remake but a sequel and the last time chronologically the characters are ever seen (also, Mr X's entire joke is how he inexplicably is capable of coming back no matter how he's killed. So even if he did somehow come back that's just character consistency. ), and even if it was contradictory we already have evidence that says that 2 completely different events can co-exist, making such arguments void.

If Part 2's first episode is deliberately calling back to the events of Is Lupin Burning, then by that logic, the changes made to this episode's events would make Is Lupin Still Burning an alternate timeline. Mr. X's deal has only happened twice throughout the series and both of them in Part 2. This is assuming no-limits fallacy in that he magically can come back from the age of the dinosaurs when Part 2 never addresses this change to the timeline and nothing in the timeline going forward references Is Lupin Still Burning in general which should be the defining factor of determining whether something is canon or not - but somehow Lupin is just free to ignore the rules of the wiki, right?

It's not just referenced, but outright shown to be true. And it's a retcon that makes just as much sense as literally every single other version of events in the series.

This is your problem. You repeatedly say "it's consistent with the franchise because I've watched it" assuming that everyone else knows what you mean and will take your points as fact, when this statement is actually as hollow as water. You're making the insanity of this continuity more bloated than it actually is to fit your argument.

Unironically Albert is only a minor character in Zero, shows up in one episodic episode, doesn't even use his full name in there. The Part 5 scene takes far more plot evidence as it's a climatic moment which directly leads into a big fight with Goemon and Lupin, having the characters face their past in full force with Goemon having to reason with his past Part 1 self.

So Albert showing up is only important when it fits your narrative? In any case, the First Contact reference only exists in short bursts of small scenes, while Lupin Zero gives context that was previously unseen regarding Albert's past with Lupin, building on the narrative itself instead of just giving small supporting evidence amongst other material.

You literally didn't mention how it doesn't contradict (unless you meant exclusively TWCFM, Koikeverse, Lupin Zero, and First Contact as the only backstories, in which case thats wrong as there are other backstories in the TV parts. Of the top of my head there's the Stoneman epiosde of Part 2 which has Jigen not knowing about Lupin yet despite being a full grown adult or again the different times Goemon's own backstories have changed throughout the TV Episodes, hell sometimes they just ignore the fact that they die sometimes) and every single version of Jigen and Lupin's backstories treat it as if they never met prior and as if they were strangers until adults.

If you're talking about plot discrepancies in small episodic parts of Part 2, a much older and episodic show on the same level of a much more plot-heavy show like Part 5, then the weight of that argument is far lesser. Bad writing does not equal no canon at all, and Jigen's own backstory was not established at this point in time. Just because a series has a tendency to retcon things does not make it canon-less. Just that we need to choose what makes the most sense for what is canon and what isn't. don't have anything to work with given the Goemon arguments given that you haven't given me anything at all and I actively need to ask you for proof.

Also I beg of you to stop just linking to the wiki instead of outright giving scans because the wiki page literally gives no context on what you're talking about. I am making an argument based on the limited information that you are giving me instead of the full context.

And again, it doesn't matter what you believe the canon is, as such a precedent is practically non-existent in the franchise and if we were to use any precedent it would create something so fractured and contradictory that it's better to composite anyway.

I'm sorry, but I cannot accept that under the rules of this wiki. Lupin does not deserve special treatment just because of a tendency to retcon. I've repeatedly said this and your answer to it is just to say, "let's not think about it too hard, just go with the option that makes Lupin the strongest", which is an incredibly dangerous train of thought to go on because it opens SO many rabbit holes. People will see it as an excuse to composite literally everything from every media wlly-nilly just because of the implication that nothing is canon due to numerous retcons. Do you realize what a horrible precedent that would set for the wiki?

If we accept that as a two way showing, they we'd accept everything mentioned in the verse as TMS are the primary creators of the franchise and it proves that the gang aren't limited to one specific form of media. The franchise either follows continuity so loose that it falls apart at the slightest push or continuity so strong that it's merging timelines together.

The safer and much more functional option would be to set the mainline Lupin anime (Parts 1-6) should be the main basis for what is canon. And if the anime acknowledges various movies like Cagilostro as canon, then they can be applied to the main Lupin profile. This is the most reasonable course of action unless they directly cause problems int he plotline of the main anime like First Contact.

Other examples of the franchise contradicting itself is ironically in a character you've mentioned already, Albert! Despite the fact that he is a very new character he already has 2 backstories in Part 5 and Lupin Zero, one of which treats it as if Lupin didn't get his name/title until he was an adult and probably has no direct connection to the Lupin bloodline as he was a different guy back then (contradicting countless media before the fact which treats it the opposite manner, as Lupin has always been a born thief and has several sources confirming and enforcing the fact that it's an inherited thing. Most noticeable example mentioned prior again with Kyosuke Mamo having the literal time traveling knowledge of the Lupin bloodline) and the other backstory treats them as meeting as kids and earning the title there (which was just a ruse by Lupin the First to steal people's organs to extend his lifespan and had no real grounds) with that being contradictory again because Jigen and Lupin didn't know each other prior. Ironically it's the TV Episodes that have the most contradictions in the entire franchise, that's what happens when you try to apply canon to something that lacks it.

That would have been really nice to know before you tried to use Albert as an excuse to make Lupin Zero canon because now I can actually form a proper timeline. If the main Lupin anime does not acknowledge Lupin Zero, but Lupin Zero on its own includes Albert, then it does not make it canon. ESPECIALLY if Lupin Part 5 says things happened differently. This again decreases the amount of things that pose a problem for the idea of a canon. It's so much easier to find holes in your line of thinking when you are not actively withholding information that would make them easy to disprove. Even now, I don't have the scans to discover whether you're telling the entire truth or not.

Again, that is under the assumption that the TV Series somehow has quantifiable standing that puts its story above anything else in the franchise. That's just not true as if we want to go the Specials started first with the Pilot Film, aren't the most popular thanks to the Movies, and only have being the first TV series project by TMS going for it. But if that's enough to warrant it being the primary material, then all of the other material is usable due to the fact they also have been made and approved by TMS.

That is such a stretch.

Also, if not being referenced in a future counts as disqualifying then countless random episodes in the franchise that were written and directed by random people would be removed as well with no reason as they weren't referred to later on.

No, because those random episodes were all part of the same anime series.

Most of the franchise doesn't reference itself

Then we should decomposite those projects

, in fact there is arguments to be made that there is reference to Red vs Green as in Part 5 it confirms that the face we see for Lupin is just a mask meaning we have no idea who or what he actually is. Also ironically the Albert Part 5 backstory would also fall into line with this version of events as Lupin III is a title to be earned which removes many of the problems with the backstory.

This is not a reference to Red Vs Green. This is a reference to the manga. Which you can see. Because of the scan.

There's still no legitimate reason to exclude them, several of them act as sequels to prior media, are made and approved by TMS which makes it just as legitimate as every other media form, and have their own TMS made stories to them.

You can't just disregard everything in the franchise just because it disagrees with  your interpretation of the canon. The franchise has twisted and turned itself into the various other media making them equally valid for usage, has fully embraced the fact that everything is contradictory and decided to have contradictory events not disqualify things from being usable, and actively stays episodic and self contained in 90% of the media with only a small fraction focusing on prior events which make them the most contradictory and unusable parts of them all!

