Looking at the Master Roshi moon feat again.

[Kepekley23]

To be fair my calc for that feat was assumptive since there is no timeframe for it in the manga, only in the anime. So it's only 5-B for composite.

I still agree with it being an outlier. Cryo, Piccolo Daimao never said he was going to destroy countries, but merely "regions of the world" - by this, it's very likely he meant the cities, since earlier on he said he'd give a demonstration...and proceeded to destroy the capital.

 

[Kepekley23]

Also, the Daizenshuu (the same guidebook that people use to support Roshi's feat), also states that Piccolo Junior. destroying Papaya Island is an impressive feat for the time, states that Piccolo Daimao's power rivals that of a nuclear bomb, etc.

 

[Xantospoc]

What about the fact Kami restored the moon?

Is that an outlier as well?

 

[Dark649]

In the Z only Anime flashbacks Young King Piccolo did only this and this, both are not tier 6 in the slightest.

 

[Dark649]

What about the fact Kami restored the moon?

Jokingly, it's that Popo brought him a small figure of the moon and fired a beam to restore it like he did with Shenron.

 

[Xantospoc]

This looks extreme headcanon.

I mean I can get with Shenron because Nameless Namekian / Kami created him.

That would still be a moon level feat

 

[Dark649]

It is, actually it was Shenro that restored the moon.

 

[Kepekley23]

Wasn't it Shenron who restored the Moon?

And before you argue that Shenron's powers only extend to how strong his creator is, that's stated to only apply if the wish is about killing people.

 

[Xantospoc]

Where was it said that Shenron restored the moon?

 

[Dark649]

Only the Red, Black Smoke and Super Shenron can wish to kill people. Both Shenron and Polunga are unable to grant such wish.

 

[Kepekley23]

Decided to go back to the scene and...

Nothing is stated. Goku only passingly mentions that Kami wanted to remove his tail because it'd pose a problem when the Moon was put back together. It's never quite specified who restored it.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

@Kepekley23 We are never actually told or shown what each region of the world was. West City was considered one of them but West City is also a massive city (referred to as a megalopolis on the wiki but I have no idea where they get it from). Dragon Ball Online expands on it a little by having several regions of the Earth in the game such as Westlands (where West City is), Korin Forest, Papaya Island, etc. Unfortunately it's not really plausible to discern how large the regions actually are.

I personally still strongly feel that Master Roshi's feat is not an outlier and that dismissing it due to Piccolo performing city-level feats is ridiculous. As a result I am unlikely to change my stance on the matter and will just stop arguing it. I have made my points and expressed my thoughts after all.

The main reason why it is considered an outlier is simply due to limitations within the plot. There is no reason for King Piccolo to exhibit any moon-level feats...hell I would argue there is no reason for him to exhibit anything beyond a country level feat. His entire method of terror was to destroy one of forty-three regions of the earth per year (so 43 years total) which obviously shows that he was intending on doing it over a long long time to satiate his own tyrannical lust for subjugation. This same argument applies for everyone else (Tien, Goku, Piccolo Junior) early on in Dragon Ball.

By the time of Z we had countless planets that could be used as fodder for feats, countless character statements/evidence to support planetary feats and the villains had such absurd durability/regenerative ability that they could nuke entire solar systems and come back from it...thus giving them leeway to show off their abilities.

 

[Kepekley23]

The thing is that according to Daimao, firing two of those attacks in a row would make him unable to fight due to exhaustion.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Right but that isn't relevant. Dragon Ball characters don't destroy planets with every single attack they use. Frieza's second form was capable of effortlessly waving entire oceans away, causing tsunamis across Namek but his true form wasn't doing that with every single movement he made.

As I already argued. King Piccolo had no interest in wanton destruction. His entire desire was to corrupt the entire world with sin. He wanted to do this at a gruesomely slow pace to extend his personal pleasure from witnessing the pain and suffering of every creature on Earth. In reality his attacks were likely just condensed down to a city-level explosion instead of being upwards to moon-level. This is something that Roshi can do as we see him accidentally ruin Fire Mountain with a Super Kamehameha despite trying to restrain it and we see him go from being incredibly frail to bulking up into his serious power and eventually entering his MAX power to use Super Kamehameha.

At this point of the series it's very reasonable for King Piccolo to have such ki control when compared to Tien, Krillin, Goku, Roshi, Tao Pai Pai and Shen.

If we knew the actual size of the regions of Earth we could make a much stronger argument for one way or the other. King Piccolo himself outright states that if all 43 regions were destroyed 'everyone' would be dead. This implies that the 43 regions contain the entire population of earthling civilization. That's the best you can derive from it.

 

[TataHakai]

Also, the Daizenshuu (the same guidebook that people use to support Roshi's feat), also states that Piccolo Junior. destroying Papaya Island is an impressive feat for the time, states that Piccolo Daimao's power rivals that of a nuclear bomb, etc.

To add on to this, the Daizenshuu says the KHH can shatter the moon

this is a large country/continent level feat at most which is still a far cry from moon level and keep in mind this is almost 150 chapters later full of power ups and constant power progression with characters who roshi himself can't even defeat.

