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Low 2-C Nipponverse?

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FateAlbane

FateAlbane

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Ok, so everytime this topic has been brought, not much evidence was put on its case, so I figured having played most of the games in the series, I could make a case for this and see what others think.

So here's why I believe Nipponverse may be Low 2-C rather than 3-A:

First thing to know is that the games take place in a Multiverse. This is evident with the fact that Overlords and even lower characters from other games and netherworlds appear from one game to another.

Overlord Pram also states that there is more than one Universe, and then proceeds to claim that each of them are about as important as a speck of dust for the cosmos as a whole. She claims Netherworlds (basically Universes/Worlds turned into a Hell by their respective Overlords as explained in Disgaea 2) are more or less the same.

Pram1
Pram2
Pram3
Pram4
Ok. So why is this important?
Well, while this *should* be a point in favor of every meeting between the characters from different games being canon, I won't go that far.

I'll just say this is a point in favor of at least Laharl's battle against Overlord Baal being canon.

Baal appears in every single game of Nipponverse I'm aware of save for Soul Nomad, where we still get Laharl (and later Gig appearing in Disgaea games) to confirm that it's still the same Universe. Baal is also consistently portrayed as a Tyrant (one step above Overlord) throughout the series. And in every single game he appears in where Laharl is present as well, not only Laharl knows him but his defeat at his hands is also mentioned. It's a plot point in Disgaea 1 as well, since Laharl's father originally died trying to prevent Baal from annihilating his Netherwold.

But I'll get back to Baal later. Let's take a look back at some Overlord class being feats.

Making a wish in the sacred tome - basicallyTrenia, who is already rated as Low 2-C here - alters reality based on one's Mana Power (basically their reserves of energy). The higher the wish, the more costly. Any wish can be granted, as long as you have enough power to back it up. The aforementioned Pram outright says "No" to the cosmos saying "No" to her trying to wish another Overlord back to life by writting in the sacred tome. Via raw mana power.

Pram5
Pram6
Pram7
Pram8
Pram10
Pram11
Pram12
Pram13
Pram15
Pram16


Anyways. Same Pram (now in a Bad Ending) also proceeds to take over THE ENTIRETY of said Cosmos, and maintains her rule for Billions of Years and later for Eternity without anyone in the verse managing to take her out. Same goes for Hakaishin Alexander who in an alternate Ending destroys the whole Cosmos overtime.

Mao in Disgaea 3 also has one where he makes his Netherworld, all of the Human World and all of Celestia (heaven basically) disappear without a trace.

Mao1
Mao2
Mao3


Now going back to Baal. The same Trenia who is rated Low 2-C and is Omniscient in Verse (since she is the Sacred Tome), knows everything... Except how to possibly get rid of Baal. Considering she suggested wishing through her reality warping to solve the most complicated scenarios, I feel like its safe to say here that simply wishing Baal away with her reality warping is out of the table.

Baal1
Baal2
Baal4
Baal5
Baal6
Baal8
Baal9
Baal10
Baal11


Baal12
Baal15


Baal14


Later in Disgaea D2, his presence alone makes the whole netherworld feel like it's screaming.
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In Disgaea 5 the description regarding his power outright states that "The 4th dimension is nothing for a Super Overlord."
On my end, I feel like this is enough to confirm Baal is Low 2-C, but I'll see what others have to say... Because if he is, this scales to Laharl's Full Power key and to anyone who scales to him.

Laharl is the one who canonically beat Baal. I can get scans on this if anyone wants them, but for now I'll just say he is consistently referred to as having done the feat throughout: Disgaea 1, Disgaea 3, Makai Kingdom and Disgaea D2, which translates to MOST of the occasions where both Laharl and Baal were together and there was actually some plot involved in it rather than the extra battle alone.

Most of the cast has also fought him one way or another in their respective games.

I should mention as well that the Big Bang skill which scales to nameless grunts and generic people in the verse is 3-A via recreating the Big Bang by Punching once and that the description mentions it involves travelling through space and time.

My proposal here would be that Laharl (Full Power) gets a Low 2-C rating scaling from Baal and that the characters who scale to him (mostly everyone at this point) get upgraded as well. Thoughts?
CAM00314
 
\o/ Nice to see you.

Also it does seem Low 2-C yes. The Big Bang skill too, if it's supposed to be the actual Big Bang, which is Low 2-C
 
Totally didn't come back because I put all of this stuff together but forgot to make the CRT or anything.

Thanks! This topic has been brought a number of times before but its generally amidst other revisions or without scans so it was either postponed or inconclusive evidence, so I figured I'd make this one myself. Also, visually speaking, this is the Big Bang skill .
 
Should be fine I think? Our Big Bang ratings tend to vary, but in general if it's the actual Big Bang, it's Low 2-C.

Plus it seems consistent with the part about Baal
 
Husah Something I've been hoping to happen Happened

Though Would Disgaea 4 fodder being able to "slice up a dimension" (Universe) Help with this?

i know Asagi absorbing fear the great won't because Heck she just demonstrates Multiveral range via its power "easily affecting other dimensions" (read universes which is something confirmed by flonne in game)
 
...Wait, this never happened? Welp, still in time anyways.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with the order of the scans as far as I looked at it again. It's just all the sources the verse has supporting the change I talked about.