It doesn't disagree with my interpretation of the canon. It disagrees with the wiki's interpretation of what it can and cannot accept. Being a sequel to a piece of media is not enough for it to be considered canon ESPECIALLY if it is a spin-off with no singular author of the franchise as a whole. That is also accounting for the fact that your most prominent reason for adding the Panchiko games is just to get a Tier 9 character to Tier 6 from media outside the main anime and locked behind a casino machine.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Come back when you have definitive evidence that TWCFM is in Part 5 and I'll consider this.

Come back when you have definite evidence of a central canon and I'll consider it.

I'm still not convinced. From the series going forward, every single Part in the anime follows the next. Part 5 starts this, but Part 6 follows up on it as well.

The same can be applied for all the movies, TV Specials, Pachinko, ect ect. The grand majority of them take place during the time they were created just like the the main series (For example, Resurrection of Mamo specifically takes place in the 2020 Olympics, the same year the machine came out or the movie Goodbye Parter), the only exceptions to this is media that takes place in the past. Examples of this includes.... well flashbacks and backstories lol.

If you want to use the argument of things being connected due to chronological time, then everything else would still be applicable.

For reference, you should collect scans of the scenes that are being compared so we know what you are talking about and don't have to solely take your word because otherwise your argument becomes flimsier. Also, these things literally do not matter in comparison to the specific vision that is Koike's world and choices.

That would take far too much time and effort for something so minimal, your arguments have just been 'nuh uh, I don't agree' which are much flimsier as it's completely unfounded.

No, the deliberate intent of the series is to follow the characterizations of the manga. Just because Part 1 and Koike's Lupin aim to follow the same goal loosely does not mean that they are the same.

And just because Part 1 and Part 3 characters share the same name doesn't mean that they are the same. They are both completely different characters down to a fundamental level, just because they follow the same goal loosely of adapting Lupin III doesn't mean they are the same.

It really isn't. The very fact that there are attempts to keep continuity throughout the series makes your attempts to claim it runs on negative continuity feel shaky. You keep trying to run through hoops justifying reasons to composite everything when it really is as simple as one series of films being totally disconnected from everything else. When you attempt compositing, you actually create more problems that attribute to this argument and assumption you're creating.

It really isn't, there are attempts to keep continuity throughout the series makes your attempts to claim it runs on seperate continuity feel shaky. You keep trying to run through hoops justifying reasons to seperare everything when it really is as simple as the films are totally connected to everything else. When you attempt to seperare, you actually create more problems that attribute to this argument and assumption you're creating.

See how easy it is to change that to my side, the franchise eats it's own tail even when using nothing but TV content and also directly shows that it considers other media just as valid.

Then make a list of every contradiction. Find more scans of these problems that are so prominent that they invalidate the very notion of continuity altogether. Because if this is a CRT dedicating to educating people about the series, you need to get them to understand WHY things are the way they are instead of assuming that they'll know everything. I guarantee people will find problems given even the smallest of scrutiny from a place of non-bias.

No, I'm not going out of my way to find every single minute detail of the franchise for every single contradiction in the 50 years worth of content. The CRT gives a general idea how each part is like, how elements contradict, and showcases how elements don't mix well.

You are literally telling me to spend hundreds of hours to prove a negative

If Part 2's first episode is deliberately calling back to the events of Is Lupin Burning, then by that logic, the changes made to this episode's events would make Is Lupin Still Burning an alternate timeline. Mr. X's deal has only happened twice throughout the series and both of them in Part 2. This is assuming no-limits fallacy in that he magically can come back from the age of the dinosaurs when Part 2 never addresses this change to the timeline and nothing in the timeline going forward references Is Lupin Still Burning in general which should be the defining factor of determining whether something is canon or not - but somehow Lupin is just free to ignore the rules of the wiki, right?

What? The hell are you on about? I am legitimately beginning to question the knowledge you have on the franchise as a whole.

For starters, nothing about the original Episode 1 was retconned. The entire thing takes place long after Part 1 (all the way to Part 5) and has the characters follow a very similar scene than before (with everyone acknowledging the fact). However, X hired Mamo in order to time travel Lupin into various parts of his gangs past in order to retcon their history away. The episodes he's sent to are Goemon's introduction, the Stoneman episode, Pycal's episode and Poon's episode, the original Episode 1 was never touched.

Even if it was, it's been shown repeatedly in the franchise that time travel barley has an effect on people's memories. In Mamo's episode the cast are able to repeatedly remember past events that were erased and in this special specifically the entire gang was able to remember about their past history with Zenigata not knowing Lupin and thinking he was a common citizen to being able to remember his name and anger towards him in seconds.

And as for how X could theoretically come back, he literally has a time traveller 2 feet away from him who invented it twice. And that entire argument is idiotic since he never appears again after this event making the entire thing pointless.

This is your problem. You repeatedly say "it's consistent with the franchise because I've watched it" assuming that everyone else knows what you mean and will take your points as fact, when this statement is actually as hollow as water. You're making the insanity of this continuity more bloated than it actually is to fit your argument.

And you aren't making things dozens of times worse by spreading blatent misinformation about it?

So Albert showing up is only important when it fits your narrative? In any case, the First Contact reference only exists in short bursts of small scenes, while Lupin Zero gives context that was previously unseen regarding Albert's past with Lupin, building on the narrative itself instead of just giving small supporting evidence amongst other material.

Albert is just as important as every single other TMS thing to me. Their entire appeared alongside other TNS characters in other media is supporting evidence for them being connected.

Also, Lupin and Albert's backstory is not some unseen mystery. We literally see them as adults trying to earn that Lupin title. I am still questioning your knowledge here.

I have some important things to do rn so I can't respond to all of this. But I am honestly considering to not take your input as seriously as I was before since you have now shown repeatedly from here and previous examples to not really know that much of the verse. At least to the point where you actively lie about or misremember major aspects to the argument and franchise as a whole, trying to actively prevent revisions for any reason possible including demanding me to revert changes that staff have told me were already good enough with the approvals there, and seemingly just want to downgrade the verse just to downgrade the verse regardless of what knowledgeable members say based on your own perceived reality of the characters which doesn't coherently exist.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

The same can be applied for all the movies, TV Specials, Pachinko, ect ect. The grand majority of them take place during the time they were created just like the the main series (For example, Resurrection of Mamo specifically takes place in the 2020 Olympics, the same year the machine came out or the movie Goodbye Parter), the only exceptions to this is media that takes place in the past. Examples of this includes.... well flashbacks and backstories lol.
If you want to use the argument of things being connected due to chronological time, then everything else would still be applicable.

So are video game tie-ins, spin-offs, etc., but they still need direct confirmation that they are canon.

That would take far too much time and effort for something so minimal, your arguments have just been 'nuh uh, I don't agree' which are much flimsier as it's completely unfounded.

It isn't minimal. It's a big part of making your argument work, and the fact that you're so unwilling to do the work and add scans to support your argument make it hard to believe and agree with.

And just because Part 1 and Part 3 characters share the same name doesn't mean that they are the same. They are both completely different characters down to a fundamental level, just because they follow the same goal loosely of adapting Lupin III doesn't mean they are the same.

Part 5 quite blatantly shows that both Part 1 and Part 3 happened. This is not the same.

