Likely upgrade for Sanji (spoilers for chapter 844)

[CinCameron20]

Spoiler Warning for Chapter 844

I read the Korean version of Chapter 844 (which can be found here) and I was expecting Sanji vs Luffy to be purely PIS with Luffy being submissive.

While the latter is true, Sanji managed to greatly damage Luffy with singular kicks (seemingly breaking his nose, knocking a tooth out, causing bleeding, etc.). Luffy is shown in severe pain with each kick that connects.

Because of this, I think it is necessary to add a key for Sanji (for Wholecake Arc) and list him as "Possibly Small Island level" for the following reasons:

1) Being able to greatly hurt Luffy (knocking him unconscious after a few kicks)

2) Due to being the 3rd strongest Strawhat and continuously being shown in the same ball park as both Zoro and Base Luffy and

3) Doflamingo noting his attacks being quite strong, but this is hardly relevant.

The only thing I can think of that should be against this is Luffy not defending himself with haki.

Niji and Zoro would be the only characters affected by this upgrade, but considering Zoro is not in this arc, there would be no need to make a key for him.

Thoughts on this?

 

[Dark649]

I'm not so sure. What kind of training he did in such small timeframe to get so close to Rufy?, he had barely little chances to beat Doflamingo and now he can hurt characters which are not that far on his level. I think this is PIS.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Dark649 - Sanji didn't really have any feats between the time-skip and now (he was Town level in Fishman via scaling to Luffy and Zoro... 7-B via scaling comparable to Zoro).

A High 7-A would be wrecked by a 6-C unless hax are involved, but i'm not talking about Dressrosa Sanji.

While there is some PIS involved, Sanji nearly broke Luffy's nose and knocked a tooth out with a single blow. After a few hits, he knocked Luffy out. He should be in the same ball-park as him as shown with this chapter and the fact that he and Zoro should be comparable to Luffy in base as they've always have.

I'd argue that PIS negates this feat, but Sanji dealt more than superficial damage to Luffy. Causing him to heave up blood with kicks to the torso, breaking his nose, and knocking a tooth out, and then KOing him.

 

[RadicalMrR]

Zoro and Sanji should be around base Luffy and only losing out to his gears so I don't think this is that much PIS.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. I suppose that scaling him from base Luffy might be reasonable then.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Ant - we should wait for more opinions, but if it does seem reasonable, I can wait for you to decide on unlocking the page so that I might add a key.

 

[Antvasima]

I will unlock the page. Tell me here when you are done.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Ant - i am finished and I also needed to upgrade East Blue Sanji since he was listed as "Building level" when he should be "Large Building level" scaling to Zoro, Luffy, and antagonists of that arc.

The page can be locked now, thanks.

 

[CinCameron20]

^ oh, now I need to do Niji's page since he scales to Sanji for KOing him in two blows and taking a hit from him.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Questonable scaling based off this event. luffy was already at his limit from fighting cookie guy and wasn't even trying to defend himself or fightback.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Aizen - very true, actually. But Sanji did manage to injure Luffy with his initial kick. Even if we were to say that Luffy was exhausted, wouldn't Sanji still be comparable since he could deal more than superficial injury with his Diable Jambe strikes?

 

[Antvasima]

@Aizen That is true. Perhaps it would be best to undo the edit for the time being?

 

[Primaris_Brian]

depend, are base luffy dura was Small Island level when he use his haki or not? since its seem like he didn't use his haki to defend against sanji.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Ant - I disagree as of now since Sanji was still capable of dealing damage that exceeds superficial injury with singular blows. (I think i've used "superficial" more than 5 times in this post now, lol)

@Not Jim Sterling - that's actually not entirely confirmed. His Durability feat against Fujitora (taking 1.49 GT of tnt to the face) showed that he was not protecting his body with haki, but his 3rd Gear arm was in front of him (though it was deflected). Either way, the attack did not deal any visible damage to him whereas Sanji could hurt him pretty badly.

 

[Metabro]

Sanji was also injured going into this after taking a beating from his brothers (remember the mask?). Not the extent Luffy was injured obviously, just saying

My only question would be what base Luffy's durability to blunt force would be outside of his rubbery resistance. Sure he tanked the Fierce Tiger no problem, but his Devil Fruit probably mitigated the damage. A Haki-infused Diable Jambe kick would circumvent Luffy's resistance to blunt attacks, so what can Luffy take without that resistance?