 

[Kepekley23]

That statement is a callback to Master Roshi.

 

[SunWukong1986]

It's way too obvious not to notice that it increases his attack potency. The moment Roshi destroyed the mountain was by ACCIDENT, which he overdid it and was sheepish for destroying Ox King's home. The moment when Roshi destroyed the moon, he was in a "fight-or-flight" situation with the Great Ape causing havOx. He couldn't leave out of the ring because that would technically cause him a ring out, losing the tournament. So he has to muster his energy to destroy the moon to prevent more destruction from his own pupil. Obviously with Ki Control, you can make your attack increase whether it doubles, triples, or even a hundred times or a thousand fold. It's no doubt that it is a big leap.

 

[NeoLunacorva]

From reading this thread from top to bottom, I'm kind of agreeing with Cryo. It seems more logical that Picollo simply condensed the area of his attack.

BUT.

I do have to throw in a counter argument: If King Picollo IS actually Moon Level and just condensed his attack... why?

Why would he use a condensed version of his most powerful attack, if a far WEAKER attack could do the job just fine and not leave him so exhausted? Especially when he's more or less just toying around.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Hard to say. You could argue that Kid Goku has moon-level durability by that point...considering he trains for three years with Kami and defeats a far stronger Piccolo who, a few years later, can very casually bust moons.

Post-Raditz = Casual moon buster

Pre-Raditz = Moon Buster is their peak

We have no actual canonical feats to scale Goku and King Piccolo from Roshi so it's difficult to ascertain if they can just tank moon-levels or not.

I personally feel that King Piccolo and Goku are probably lower than moon-level but Roshi's Max Kamehameha is just so powerful that it can perform the feat.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

Planet, not Moon.

 

[Dark649]

Rodri: Goku and Piccolo from Dragon Ball are being mentioned, not the ones at the beginning of Z.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

I know, but I'm sure Roshi's feat was also Planet level. Unless I missed something.

 

[Dark649]

I already brought that up in the previous comments, Kep answered it.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Regardless of the case we are comparing Roshi busting the moon to King Piccolo and Goku. I firmly stand by my viewpoint that it isn't an outlier and that Roshi can ONLY perform it with his MAX Kamehameha which is heavily limiting to use.

I don't really think there is a way to appropriately scale Goku and King Piccolo. They are both far stronger than Serious Roshi but I doubt either of them are nearly as strong as Roshi's MAX Kamehameha.

 

[Damage3245]

Well, putting it down exclusively as a feat for MAX Power Roshi and not scaling anyone else to it would technically mean there are no scaling problems, but it does definitely seem like an early-series outlier like Goku climbing his pole to reach the Moon.

 

[Dark649]

Seems fine then....

 

[TataHakai]

You can't just ignore scaling to support your headcanon, there are characters in the series that blatantly scale above even max power Roshi who are nowhere near Moon level

It's an obvious outlier, not just because of the scaling faults but because of the power of the verse for the next 150 chapters onwards, the only other time we see a max power KHH was when mount frypan was destroyed and that was a city/mountain level feat, that's the best feat in the series for like 150 chapters and yet you think ONE moon level feat amongst a bunch of building to city level feats is consistent? Just no, this feat is the definition of an outlier.

 

[Dark649]

I found this. I'm overall neutral about this.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

You can't just ignore scaling to support your headcanon, there are characters in the series that blatantly scale above even max power Roshi who are nowhere near Moon level
It's an obvious outlier, not just because of the scaling faults but because of the power of the verse for the next 150 chapters onwards, the only other time we see a max power KHH was when mount frypan was destroyed and that was a city/mountain level feat, that's the best feat in the series for like 150 chapters and yet you think ONE moon level feat amongst a bunch of building to city level feats is consistent? Just no, this feat is the definition of an outlier.

Who scales above Roshi's MAX Kamehameha? Also Roshi specifically stated he was trying to not blow the mountain and it happened anyways. That was Roshi RESTRAINING the power of the Kamehameha.

 

[NeoLunacorva]

You can't just ignore scaling to support your headcanon, there are characters in the series that blatantly scale above even max power Roshi who are nowhere near Moon level
It's an obvious outlier, not just because of the scaling faults but because of the power of the verse for the next 150 chapters onwards, the only other time we see a max power KHH was when mount frypan was destroyed and that was a city/mountain level feat, that's the best feat in the series for like 150 chapters and yet you think ONE moon level feat amongst a bunch of building to city level feats is consistent? Just no, this feat is the definition of an outlier.

I feel you're ignoring quite a bit of context here. If there's a logical reason in-universe for a character to perform a feat well above the series or character's typical limit, then it is not an outlier.

For example, Batman punching out Superman is an outlier.

Batman punching out Superman while wearing a battle suit created by Darkseid for the EXPLICIT purpose of letting him kill Superman? Not an outlier.

Cryo is proposing that Roshi's MAX power form gives him an enormous power increase.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

You also have to factor in that Raditz confirms that powerful ki techniques are actually multiple times the Ki of the user. Goku's Kamehameha multiplied his Ki by 2.3x. Roshi's own Kamehameha should be equal to or superior (as the master and inventor) to Goku's.