It really isn't, there are attempts to keep continuity throughout the series makes your attempts to claim it runs on seperate continuity feel shaky. You keep trying to run through hoops justifying reasons to seperare everything when it really is as simple as the films are totally connected to everything else. When you attempt to seperare, you actually create more problems that attribute to this argument and assumption you're creating.

How? By this logic, it actually makes the timeline cleaner and more polished to the point that there are no possible problems that staff could find with it. The more things you composite without foundation, the less stable it is and can be subject to scrutiny. I agree with the movies that have been referenced in the anime staying, but that's about it.

No, I'm not going out of my way to find every single minute detail of the franchise for every single contradiction in the 50 years worth of content. The CRT gives a general idea how each part is like, how elements contradict, and showcases how elements don't mix well.

You are literally telling me to spend hundreds of hours to prove a negative

Then just find enough, because the ammunition you've provided isn't enough and can be disproven easily. I've spent hours for less, and if you don't feel like doing the work to support your own CRT, then that's on you.

What? The hell are you on about? I am legitimately beginning to question the knowledge you have on the franchise as a whole.

For starters, nothing about the original Episode 1 was retconned. The entire thing takes place long after Part 1 (all the way to Part 5) and has the characters follow a very similar scene than before (with everyone acknowledging the fact). However, X hired Mamo in order to time travel Lupin into various parts of his gangs past in order to retcon their history away. The episodes he's sent to are Goemon's introduction, the Stoneman episode, Pycal's episode and Poon's episode, the original Episode 1 was never touched.

Even if it was, it's been shown repeatedly in the franchise that time travel barley has an effect on people's memories. In Mamo's episode the cast are able to repeatedly remember past events that were erased and in this special specifically the entire gang was able to remember about their past history with Zenigata not knowing Lupin and thinking he was a common citizen to being able to remember his name and anger towards him in seconds.

And as for how X could theoretically come back, he literally has a time traveller 2 feet away from him who invented it twice. And that entire argument is idiotic since he never appears again after this event making the entire thing pointless.

And none of this contains any scans, plus aren't properly explained on the wiki page, so I have no idea whether or not you're telling me the truth unless I go yarr-harr fiddle lee dee it all myself. But even considering that, you're using no-limits fallacy again considering that he would have been able to make a functioning time machine with parts from the age of the dinosaurs, which is pretty much impossible. And again, this does not prove that the series has ever confirmed the OVA's canonicity after the fact.

And you aren't making things dozens of times worse by spreading blatent misinformation about it?

The only thing I'm doing is collecting information from the only sources you've given me to work with. Wiki pages. It should be your job as the creator of the CRT to explain this and cover all the bases you can, not mine to go out of my way to do the work myself, which I've had to for the manga scan, and is honestly more than I should be doing for a CRT that promises to clarify and educate the series to people with no knowledge on it. This is a failure on your part.

Albert is just as important as every single other TMS thing to me. Their entire appeared alongside other TNS characters in other media is supporting evidence for them being connected.

But here's the problem. When there are as many different interpretations of the backstory as there are, this only makes the confirmation of which of them is canon even MORE pivotal and more subject to scrutiny. We can't just be this loose when the arguments for other events being canon have more foundation.

Also, Lupin and Albert's backstory is not some unseen mystery. We literally see them as adults trying to earn that Lupin title. I am still questioning your knowledge here.

I wonder why that could be considering you've lacked the scans up to this point to actually explain it. This only solidifies Lupin Zero just not being canon.

I have some important things to do rn so I can't respond to all of this. But I am honestly considering to not take your input as seriously as I was before since you have now shown repeatedly from here and previous examples to not really know that much of the verse. At least to the point where you actively lie about or misremember major aspects to the argument and franchise as a whole, trying to actively prevent revisions for any reason possible including demanding me to revert changes that staff have told me were already good enough with the approvals there, and seemingly just want to downgrade the verse just to downgrade the verse regardless of what knowledgeable members say based on your own perceived reality of the characters which doesn't coherently exist.

Your entire job in this CRT was to educate people who know nothing of the series. If you know as much of the series as you claim to, then getting the evidence of what you're claiming should be easy, but you haven't. And as a result, I've had to resort to the wiki's information of what happened instead. To top it all off, when you set out to disprove these claims, most of the time you lack evidence and summarize the plot points out of context. If you've set out to create a comprehensive CRT that would lean others to your side efficiently, then this simply does not do the job well. I don't want to downgrade the verse just to downgrade the verse. I just see something that does not work, and I want to fix it.

If you want to talk about something that doesn't coherently exist, then how about making special rules for a series while creating problems that can be solved with effort? How about making a character who has anti-feats up the wazoo Tier freaking 6 because of a Panchiko game? How about making Lupin scale to Zantetsuken despite literally being one-shot by it in the main anime, and being forced to resort to a spin-off that may or may not be canon just for scaling purposes? This is the problem with compositing without reason. It makes things inaccurate, which is against the core beliefs this wiki is for. That is why I'm against the CRT. I actually enjoy the series quite a bit from what I've seen. But that doesn't make me any more tolerant of seeing things like these.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

It isn't minimal. It's a big part of making your argument work, and the fact that you're so unwilling to do the work and add scans to support your argument make it hard to believe and agree with.

It is minimal since this is already the standard for the profiles, you are the only person who disagrees with the status.

The amount of effort that it'd take to find every single contradiction in the franchise would take hundreds of hundreds of hours just to maintain something that is already in effect. If you have a problem with it than create an entire timeline without contradictions, make a CRT for, and get it approved

Part 5 quite blatantly shows that both Part 1 and Part 3 happened. This is not the same.

Part 5 also quite blatantly shows that the alternative media is just as valid as the previous, the contradictions stand regardless.

How? By this logic, it actually makes the timeline cleaner and more polished to the point that there are no possible problems that staff could find with it. The more things you composite without foundation, the less stable it is and can be subject to scrutiny. I agree with the movies that have been referenced in the anime staying, but that's about it.

Because the TV series has had different backstories for the characters still, several of which still contradict themselves, some more obviously than other (Hello Albert).

And it's great that the movies referenced in the anime stay, glad we can agree the franchise can literally have multiple canons exists at the exact same time that contradict each other making everything else perfectly fine.

Then just find enough, because the ammunition you've provided isn't enough and can be disproven easily. I've spent hours for less, and if you don't feel like doing the work to support your own CRT, then that's on you.

I did, if completely seperare characterizations, continuity, themes, ect arent enough proof for you than that's on you

And none of this contains any scans, plus aren't properly explained on the wiki page, so I have no idea whether or not you're telling me the truth unless I go yarr-harr fiddle lee dee it all myself. But even considering that, you're using no-limits fallacy again considering that he would have been able to make a functioning time machine with parts from the age of the dinosaurs, which is pretty much impossible. And again, this does not prove that the series has ever confirmed the OVA's canonicity after the fact.

The only thing I'm doing is collecting information from the only sources you've given me to work with. Wiki pages. It should be your job as the creator of the CRT to explain this and cover all the bases you can, not mine to go out of my way to do the work myself, which I've had to for the manga scan, and is honestly more than I should be doing for a CRT that promises to clarify and educate the series to people with no knowledge on it. This is a failure on your part.