 

[RexofLM]

Im not sold on that AP whatsoever, Luffys at his limit from fatigue and refusing to fight. I see nothing that proves a broken nose either. And if we're working under the assumption that Sanji was using Haki then you cant base the AP off of Luffy's defense because his durability against Haki imbued attacks is way less considering even Bellamy could deal damage

 

[PaChi2]

Luffy was at his limit after fighting cracker for a whole night, Sanji didnt even oneshot him. Luffy didnt struggle or defend in base, and, if sanji had that AP level, that would put his brothers in the same tier right? And that would mean that they are almost Cracker/Dofflamingo level?

 

[CinCameron20]

Sorry for the late responses. I am a little sick and trying to muscle through it.

@Metabro - Even if his body mitigated the ferocious tiger, it can be argued that Fujitora used haki in that strike since it is known that he can use CoA, and even if haki was not involved, the attack in general did basically nothing to Luffy.

@Rex - His nose was bruised and blood was spurting out of it (mind the description) and his tooth was busted. I'm pretty certain his nose was either fractured or broken. Sanji was using Armament haki (only way his kicks would be able to affect Luffy without the flames anyways), but as stated before, we have never once seen Sanji use Armament: Koka. He has only been using a basic level of Armament haki ever since Fishman Island arc. Bellamy doing something similar is actually concerning. The Coliseum fighter tiers in Dressrosa could only have their tiers powerscaled, but as with Chinjao, Cavendish, Sai, and some others, it is proven that they are not drastically weaker than Base Luffy, but I don't want to touch on that topic on this thread. However, a handful of One Piece tiers are actually pretty inconsistent with eachother (Punk Hazard Sanji to Vergo, for example).

@Pachi - Luffy being exhausted would not be a major factor in his durability. Sanji does not need to one-shot a High 7-A character to be of the same tier. If he can knock him unconscious with just several blows, he should be comparable to him, which is why he is listed as "possibly High 7-A" via powerscaling. Yes, someone like Niji would powerscale to this, but they are not "almost" Doflamingo or Cracker level. High 7-A characters can be made into quick work by High 7-A+ or 6-C characters.

Doflamingo didn't exactly fodderize Sanji. It took him noticeable effort to put him down. Sanji's tier, ever since the time-skip has always been powerscaled to Luffy and Zoro from feats (Town level comparable to base Luffy, who applied 70 Kiloton punches casually, and City level for scaling to Zoro's feat, who has not even gone all out yet).

I'll save previous arc conversations for another thread.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Yeah i'm not convinced. Sanji should not scale to a full power base luffy when he only fought A worn out and already injured luffy not defending himself. I'm against the scaling. (if it wasn't already obvious)

 

[Grudgeman1706]

Yeah i'm not convinced. Sanji should not scale to a full power base luffy when he only fought A worn out and already injured luffy not defending himself. I'm against the scaling. (if it wasn't already obvious)

This

 

[CinCameron20]

@Aizen - the point of Sanji vs Luffy is only part of the reason for the upgrade, but regardless, Luffy took quite moderate damage from singular blows from Sanji.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Doesnt matter. Luffy wasn't at his best. Stats should be changed to what they were before as most seem to share my opinion.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Aizen What do you mean "Doesnt matter"?

Luffy shrugged off 1.49 GT of tnt point blank immediately after he recovered from his fight with Doflamingo.

Sanji could deal damage to Luffy with singular kicks. Luffy was not in a terrible position. Nami's words stating how exhausted he is does not suggest it was nearly that bad, especially since Luffy was still upbeat and energetic after taking a quick nap. He was not sitting there with the intent of taking damage. He was standing his ground waiting for Sanji to come back. He did not let himself be sent back.

Sanji and Zoro have been depicted in Base Luffy's league even post time-skip.

Sanji took a hit from Doflamingo and continued fighting, having Doflamingo compliment his attack power stating it was "quite strong". Even Luffy was receiving the same type of treatment from Doflamingo up until Law used Gamma Knife.

Zoro one-shot Pika without going all out or using Asura and Sanji is supposed to be his equal in power.

Sanji's tier in general was already power-scaled to Luffy ever since Fish-man Island. Now suddenly that doesn't work here when it is quite evident that he can deal damage to him?? He had less reason to be scaled to him in Fishman Island.

I'm trying to get this upgrade accepted so that I can move to the discussion of how the Fishman/PH and Dressrosa tiers for Zoro, Sanji, and Luffy should be handled since there are inconsistencies with other characters, especially with Sanji and Zoro's tiers for PH when compared to Vergo, Monet, and Smoker.