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Lucifer Morningstar vs Thought Robot
- Thread starter Nether_nine
- Start date
- 1
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Superman, Lucifer has no feats that compares to him
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Lucifer fra . He destroyed the logos which is the source of 1A spectres power and imprisioned death of endless in sandman universe arc. Cosmic armor superman failed to beat Mandrakk
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- Thread starter
- #5
@Hykuu
The Source Wall in Lucifer did not contain a 1-A Monitor Sphere during Carey's run. It contained a High-1B Multiverse and thus it would be High-1B, but no 1-A Monitor Sphere during that story run. It would only be when Morrison retconned the Source Wall into being 1-A for containing a 1-A Monitor Sphere.
And Monitorid Cosmology does not hold Lucifer and Michael responsible for the creation of the Multiverse. So trying to scale Lucifer like this, to other portrayals of the Source Wall by other DC Cosmologists who say different things is a little wonky. Since the very nature of the Source Walls in the two stories are not even the same.
I would rather everyone try to scale the characters on their own merits. The same reason nobody would try to scale LT to Oblivion or Pre-Retcon Beyonder to a 1-A LT.
I might be edging towards Lucifer winning now, but I will wait for more arguments.
The Source Wall in Lucifer did not contain a 1-A Monitor Sphere during Carey's run. It contained a High-1B Multiverse and thus it would be High-1B, but no 1-A Monitor Sphere during that story run. It would only be when Morrison retconned the Source Wall into being 1-A for containing a 1-A Monitor Sphere.
And Monitorid Cosmology does not hold Lucifer and Michael responsible for the creation of the Multiverse. So trying to scale Lucifer like this, to other portrayals of the Source Wall by other DC Cosmologists who say different things is a little wonky. Since the very nature of the Source Walls in the two stories are not even the same.
I would rather everyone try to scale the characters on their own merits. The same reason nobody would try to scale LT to Oblivion or Pre-Retcon Beyonder to a 1-A LT.
I might be edging towards Lucifer winning now, but I will wait for more arguments.
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If destiny >>>Monitor sphere then it would also make lucifer >>>Monitor sphere.
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- Thread starter
- #7
@AndrewBennet
Morrison is the one saying that Destiny >>> Monitor Sphere, under Gaiman or Carey, this never happened. And the Morrisonid iterations of the Endless hold that it is the Forger who created the Multiverse. No seriously, Dream states that it is the Forger who created the Orerry. Not Lucifer and Michael.
What you are doing is literally the same as trying to scale Pre-Retcon Beyonder to 1-A Living Tribunal. LT wouldn't be 1-A until after Beyonder was already retconned. Just as the idea that Lucifer and Michael created DC is overridden by Morrison and Snyder by the times they placed Destiny above the Monitor Sphere. Back Retcon Scaling doesn't work.
I created this thread, predicting you would make these exact arguments and they cannot be used at all. We should again, scale the characters on their own 1-A feats. Not wonky back retcons between different writers.
Morrison is the one saying that Destiny >>> Monitor Sphere, under Gaiman or Carey, this never happened. And the Morrisonid iterations of the Endless hold that it is the Forger who created the Multiverse. No seriously, Dream states that it is the Forger who created the Orerry. Not Lucifer and Michael.
What you are doing is literally the same as trying to scale Pre-Retcon Beyonder to 1-A Living Tribunal. LT wouldn't be 1-A until after Beyonder was already retconned. Just as the idea that Lucifer and Michael created DC is overridden by Morrison and Snyder by the times they placed Destiny above the Monitor Sphere. Back Retcon Scaling doesn't work.
I created this thread, predicting you would make these exact arguments and they cannot be used at all. We should again, scale the characters on their own 1-A feats. Not wonky back retcons between different writers.
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Lucifer is confirmed by several members of the endless to more powerful then anyone in dc except the god .
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- Thread starter
- #9
The Monitors did not exist in that canonical iteration of DC's Cosmic Hierarchy yet by the time the Endless were wanking Lucifer. So the statements are not reliably applicable to the Monitorid Cosmology since they were used when Presence was thought of as Supreme. This "God" has been retconned after Final Crisis and Multiversity to be below the Primal Monitor in power, and (depending on consensus of this Wiki) the Writer as well. And was portrayed as being an equal to the Great Evil Beast (in which Lucifer even states so).
When Lucifer went to the Source Wall, there was no Monitor Sphere. So we cannot use statements of cosmic hierarchy that are in fact outdated to the Morrisonid Cosmology. Outdated statements of previous canonical Cosmic Hierarchy cannot apply to newer ones.
When you are looking at the Overmonitor and Mandrakk, you are either literally looking at Grant Morrison's subtle attempt to replace Presence and Lucifer with his own metafictional versions of Presence and Lucifer. Or a totally new subliminally revamped version of Presence and Lucifer. This is why he used a lot of Biblical analogues to the Monitors and the Monitor Mind. Replacing the Presence and Lucifer Creation Origin for DC while still maintaining the Endless within the integrity DC Cosmic Hierarchy.
When Lucifer went to the Source Wall, there was no Monitor Sphere. So we cannot use statements of cosmic hierarchy that are in fact outdated to the Morrisonid Cosmology. Outdated statements of previous canonical Cosmic Hierarchy cannot apply to newer ones.
When you are looking at the Overmonitor and Mandrakk, you are either literally looking at Grant Morrison's subtle attempt to replace Presence and Lucifer with his own metafictional versions of Presence and Lucifer. Or a totally new subliminally revamped version of Presence and Lucifer. This is why he used a lot of Biblical analogues to the Monitors and the Monitor Mind. Replacing the Presence and Lucifer Creation Origin for DC while still maintaining the Endless within the integrity DC Cosmic Hierarchy.
ABoogieYesSir
They/Them- 6,164
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Lucifer is supeior in AP if since he´s equal to his brother Michael.
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