I am so glad that you just admitted to arguing in bad faith rather than using actual knowledge of the verse you personally have on it. Makes it much easier for me to understand where you are coming from here.

Believe me, I will be showing evidence that everything you just described actively made no sense and was blatant lying/misinformation in order to discredit my work. I however have important things to do right now and will get the scans in a bit.

I didn't have them before because I didn't expect someone to try and actively lie and slander to my face about the literal plot of something which can rather easily be disproved.

It shouldn't be my job to baby you at every step of the way just so that you don't disagree with something just because you don't like it.

If you want to talk about something that doesn't coherently exist, then how about making special rules for a series while creating problems that can be solved with effort? How about making a character who has anti-feats up the wazoo Tier freaking 6 because of a Panchiko game? How about making Lupin scale to Zantetsuken despite literally being one-shot by it in the main anime, and being forced to resort to a spin-off that may or may not be canon just for scaling purposes? This is the problem with compositing without reason. It makes things inaccurate, which is against the core beliefs this wiki is for. That is why I'm against the CRT. I actually enjoy the series quite a bit from what I've seen. But that doesn't make me any more tolerant of seeing things like these.

Funny you should mention your boogeyman arguments and things that don't exist.

If you, or anyone for that manner, go to the actual pachinko revision, you'd all see that it wasn't trying to bump up the entire verse to tier 6 and instead left it as outlier with the potential of being legit based on feedback to it. It also doesn't mention at any point that Lupin scales to a blade that has one shotted him before. This is entirely a problem you've made up in your head and are trying to twist and distort into something else, had you not done so then the abilities would've just been accepted, the AP/DP might have simply been rejected, and we could've gone on with our days just fine.

Please, I beg of you, stop arguing in such bad faith that it makes it seem like you don't know what you are talking about. It's an active insult to not just me and the work I put into this but also all the knowledge members as well.

And again, I'll post scans of the whole 'Is Lupin Still Burning' alongside parts of the Albert story to validate the fact that these are just bad faith arguments made for the sake of.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

It is minimal since this is already the standard for the profiles, you are the only person who disagrees with the status.

The amount of effort that it'd take to find every single contradiction in the franchise would take hundreds of hundreds of hours just to maintain something that is already in effect. If you have a problem with it than create an entire timeline without contradictions, make a CRT for, and get it approved

Because this problem has never been addressed before. Only until now is it actually getting under scrutiny. I have already said that you should only get enough. At least three to five to make your points made. It's only common sense that you should have these at the ready if you want this CRT approved, because if they were here, wouldn't it make the CRT a whole lot easier to get approved?

Part 5 also quite blatantly shows that the alternative media is just as valid as the previous, the contradictions stand regardless.

The selective alternative media that I have said could stay, yes. Not everything.

Because the TV series has had different backstories for the characters still, several of which still contradict themselves, some more obviously than other (Hello Albert).

if you want me to fully agree with you here, then fully list the backstories and why they contradict themselves, summarizing your points in an orderly manner instead of simply alluding to them.

And it's great that the movies referenced in the anime stay, glad we can agree the franchise can literally have multiple canons exists at the exact same time that contradict each other making everything else perfectly fine.

Only First Contact has this problem.

I did, if completely seperare characterizations, continuity, themes, ect arent enough proof for you than that's on you

It isn't, and that's on the wiki.

I am so glad that you just admitted to arguing in bad faith rather than using actual knowledge of the verse you personally have on it. Makes it much easier for me to understand where you are coming from here.

Believe me, I will be showing evidence that everything you just described actively made no sense and was blatant lying/misinformation in order to discredit my work. I however have important things to do right now and will get the scans in a bit.

I didn't have them before because I didn't expect someone to try and actively lie and slander to my face about the literal plot of something which can rather easily be disproved.

It shouldn't be my job to baby you at every step of the way just so that you don't disagree with something just because you don't like it.

I have literally stated that I have been getting the information from the wiki, which given your constant linking to it, I assumed would be accurate. You linking to the wiki would imply that I would be able to understand everything you're talking about if I read it. I did. And then, when I follow that logic, you call it blatant lying. I'm sorry, but that is just slander on me as a person. It should be your job to collect evidence from the source in its most accurate form. It should be your job to cover all of the bases because the majority of the wiki hasn't watched the show. The majority of the people coming to see your CRT will have to take all that you show as fact, and if you cannot support it with evidence, then that leads to me having to scrutinize it with the limited tools that you've given.

Funny you should mention your boogeyman arguments and things that don't exist.

If you, or anyone for that manner, go to the actual pachinko revision, you'd all see that it wasn't trying to bump up the entire verse to tier 6 and instead left it as outlier with the potential of being legit based on feedback to it. It also doesn't mention at any point that Lupin scales to a blade that has one shotted him before. This is entirely a problem you've made up in your head and are trying to twist and distort into something else, had you not done so then the abilities would've just been accepted, the AP/DP might have simply been rejected, and we could've gone on with our days just fine.

You literally proposed moon level AP for the verse based on a calcless feat. As for the blade, I was referring to the state of the verse before I revised it.

Please, I beg of you, stop arguing in such bad faith that it makes it seem like you don't know what you are talking about. It's an active insult to not just me and the work I put into this but also all the knowledge members as well.

And again, I'll post scans of the whole 'Is Lupin Still Burning' alongside parts of the Albert story to validate the fact that these are just bad faith arguments made for the sake of.

You do realize that you could have simply waited to post the scans, rendering this entire reply post pointless if not for the purpose of making me look bad. This has gone past the point of debating and to the point of actual animosity. Now I know how Armorchompy feels, jeez.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Because this problem has never been addressed before. Only until now is it actually getting under scrutiny. I have already said that you should only get enough. At least three to five to make your points made. It's only common sense that you should have these at the ready if you want this CRT approved, because if they were here, wouldn't it make the CRT a whole lot easier to get approved?

1. Albert's backstory compared to everything else
2. First Contact compared to everything else
3. Green vs Red's everything
4. Each part having wildly different personalities and themes that they'd qualify as different characters in any other verse
5. Lupin Zero existing
6. The movies that are included in the TV Series add more contradictions to the characterizations (unironically most movies would simply just fall under part 2 and 4/5's characters however they specifically picked some of the weirdest examples)
7. The multiple different Goemon backstories
8. Is Lupin Still Burning existing/Part 1 existing in general

These are various contradictions that have been mentioned already, even if you disagree with some there are at least 5 there that explicitly from the TV Parts exclusive

The selective alternative media that I have said could stay, yes. Not everything.

The selective alternative media that unironically has less grounding due to being more different than the average Lupin media like The First compared to the TV Parts?

I have literally stated that I have been getting the information from the wiki, which given your constant linking to it, I assumed would be accurate. You linking to the wiki would imply that I would be able to understand everything you're talking about if I read it. I did. And then, when I follow that logic, you call it blatant lying. I'm sorry, but that is just slander on me as a person. It should be your job to collect evidence from the source in its most accurate form. It should be your job to cover all of the bases because the majority of the wiki hasn't watched the show. The majority of the people coming to see your CRT will have to take all that you show as fact, and if you cannot support it with evidence, then that leads to me having to scrutinize it with the limited tools that you've given.

And yet instead of wanting to confirm on any facts about it you decided to disagree with everything up front and decide to ignore every other point by making stuff up about the episodes?