I also see no real reason for me to go getting every single video source for this again when I already posted all the relevant scans on the thread itself and even referenced the games where said quotes happen.

It would just be me wasting time to show again something I already showed in the OP, so I truly do not understand where you're coming from (even moreso because people usually favor scans rather than videos).
 
This looks reasonable for the most part, but what about the characters that are already Low 2-C?
 
I think those stay where they are, Reppu.

They are still significantly superior to the ones who are currently 3-A, tho.
 
i dont know how much one opinion would do but i think scaling everything to low 2-c when the disgaea verse was already overwanked doesnt seem right.

first using big bang to say weak characters are atleast 3-a is severly flawed, its a common skill anyone with a fist can learn, it doesnt mean they do so cannonicaly unless its a lowly demon that ascended to a very high level (demon lord or above, which isnt true), its like saying all humans on dragon ball verse fly, since they can learn it if they knew how, thats why saying everyone has big bang is very flawed, never was it showned on cutscenes/story, id say the cannon for skills are only their exclusive skills since its theirs but i know you use this kind of mentality on other games since "they can learn it".

second would be using bad ending as proof of anything since they are alternative endings,the true endind should be the only one that counts as the rest is what if scenarios that show impossibilities all the time like the main character party losing to someone hundreds of times weaker for the sake of "what if this happened".

third is using post game scenarios which one should doubt their legitimacy over being just fan service and not cannon to scale all protagonists to the same strenght as the author wants you to think they all have the same strenght when a 1 on 1 battle happens and when asked he always changes the subject as he doesnt want anyone to think theres one above others.

forth scaling the likes of flonne to laharl level when she is just there and never showed anything that would scale, in no way in the cutscenes that i remember did she do anything to prove so, being in a party of 3a+ doesnt make you one.

i know there are a very few legimitate low 2-c and 3a, but this scaling is just wrong, this is coming from someone who beat the story mode of all disgaeas over 10 times each.

- theres no way adell the weakest character is anywhere near true overlord zenon just because of post story fan service and a what if ending going from planet level to that, in any other verse where there are a lot of eyes to look at this, it would be negated and denied.

in my eyes the only ones that should be low 2-c would be baal full power, zetta possibly, laharl scales from fighthing a very weaker baal and even when sevearly weakened and on another body which wasnt his own was still stronger than overlords and majins, even if you let it slide, shouldnt scale to other progatonists if not showned proof.

im sure even i said some things i dont recall perfectly but still, the verse was already wanked a bit before and some of the scaling is more speculation than proof.

ps: the prinny which is the joke of the game that just trowing one he dies i dont think giving him low 2c makes sense, he cant even break a wall (unless he uses self destruct).
 
@Mania That argument seems to go from incredulity, truth be told. Anyways, let's go by parts.

1. Not sure where the idea of "wank" is coming from when the whole verse is generally working with cosmic levels of destruction and overlords, as pointed above, see the destruction and conquering of Universes as routine. There aren't many anti-feats contradicting this either. Don't see where you're coming from.

Units in Disgaea are canon to the series and so is canon that a unity is not superior to an Overlord who usually fodderizes what's below their lvl. Plus, the feat and skill exists. Even if we ignored the fact that FODDER does it, it wouldn't in any manner whatsoever disqualify that the High tier characters are more than capable of doing it because there are showings and displays of this level of power while there really isn't anything going against it. Should I also point out that in the beginning of Disgaea D2 Laharl destroys all of the stars in the sky to try and get respect from the Demons in his own Netherworld, only for Etna to go and tell him that any fodder demon should be capable of a similar feat like destroying the stars?
 
2. Your argument on bad ending doesn't matter, especially when most get a particular key for the post main story content.

If we only count stuff that "happens in the main story" we are outright ignoring feats from the characters and trust me when I say this wouldn't affect only Nipponverse. A massive ammount of characters with statements and such but who didn't display x or y would be downgraded or never upgraded by this line of thought.

Again, argument from incredulity. The verse does NOT contradict its own power in any manner whatsoever to go against this upgrade when at this point most hints towards this direction.
 
3. Flonne and the other characters who get the scalling are ALWAYS in the battles and more than capable of holding their own, surviving attacks and dealing damage. Again, argument from incredulity... That's akin to saying someone can go to a battle where everyone is a cosmic being while holding a shotgun and claim they survive trading blows with said characters over and over without having a corresponding level of power.

Feats and the verse contradict your point of view. Flonne and pretty much anyone who is confirmed to be in the battles should be up there going from evidence rather than thoughts.
 
1- lack of proof, while its true all overlords are star level or above, we here just latched at one 3-a and scale everything to him just cause.

i really doubt what should be 5-b at best adell could do big bang

you mean because laharl did it one at a time? and etna always downplays everything laharl does.

big bang should not be used as proof that anyone is 3-a since its not a exclusive skill to the character but something anyone with a fist equiped learns eventualy, sadly here (this site) if you can learn a skill in a game means you already learned it by default.

edit: so you are saying since most game have the MC with prinnies in the party they are by default low 2-c now, knowing theres no proof they are above wall level at all?
 