In other words this is Roshi multiplied by MAX multiplied by Super Kamehameha blowing up the moon in an unspecified time period. After which he is shown to be so utterly drained that he can't even conjure a wisp of ki.

Take this into context with how Roshi ruined a mountain by mistake despite trying to hold back his power and how Roshi never used the MAX state in active battle outside of Super. He only ever used it for his maximium Kamehameha.

 

[SunWukong1986]

I almost felt like they just overlooked a simple detail and just blindly say "nope, that's an outlier, because this character can't do that compared that character did this". It's not that hard. Don't forget what the interview says about physical limits and with Ki training. And also the power difference between the initial form with the amped up version as they power up the attack.

 

[SunWukong1986]

I forget to realize this. If we're focusing only with the size of their Ki (or "battle power", in this case), not to count in their other abilities (like speed, strength, intelligence, etc, as it was mentioned by Nappa when he said that a Saibamen were equal to Raditz, going ONLY by power) since we already know that it's not linear, Vegeta during the Saiyan Saga as he arrived on Earth was barely 18,000 (stated by Dodoria) while Roshi when he was fighting against Tien is 180 (139 since he was not combat ready; he was relaxed), Vegeta is roughly 100x more powerful than Roshi when it comes to "power" of their Ki. Obviously the battle power is not to be scaled with actual numbers like how much energy it takes to destroy this or to obliterate that, since the energy to destroy Earth is 2.487e32 (248.7 nonillion) joules of energy while the moon is 1.24e29 (124 octillion) joules of energy. And this whole "Goku beginning of Dragon Ball is 10, which is twice the power of a human", you forget to realize that Goku survived an ax to the head and bullets bounces off him while it's fatal to ordinary (untrained) humans, and he's not a human. So what does that imply?

Obviously the MAX Power Mode for Roshi isn't used for long battles, and he basically used up most of his energy to destroy the moon during the 21st World Tournament, meaning he doesn't have enough Ki to use other techniques and same to Goku, so they fight hand-to-hand until their body gives in.

 

[KaitoWu]

I have always been of the same thought that Roshi's moon feat isn't so much an outlier, rather something Roshi could only do very restrictedly.

The way that I see it is that Roshi's Ki is buffed considerably when in MAX form, but prior to Super he could never fight properly in it which is why he doesn't use it against Piccolo.

Plus, King Piccolo being the one to take down Mutaito honestly seemed to give the impression that Roshi believed only the Mafuba could beat him. Whether this means Roshi was a bit traumatised or not by the original battle could also be a possiblilty for him not trying his MAX form.

Roshi's Mount Fry Pan feat shouldn't be an indicator for his upper limit of power, as others have stated, he was attempting to hold back during that event but still vaporised the mountain. It makes enough sense that Roshi, in his MAX power form putting all of his Ki into a Kamehameha (which we know amplifies a user's battle power/ki) is able to vaporise the moon while leaving him with next to no ki.

So Roshi would only be Moon/Planet Level in this one instance in Dragon Ball, and only gains this attack power more casually in Super after he has trained to be able to use his buff form freely.

A lot of my points have already been stated here, but I just wanted to voice my agreement with a change.

 

[SunWukong1986]

I just don't see how others didn't realize that Roshi said that he got carried away when he fired the Kamehameha, and blew away not just the flames, but also the mountain and castle by accident! I guess it's due to the promise Goku made for Roshi with Bulma that got him "energized", he made a mistake of destroying Ox King's home. What's an outlier is Frieza's statement of him reaching battle power 1.3 million in the next 4 months, since characters during and after the Androids are way more higher than that. Pretty sure that's another reason they stopped using power levels after Trunks finishing off Frieza and King Cold, because it just fluctuates and it's incalculable. And surely the author might've forgotten about that.

 

[KaitoWu]

I'm almost 100% certain that the Freeza power level error is due to how much emphasis was placed on his "My Battle Power is 530,000" line from the Namek arc in promotional media.

Hell, that line was referenced in Maximum the Hormones' song that the movie was inspired by. So it isn't hard to believe that Toriyama forgot what the 530,000 was referring to (Freeza's first form) or that Freeza's estimation boils down to him believing he would be able to get roughly twice as strong by training.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Frieza literally never trained before. He might be intelligent and an absolute monster of a prodigy but it's highly reasonable for him to have just estimated a power increase that SEEMED reasonable to him based on the results of other people.

Look at it this way. Vegeta served Frieza for over 20 years but his power level was only 18,000. Dodoria and Zarbon were among Frieza's most powerful elites and have served since the Cold Force era...yet their powers were only around 20,000.

Frieza estimating that he could grow nearly 3x stronger in just four months of training is actually a pretty huge claim from his perspective. It's like Ginyu claiming he could train to a power of 530,000 in a year, utterly absurd.

The only characters with absurd power boosting are either the absolute 0.0001% of the Saiyan race, the absolute 0.0001% of the Earthlings, Jiren or Majin Buu.