Even your arguments about using only the information used on here is just wrong.

"If Part 2's first episode is deliberately calling back to the events of Is Lupin Burning, then by that logic, the changes made to this episode's events would make Is Lupin Still Burning an alternate timeline. Mr. X's deal has only happened twice throughout the series and both of them in Part 2. This is assuming no-limits fallacy in that he magically can come back from the age of the dinosaurs when Part 2 never addresses this change to the timeline and nothing in the timeline going forward references Is Lupin Still Burning in general which should be the defining factor of determining whether something is canon or not - but somehow Lupin is just free to ignore the rules of the wiki, right?"

On the wiki's own page

"Lupin takes part in a automobile race that Mister X, presumably dead, invited him to."

Literally the first line of the synopsis has Mister X already being dead, the page has no mention to previous encounters with him or where they took place (which btw, that is also wrong on your part he's shown up 3 times in the TV Parts) and then making assumptions that changes to the timeline were never addressed in the special or Part 2 and that it's never referenced in a future example.

You, quite literally, invented your own episode and thoughts based on nothing. Not even the pages support your ideas except for the tiny part that says "remake". Which while a valid critique on its own doesn't warrant actively making up an entire plot from scratch just because you don't like something.

You literally proposed moon level AP for the verse based on a calcless feat. As for the blade, I was referring to the state of the verse before I revised it.

A man was shown cutting the moon in half, what else do you expect me to call it? It first needs to be accepted as a viable feat before calculating it and if you simply just disagreed with the AP changes there wouldn't be much problem.

Speaking of how you revise the verse, how's that consistent canon working out for ya when you make active claims like "She might have actually died if this is a one-shot self-contained episode." if reference on why a main character doesn't scale to a feat.

You sure didn't seem to think the 'canon' held much water when it involved downgrading the verse if you actually think a main lead can just up and die in a random episode and be perfectly fine next week. (To those reading this, that is still in effect, an argument that initially involved saying a main lead died in a episode is still considered valid here apparently)

You do realize that you could have simply waited to post the scans, rendering this entire reply post pointless if not for the purpose of making me look bad. This has gone past the point of debating and to the point of actual animosity. Now I know how Armorchompy feels, jeez.

You do realize that had i not said that you likely would've continued accusing me of just making stuff up with no scans?

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Hell, if we are going by the logic of "The wiki pages said XYZ so I assumed" then the literal wiki page for Is Lupin Still Burning supports 99% of the things I said besides the fact that it's a sequel. I have no idea where you got your 'interpretations' from

 

[DimeUhDozen]

1. Albert's backstory compared to everything else
2. First Contact compared to everything else
3. Green vs Red's everything
4. Each part having wildly different personalities and themes that they'd qualify as different characters in any other verse
5. Lupin Zero existing
6. The movies that are included in the TV Series add more contradictions to the characterizations (unironically most movies would simply just fall under part 2 and 4/5's characters however they specifically picked some of the weirdest examples)
7. The multiple different Goemon backstories
8. Is Lupin Still Burning existing/Part 1 existing in general

These are various contradictions that have been mentioned already, even if you disagree with some there are at least 5 there that explicitly from the TV Parts exclusive

Excluding the fact that I don't see any physical evidence which should be... the BAR MINIMUM for a compelling argument...

1. I don't have enough information about the first argument to argue against it.
2. This is valid.
3. I have already said why Green vs Red isn't canon, but you didn't even try to argue against it.
4. This doesn't mean anything.
5. Not a single scan in sight.
6. Not a single scan in sight.
7. I have already said why Is Lupin Still Burning isn't canon. Nothing references Is Lupin Still Burning Canon ahead of time, and I am going to have to address the argument that you still think it is despite that down below.

That is one out of seven that I agree with.

The selective alternative media that unironically has less grounding due to being more different than the average Lupin media like The First compared to the TV Parts?

At least they're referenced in the canon which is -- basically that bar minimum for being accepted as canon. I feel like I'm losing my mind.

And yet instead of wanting to confirm on any facts about it you decided to disagree with everything up front and decide to ignore every other point by making stuff up about the episodes?

Even your arguments about using only the information used on here is just wrong.

"If Part 2's first episode is deliberately calling back to the events of Is Lupin Burning, then by that logic, the changes made to this episode's events would make Is Lupin Still Burning an alternate timeline. Mr. X's deal has only happened twice throughout the series and both of them in Part 2. This is assuming no-limits fallacy in that he magically can come back from the age of the dinosaurs when Part 2 never addresses this change to the timeline and nothing in the timeline going forward references Is Lupin Still Burning in general which should be the defining factor of determining whether something is canon or not - but somehow Lupin is just free to ignore the rules of the wiki, right?"

On the wiki's own page

"Lupin takes part in a automobile race that Mister X, presumably dead, invited him to."

Literally the first line of the synopsis has Mister X already being dead, the page has no mention to previous encounters with him or where they took place (which btw, that is also wrong on your part he's shown up 3 times in the TV Parts) and then making assumptions that changes to the timeline were never addressed in the special or Part 2 and that it's never referenced in a future example.

You, quite literally, invented your own episode and thoughts based on nothing. Not even the pages support your ideas except for the tiny part that says "remake". Which while a valid critique on its own doesn't warrant actively making up an entire plot from scratch just because you don't like something.

I have been asking you to confirm. I have been asking you to bring me physical evidence. Just a single scan. But in this entire reply, you didn't even attempt it. How am I to ask you to confirm something you can only back up with words and wiki pages, the one which I read leaves out a lot of details.

And this is very different. We have established Mister X can narrowly survive heavy electrocution. explosions, and gunshots to vital organs. That is quite a leap from everything in Is Lupin Still Burning. And above all of that, you still do not have any physical evidence of Is Lupin Still Burning being addressed in the main canon after it. If something exists as an OVA, or a movie, or a video game, it has to be acknowledged by the main anime in order to become canon. That is the bar minimum rule for being accepted.

A man was shown cutting the moon in half, what else do you expect me to call it? It first needs to be accepted as a viable feat before calculating it and if you simply just disagreed with the AP changes there wouldn't be much problem.

No, here's what would have happened if it was calculated. Someone on the calculation team would have seen the calculation before you felt the need to add it to a CRT, gave their thoughts on it, and probably would have come to the same reasoning that it is a smaller moon than the real moon, and severely lessened the AP. There are a lot of problems considering I calculated your supporting evidence for it and got Wall level.

Speaking of how you revise the verse, how's that consistent canon working out for ya when you make active claims like "She might have actually died if this is a one-shot self-contained episode." if reference on why a main character doesn't scale to a feat.

You sure didn't seem to think the 'canon' held much water when it involved downgrading the verse if you actually think a main lead can just up and die in a random episode and be perfectly fine next week. (To those reading this, that is still in effect, an argument that initially involved saying a main lead died in a episode is still considered valid here apparently)

That was a hypothetical and you know it. Because the problem with the Fujiko feat is that we don't know her distance from the blast when it hits. We don't know if she's greatly injured from the blast or incapacitated or fine. We don't know how much time passes in-between episodes. Given this, we can't possibly consider the feat viable. In the wiki's terms, a character must be shown to be able to take the hit and be fine after or at the very least be able to continue to fight. It is completely disingenuous to bring up this example and then paint me as the crazy one.