4. "There's no way Adell"

...And again, argument from incredulity. Adell's Low 2-C key is for post-game Adell who fought Laharl, Zenon, Baal and other characters at this level, not the main story one which stays at 5-B. There's 0 mentions of Baal being weakened when Laharl defeated him in D2. I don't think there's anything pointing to that on the original one either. He was just sealed. And Laharl was consistently present in nearly every Baal match the series has to offer. That's VERY different.
 
post game never cared about power scaling at all, you always win or draw by default reguardless of how weak or strong you are, kinda like what if bad ending, thats why they shouldnt be taken as serious
 
The verse itself shows the proof across a bunch of different sources. You're asking too much of literally any verse if you want EVERY character in it to go around demonstrating massive feats of destruction rather than fighting and scalling to each other. If that was the way of things, scaling itself wouldn't exist. Also the Prinny who got the scalling is the Hero Prinny who's the main character/protagonist of a game and fought Pram who should be comparable to the likes of Zetta (and outright stronger than him in the bad ending where she decides to conquer the cosmos).

The nameless Prinnys are probs staying where they are, though.
 
the prinny has a at least planet level, prinnies are human souls of the bad people, if they had planet level destruction they would destroy the planet over serving demons who treat them worst than slaves. too many things wrong with this scaling is what im saying, and no, other verses dont abuse this system, if A is wall level fights B wall level, B after years of training is building level, doesnt mean A is by default unless he proves it now after said time skip, it just makes sense.
 
"1- lack of proof, while its true all overlords are star level or above, we here just latched at one 3-a and scale everything to him just cause.

Except that again, the verse has Universal Feats literally displayed on screen. And you say the scaling happens "just because". What?

i really doubt what should be 5-b at best adell could do big bang

Argument from incredulity doesn't matter when the feat is literally shown.

you mean because laharl did it one at a time? and etna always downplays everything laharl does.

Except the plot goes out of its way to show for the entire game that Etna was right and nobody cared about Laharl's display of power.

"big bang should not be used as proof that anyone is 3-a since its not a exclusive skill to the character but something anyone with a fist equiped learns eventualy"

You just debunked your own point. The skill and the feats exist, cosmology supports that the verse is in the cosmic scale of destruction, and canonically weaker characters than far stronger people such as Overlords can do it. Doesn't matter which nameless unit does it, they can. Far stronger characters than them should obviously scale. You're basically disregarding the entire cosmology and skills/power of the verse with this reasoning.

"edit: so you are saying since most game have the MC with prinnies in the party they are by default low 2-c now, knowing theres no proof they are above wall level at all?"

I honestly don't care about the nameless Prinnies, lol. But Prinnies are genuinely a fighting unit in the game who can obliterate stuff just as any other. Your point of lack of proof literally equals saying power-scaling doesn't exist for verses.
 
Your argument against post-game not being used makes 0 sense at this point. It's like saying we shouldn't have Star Wars EU profiles/keys because they aren't canon to x or y.

"the prinny has a at least planet level, prinnies are human souls of the bad people, if they had planet level destruction they would destroy the planet over serving demons who treat them worst than slaves."

No, they wouldn't? AP doesn't equal range. You can have a character with Planet Level AP by fighting other Planet Level AP characters, who still don't have enough range nor any feat to outright bust a planet, but can fight characters at that lvl. And the people they are serving fodderize them. Simple as that. When the most absolute of fodders can go around blowing up all the stars in the sky doesn't help much their case.

"too many things wrong with this scaling is what im saying (...) if A is wall level fights B wall level, B after years of training is building level, doesnt mean A is by default unless he proves it now after said time skip..."

You have literally been talking out of incredulity alone, truth be told, so I don't feel like your argument has much backing it up at this point. And you do realize the scaling to Low 2-C is up to date, right? Not seeing where you're bringing this whole "after x ammount of time" from.
 
power scaling for this verse is flawed, because we use post game and what ifs, 2 things we shouldnt use since they ignore power scaling to begin with, story itself should be the one thing you use,other verses with the same ammount of proof went to long discussion and sometimes denied with same or more proof, here since most people arent versed into disgaea, someone says heres a what if story that shows they all scale to each other and they say, "sure why not, add it".

i would like to hear feedback from someone else,
 
i was using an exemple of scaling (A and B), i was not saying there was time skip in disgaea, you mentioned that they scale reguardless if someone got stronger after the fact without proof that both got stronger.
 
You do realize they have a key for main story and a key for Full Power/Post Game, right?

That's like saying no one with statements should get a key or any spin-offs of whatever verse should not have profiles either.

It's like saying Sidious Darth Sidious should only have his Disney Canon key.

It makes no sense.
 
@Mania Well, my point was not "X got stronger so Y got stronger". It was "X was actually this powerful when it fought Y so it gets the scaling as a result".
 
I'm fine with Low 2-C.

Also, I don't think that scaling them pre-endgame is necessary. Disgaea in particular has ridiculous stat increases that lead to some pretty wacky hax.
 
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