You do realize that had i not said that you likely would've continued accusing me of just making stuff up with no scans?

You're still not delivering scans.

Hell, if we are going by the logic of "The wiki pages said XYZ so I assumed" then the literal wiki page for Is Lupin Still Burning supports 99% of the things I said besides the fact that it's a sequel. I have no idea where you got your 'interpretations' from

The wiki page leaves out so much context that would have been extremely clear if you had brought the physical evidence, which you have not. I feel so frustrated to have to explain the idea that you have to have evidence of something happening that can be seen and scrutinized in order to make a compelling argument. So much of what I've said would have been cleared up almost immediately if you brought the evidence. Hell, I might have even agreed with you, but you did not. Honestly, just say that you hate me at this point because I am not willing to argue with someone whose sole agenda is to paint me in a bad light.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Ok.... lets dance

I have already said why Green vs Red isn't canon, but you didn't even try to argue against it.
I have already said why Is Lupin Still Burning isn't canon. Nothing references Is Lupin Still Burning Canon ahead of time, and I am going to have to address the argument that you still think it is despite that down below.
At least they're referenced in the canon which is -- basically that bar minimum for being accepted as canon. I feel like I'm losing my mind.
And above all of that, you still do not have any physical evidence of Is Lupin Still Burning being addressed in the main canon after it. If something exists as an OVA, or a movie, or a video game, it has to be acknowledged by the main anime in order to become canon. That is the bar minimum rule for being accepted.

Literally of this does not matter, because guess what? The entire rules you have been making for your 'criteria' on the canon are entirely made up! You keep going on and on and on about how "everything things to be reference in future material" or "there needs to be direct statements on it" which is just blatantly untrue in the rules.

I've checked several times in several parts of the wiki, nowhere are any of your claims of 'site rules' which mind you have never actually been cited have these clauses in them. The only rule necessary to be followed is

"The generally agreed-upon definition is that the work by the original author and creator of the fictional setting is canonical, unless the author or the copyright holder declares otherwise. The primary canon is the source material first released (with few possible exceptions), with the other author works being secondary canon."

TMS are the copyright owners and original creators of the TMS Versions of the cast, everything they directly make counts as primary and secondary sources. The grand majority of the catalogue would count as primary canon as they are original source materials made by them with alternative works such as the Last Job pachinko and Elusiveness of the Fog being secondary canons due to being

"When different source materials give different versions of the same feat, and by that they contradict each other in the depiction of the feat, the primary canon takes precedence over the secondary canon."

Different versions of the same thing.

So no, the need for being referenced is not the bare* minimum for being accepted as canon. Being created by the studio responsible for the entire franchise is the bare minimum for being accepted as canon. And while we're on that fact Is Lupin Still Burning is literally a Part 5 special episode, it would've counted regardless.

Now then, this is where the fun begins...

I don't have enough information about the first argument to argue against it.

We literally see Albert and Lupin as adults when they were fighting for the Lupin The Third name, however in Lupin Zero we straight up see that he had earned the name long long ago both of which contradict each other (with the Part 5 one going the extra mile due to the entire plot of it being that Lupin is unknowable and might not even be related to the original)

Not a single scan in sight.

You know, I'd say I told ya so about the whole "I mentioned I'd do it later because I had important things to do and cause I knew you'd try to mention it anyway".... but I just did

Anyway wow would you look at that Jigen and Lupin never met before they were adults and wow would you look at that here they are as kids

Not a single scan in sight.

You ever get the feeling of Deja Vu? Assuming you meant the Goemon stuff since the list seems out of order, if you actually meant characterization then there's literally the majority of the post that is about it lol.

I have been asking you to confirm. I have been asking you to bring me physical evidence. Just a single scan. But in this entire reply, you didn't even attempt it. How am I to ask you to confirm something you can only back up with words and wiki pages, the one which I read leaves out a lot of details.

Crazy how being told to wait means that something is going to take time.

The characters repeatedly point out how these events happened already. They also show the capability of remembering past events from alterations in the timelines, which is consistent with prior material.

That was a hypothetical and you know it. Because the problem with the Fujiko feat is that we don't know her distance from the blast when it hits. We don't know if she's greatly injured from the blast or incapacitated or fine. We don't know how much time passes in-between episodes. Given this, we can't possibly consider the feat viable. In the wiki's terms, a character must be shown to be able to take the hit and be fine after or at the very least be able to continue to fight. It is completely disingenuous to bring up this example and then paint me as the crazy one.

In order for something to be hypothetical, it needs to have some groundings to work with. An argument on why something isn't valid and saying that a character could have died due to the episodical nature of the episodes doesn't indicate an idea that there is some pure timeline that cannot be changed, it indicates the idea that the franchise can be so episodic such an event wouldn't matter since it wouldn't effect future events. The question of the feat being viable or not is not the point, it's the reasoning given and it's either you used the example knowing it makes no sense, which is completely disingenuous, or you believed that the franchise is so episodic that a main character could die and thus your entire arguments on the continuity holding so much water is illogical.

I feel so frustrated to have to explain the idea that you have to have evidence of something happening that can be seen and scrutinized in order to make a compelling argument. So much of what I've said would have been cleared up almost immediately if you brought the evidence. Hell, I might have even agreed with you, but you did not. Honestly, just say that you hate me at this point because I am not willing to argue with someone whose sole agenda is to paint me in a bad light.

And I feel frustrated that you are trying to keep the verse to a standard that the Wiki doesn't even require it to hold up to, trying again and again to make me do a bunch of research and prove onto things that ultimately don't need that much research into them because of the fact that the various forms of media are made by their original creators TMS. You can argue all you want about company consistency or what they do or don't care about, that doesn't change the fact that they are the legitimate source and fulfill everything required for the wiki to accept it.

I don't hate people, I just have a strong dislike for when people either lie or misinform straight to my face and act like it's the truth. If you don't know as much of the verse or even the rules of Canon on the wiki, then I really don't apricate you making countless demands for things that aren't needed as it just seems like bad faith intentionally or not.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Ok.... lets dance


Literally of this does not matter, because guess what? The entire rules you have been making for your 'criteria' on the canon are entirely made up! You keep going on and on and on about how "everything things to be reference in future material" or "there needs to be direct statements on it" which is just blatantly untrue in the rules.

I've checked several times in several parts of the wiki, nowhere are any of your claims of 'site rules' which mind you have never actually been cited have these clauses in them. The only rule necessary to be followed is

"The generally agreed-upon definition is that the work by the original author and creator of the fictional setting is canonical, unless the author or the copyright holder declares otherwise. The primary canon is the source material first released (with few possible exceptions), with the other author works being secondary canon."

TMS are the copyright owners and original creators of the TMS Versions of the cast, everything they directly make counts as primary and secondary sources. The grand majority of the catalogue would count as primary canon as they are original source materials made by them with alternative works such as the Last Job pachinko and Elusiveness of the Fog being secondary canons due to being

"When different source materials give different versions of the same feat, and by that they contradict each other in the depiction of the feat, the primary canon takes precedence over the secondary canon."

Different versions of the same thing.

I have been through this song and dance with Scooby-Doo, which I singlehandedly worked on to unify the verse's timeline. Warner Bros are the copyright owners and the creators, Hanna and Barbara, are no longer available to oversee it and it's canon. Similarly to Lupin, the canon does contradict itself a bunch of times due to retcons and ultimately, I was forced to exclude a bunch of side-movies like the kind that is shown in Lupin's canon. An argument could easily be made that it has no canon except for the few moments when it does flashbacks and direct sequels like Return to Zombie Island and its following projects. When applying content from things like Zombie Island and such, I was directly challenged to establish continuity by staff, even before the multiverse thing was found out and regardless of the similar copyright holder debacle. Basically, it just feels -- really unfair that you're planning on getting away with that when I've had to put in the work to unify the timeline, despite having just as much in consistencies and retcons as the Lupin III timeline. Same could be said for other cartoon franchises which really does put a bad taste in my mouth. I'm sorry for getting aggravated and being so harshly scrutinizing on you. I was admittedly getting a bit spiteful in my replies due to how easily you could get away with more than I've had to fight tooth and nail to get. But, I do feel like it is my responsibility to maintain a sense of accuracy after seeing how important canon is not just to debates, but to the integrity of the wiki. That being said, I still have to do my best to carry out my side of the debate.

So no, the need for being referenced is not the bare* minimum for being accepted as canon. Being created by the studio responsible for the entire franchise is the bare minimum for being accepted as canon. And while we're on that fact Is Lupin Still Burning is literally a Part 5 special episode, it would've counted regardless.

From the looks of things, Is Lupin Still Burning is not included in the regular lineup of episodes. It's an extra add-on bonus in the Blu-Ray which in my opinion lessens it's integrity as a part of the canon, but I do see the argument that could be made for it being part of it due to being adjacent. However, its existence does throw a nail in the canon and makes things messy. If it was ignored due to the two-way canon method that I've been using to establish loosely connected franchise work, the timeline would be much cleaner and more cohesive.

We literally see Albert and Lupin as adults when they were fighting for the Lupin The Third name, however in Lupin Zero we straight up see that he had earned the name long long ago both of which contradict each other (with the Part 5 one going the extra mile due to the entire plot of it being that Lupin is unknowable and might not even be related to the original)

Again, I could see the argument made that Lupin Zero is "canon". Albert appears in both. But if this is true, then it would be easier to disregard it based on the two-way canon rule. Lupin Zero does acknowledge the TV Series but the TV Series does not acknowledge Lupin Zero. I know you're probably tired of hearing that argument, but it's just my opinion that if Lupin Zero was ignored, the timeline would be more cohesive as a result.

You know, I'd say I told ya so about the whole "I mentioned I'd do it later because I had important things to do and cause I knew you'd try to mention it anyway".... but I just did

Anyway wow would you look at that Jigen and Lupin never met before they were adults and wow would you look at that here they are as kids

Thank you for delivering the scans. The first one is from ILSB, right? And the second is from Lupin Zero, I'm assuming. Correct me if I'm wrong. Then, that does make my idea of a cleaner timeline better if both of those weren't regarded in the main canon. If you took either out of the equation, nothing about the TV Series would change.

You ever get the feeling of Deja Vu? Assuming you meant the Goemon stuff since the list seems out of order, if you actually meant characterization then there's literally the majority of the post that is about it lol.

No, I meant do have showings of the times that Goemon's backstory was retconned since it apparently has been quite a bit. I know about First Contact, but I wanted to see scans of everything else for myself. Though maybe that's something I can do on my own time since I don't think this line of reasoning is going to take me anywhere.

Crazy how being told to wait means that something is going to take time.

The characters repeatedly point out how these events happened already. They also show the capability of remembering past events from alterations in the timelines, which is consistent with prior material.

In order for something to be hypothetical, it needs to have some groundings to work with. An argument on why something isn't valid and saying that a character could have died due to the episodical nature of the episodes doesn't indicate an idea that there is some pure timeline that cannot be changed, it indicates the idea that the franchise can be so episodic such an event wouldn't matter since it wouldn't effect future events. The question of the feat being viable or not is not the point, it's the reasoning given and it's either you used the example knowing it makes no sense, which is completely disingenuous, or you believed that the franchise is so episodic that a main character could die and thus your entire arguments on the continuity holding so much water is illogical.

Sorry, I was just frustrated and confused about your reply at the time. For the record, I don't think that line of reasoning is viable anymore. I haven't for a long time. It was just an example to show how we couldn't use the feat because at the time, people were arguing on a possibly 8-C rating because of it, when I felt it did not even deserve that given the context of the episode and how abruptly it ends. For an 8-C rating to be viable, Fujiko would have needed to have gotten right back up or at the very least survived. I have seen CRTs using examples of characters being directly hit by blasts that are of a higher rating than they are, but because they are so outclassed by them, even when they get back up, it is deemed not enough. So I am holding the verse to that logic. Everything about the episodic nature of the series, I completely retract.

And I feel frustrated that you are trying to keep the verse to a standard that the Wiki doesn't even require it to hold up to, trying again and again to make me do a bunch of research and prove onto things that ultimately don't need that much research into them because of the fact that the various forms of media are made by their original creators TMS. You can argue all you want about company consistency or what they do or don't care about, that doesn't change the fact that they are the legitimate source and fulfill everything required for the wiki to accept it.

I don't hate people, I just have a strong dislike for when people either lie or misinform straight to my face and act like it's the truth. If you don't know as much of the verse or even the rules of Canon on the wiki, then I really don't apricate you making countless demands for things that aren't needed as it just seems like bad faith intentionally or not.

I know the feeling of having to fight so hard for a verse like that, and I am sorry that I'm making you experience that. But all I'm doing is upholding the same standards this site has held me to. If you want me to help with a cohesive timeline, if you even believe in that kind of thing given the numerous retcons, I wouldn't be opposed to helping. But right now, I can see that there's basically nothing I could say to change your stance on this. I'll admit, I did not get the full picture from the wiki statements and that was more of a mistake of my reading comprehension than an outright lie, but I apologize regardless. I still believe in the idea of a cleaner timeline and if staff comes, I'll back up my stance. But if staff agrees with you and the idea of a negative canon, then, it is what it is. I'll throw up the white flag and let -- freaking Moon level Lupin happen. The prosecution rests.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

I have been through this song and dance with Scooby-Doo, which I singlehandedly worked on to unify the verse's timeline. Warner Bros are the copyright owners and the creators, Hanna and Barbara, are no longer available to oversee it and it's canon. Similarly to Lupin, the canon does contradict itself a bunch of times due to retcons and ultimately, I was forced to exclude a bunch of side-movies like the kind that is shown in Lupin's canon. An argument could easily be made that it has no canon except for the few moments when it does flashbacks and direct sequels like Return to Zombie Island and its following projects. When applying content from things like Zombie Island and such, I was directly challenged to establish continuity by staff, even before the multiverse thing was found out and regardless of the similar copyright holder debacle. Basically, it just feels -- really unfair that you're planning on getting away with that when I've had to put in the work to unify the timeline, despite having just as much in consistencies and retcons as the Lupin III timeline. Same could be said for other cartoon franchises which really does put a bad taste in my mouth. I'm sorry for getting aggravated and being so harshly scrutinizing on you. I was admittedly getting a bit spiteful in my replies due to how easily you could get away with more than I've had to fight tooth and nail to get. But, I do feel like it is my responsibility to maintain a sense of accuracy after seeing how important canon is not just to debates, but to the integrity of the wiki. That being said, I still have to do my best to carry out my side of the debate.

Here's the problem with that, everything is a case by case basis and there's no reason to hold it to the same standard as Scooby Doo. Scooby Doo has an actual in-universe multiverse, has had different companies and original creators which had changed hands, and the means of maintaining the canon which I've used multiple times makes things far more simpler. Also the direct challenge from staff was because of the fact that they saw multiple shows and wanted proof on why/if they could/were connected, which if that was the challenge being asked then it'd be far more simpler then what you are asking me since we both know there's evidence to prove that fact.

As I've mentioned several times, characters that have appeared exclusively to the anime have shown up in the alternative material, there is no centralized way to argue one version is quantifiably superior to the other (as each and every TV part is fundamentally different from one another, completely changing how characters act and look) with the TV Pilot being the first media source, the Movies being the longest running and consistent source (Excluding extreme examples like Green vs Red, the grand bulk of the movies just have the Part 2 characterizations due to the popularity of it, with the only noticeably outlier being "Legend of the Gold of Babylon" since that goes to the Part 3 versions which as mentioned before is just pure looney tunes), the franchise having one singular owner that combines it together, and the TV Series directly showing that the alternative media is valid evidence including contradictory ones. It's not a requirement to prove every single example is 100% proven in the anime, however it is to provide reason of belief on why such things could be accepted.

Under any other circumstances, the far more normal and reasonable thing that the staff would've asked was proof indicating that the TV Parts were actually connected despite the drastic differences between then and proof on why the other media sources would be considered valid. Which at this point I've already shown a lot of examples of everything I've mentioned above except making direct arguments on why the TV Parts are connected (since we were both under the same page that they were, however any staff member would question the fact).

From the looks of things, Is Lupin Still Burning is not included in the regular lineup of episodes. It's an extra add-on bonus in the Blu-Ray which in my opinion lessens it's integrity as a part of the canon, but I do see the argument that could be made for it being part of it due to being adjacent. However, its existence does throw a nail in the canon and makes things messy. If it was ignored due to the two-way canon method that I've been using to establish loosely connected franchise work, the timeline would be much cleaner and more cohesive.

That doesn't act as viable reason to discredit it from being a part of the canon, an additional episode to an anime is still an episode to it. Also it's existence doesn't throw a nail in the canon as the only nails it throws are literally just things that have happened in parts 1 and 2 as every continuity aspect of it revolves around it, so by your two-way canon method the timeline is not cleaner and more cohesive as it's literally the exact same as before unless you want to argue actual episodes need to fall under that logic which makes the entire franchise unusable. The reason why it's relevant is that it reaffirms the existence of those things in the modern part of the franchise in the event that someone would discredit individual episodes because they don't show up later.

Again, I could see the argument made that Lupin Zero is "canon". Albert appears in both. But if this is true, then it would be easier to disregard it based on the two-way canon rule. Lupin Zero does acknowledge the TV Series but the TV Series does not acknowledge Lupin Zero. I know you're probably tired of hearing that argument, but it's just my opinion that if Lupin Zero was ignored, the timeline would be more cohesive as a result.
prosecution rests.

Actually there are parts that do slightly acknowledge Lupin Zero, Part 6 focuses a bit on Lupin's past and Tomoe's entire thing falls in line with Lupin Zero as it reaffirms the fact that Lupin was a thief ever since he was a kid and was the kid to the absurdly rich Lupin bloodline. Which even if you want to say isn't good enough for Lupin Zero, it still goes against the entire Part 5 thing with Albert making that backstory have no god damn sense to it (they can't make up their minds on this I kid you not). The only thing that it complicates is the Jigen connection, however that literally doesn't complicate the timeline any more than before as multiple backstories can co-exist at once in the verse and there is massively more reasonable doubt that Jigen just forgot about Lupin after not seeing each other for decades than the entire gang having actual first counters in several different parts of the planet. Unironically Part 5 is the biggest offender of the timeline problems, from the Albert backstory which goes against various episodes confirming Lupin's relations to the Lupin Estate, to outright confirming various continuities that can't coexist, to characterizations that don't even match up with prior versions of the characters (Seriously how does Goemon not know how to use a camera, it's a massive plot point that he doesn't know how to use any technology which is just outright wrong).

I can understand being aggravated and spiteful for things, however everything is case-by-case and scorched earth tactics help nobody. It's my job to provide reasonable belief that there are connections between all of the different forms of media, which I have done alongside reasonable evidence that points to the contradicting ones also being considered valid as the verse still considers them events somehow done by the cast. In order to properly dismiss it you'd need to do your own research and show proof on why my reasonings don't work, since just saying "It doesn't agree with my interpretation" isn't viable by any means on it's own.

On all accounts, I have provided reasonable evidence on why the series is connected to itself on every corner. If you truly and wholeheartedly want to disagree with it then you are going to have to do the work and provide scans in order to combat my logic, however just using things from unrelated revisions and personal opinion leads nowhere as they are not connected to the franchise itself nor are viable for this part.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Didn't realized I missed a few parts lol, morning brain goes brrr

Thank you for delivering the scans. The first one is from ILSB, right? And the second is from Lupin Zero, I'm assuming. Correct me if I'm wrong. Then, that does make my idea of a cleaner timeline better if both of those weren't regarded in the main canon. If you took either out of the equation, nothing about the TV Series would change.

The first one is from ILSB and the second is Lupin Zero, however the example from ILSB is just from a Part 2 episode and Lupin Zero is still a show that was officially made by TMS. Additionally I recall you mentioned before the usage of similar staff for evidence on this, the guy directing this has been the animation director for Parts 4 and 5 they are fully familiar with all of this.

No, I meant do have showings of the times that Goemon's backstory was retconned since it apparently has been quite a bit. I know about First Contact, but I wanted to see scans of everything else for myself. Though maybe that's something I can do on my own time since I don't think this line of reasoning is going to take me anywhere.

Yeah, a lot of Goemon's backstory stuff is just littered around and it's not the easiest to find since it's the most random. Main reason he has so many is because both him and his blade have alternating histories which basically doubles any continuity he'd need to follow compared to everyone else. One example that people get tripped on a lot (which I mentioned much earlier) is how Goemon inexplicably has had his master die right in front of him multiple times, with the person who trained him changing. Additionally you have that example I mentioned earlier where one of his episode endings just gets retconned in Part 5 for no reason.

I'll admit, I did not get the full picture from the wiki statements and that was more of a mistake of my reading comprehension than an outright lie, but I apologize regardless. I still believe in the idea of a cleaner timeline and if staff comes, I'll back up my stance. But if staff agrees with you and the idea of a negative canon, then, it is what it is. I'll throw up the white flag and let -- freaking Moon level Lupin happen. The prosecution rests.

It's fine, but I can assure you that compositing the verse or giving it more leeway then you have isn't going to make Lupin moon level. Only Goemon is going to be given that credit on account of him doing it, Lupin surviving a slash from him isn't viable evidence as there are countless examples of Goemon using the sword in less powerful means (very common for him to just shred an opponents weapons and clothing but leave them unharmed physically) and Lupin was still one shot by the blade so it's very easy to argue that it's just a pain tolerance thing and Lupin was simply not mortally wounded bad enough.