Light Novel Adaptions

[Faisal_Shourov]

Ahh thanks for your comment Kav, it appears we're in full agreement

 

[DontTalk]

@Lord Kavpeny A few questions just to make sure I got everything correctly:

Are Adaptations (secondary canon) here defined as works overlooked by the author or as any adaption even when not watched/worked on by the author as long as it doesn't change the plot?


Are soft retcons just feats that didn't happen in the original work or also feats that happen in the original work, but happen differently in an adaption?

 

[GreatestSin]

^i would say that even if the plot is changed, as long as the general powers of the chars are in line with the original work than it can be used for further reference, as another showing of a abilitys applications for example ^_^

Scryed as example: manga and anime are totally different, and event the powers are not really comparable, shouldnt be used

Code: Breaker, the anime changed the plot but the chars powers stayed similar to the manga, if the anime-version now used a different application which is not going out of hand than i think it can be used to increase a chars power-set, (yuuki using sonar in order to find all bombs all over japan, the manga version never did it but it isnt that impossible for him either, so i would say it can be used) ^_^

 

[Nonickfound]

^i would say that even if the plot is changed, as long as the general powers of the chars are in line with the original work than it can be used for further reference, as another showing of a abilitys applications for example ^_^
Scryed as example: manga and anime are totally different, and event the powers are not really comparable, shouldnt be used

Code: Breaker, the anime changed the plot but the chars powers stayed similar to the manga, if the anime-version now used a different application which is not going out of hand than i think it can be used to increase a chars power-set, (yuuki using sonar in order to find all bombs all over japan, the manga version never did it but it isnt that impossible for him either, so i would say it can be used) ^_^

I agreed with you

In Battle throgh the heaven ( Doupo Cangqiong) though the novel has already been finished, but most of the feats is still unaccountable in its own wiki since the English version is not translated enough.

 

[Kavpeny]

@DontTalk: To answer your queries:

Are Adaptations (secondary canon) here defined as works overlooked by the author or as any adaption even when not watched/worked on by the author as long as it doesn't change the plot?

Both.

Adaptations with author collaboration are to be considered secondary canon of course, but any adaptation which does not modify (and contradict) source material will also be considered secondary canon. Of course, an author collaboration adaptation will be given preference.

Are soft retcons just feats that didn't happen in the original work or also feats that happen in the original work, but happen differently in an adaption?

This is a bit trickier to answer. IMO, only feats which happened differently in the adaptation, not entirely new feats. But fight scenes often flesh out LN fight scenes, and might have entirely new feats. What's your opinion on the matter?

 

[DontTalk]

OK, the adatation rule is just for light novels then, I assume?


About the retcons: In my opinion changes are exactly the thing we should not accept. At the moment an adaptation (especially one not overlooked by the author) changes feats it oversteps what it is canonically is allowed to do. That would also mean that we would have to rescale light novels after they got an adaptation, if the adaptation decided to represent feats differently. That would be rather bothersome to do and, honestly speaking, I would be rather unhappy with it given that I usually prefer the light novel version.

Not using changed feats is technically also how we deal with feats in secondary canon material in other media, to this point. We usually only accept feats from the secondary canon as long as they do not directly contradict the feats given in primary canon.

Feats that do not appear in the original would not bother me in author overlooked works. But in adaptation that do not have that I am more sceptical towards them. Since the requirement for those is that they not modify and contradict the source material new feats would make things ambiguous, given that very strictly spoken they would not count to not modified adaptation any more the moment they have new feats and with that would be not canon. Were to draw the line between new feats and considering the adaptation not modified is subjective in my opinion, so I would rather not use them in the context of not author overseen adaptations.

 

[GreatestSin]

^i would say: as long as the changed feat doesnt contradict the chars powerset why not using both?

for example, the toaru anime showed that accelerator lifted a building and threw it while in the novel he did some kinetic-energy punch, while i get the building part easier the kinetic-punch is "more" canon, but neither of them goes agaisnt the chars powerset (unlike some adaptations like Scryed which completly changed the MCs abilitys),

we can simply use both feats to calculate and take the one with the highest value ^_^

 

[Kavpeny]

@DontTalk: Well, the same principle is already in place for other forms of source material. If otherwise, then the base premise will remain the same for all forms of source material.

True, and your opinion makes sense. However, I had a different scenario in mind when I said we must accept feats "fleshing out fight scenes". To clarify, I was referring to in-between scenes during a fight which are generally left to the reader's imagination.

This is because fight scenes play out very, very differently in textual form, and audio-visual form. Not all authors properly describe the fight in detail. Movements, actions, and many more aspects, often seen in an audio-visual medium, are not clarified as such in the source material.

A primitive example: If the LN states something like, "a brutal exchange of fists", any feats depicted in a secondary adaptation (such as one of the characters destroying a building during the fight), before the next scene from the light novel must be taken as canon, despite not being mentioned at all.

Like I said, not all visual novels, or even other text-based sources, explicitly define each and every aspect of a fight. Hence we cannot simply ignore such feats because they "did not occur". I hope you understood my point?

And yes, I entirely agree with not accepting absolutely new scenes which have no connection to the source material whatsoever.

@GreatestSi: No, absolutely not. Some Verses are far too muddled and have too many adaptations to even hope to attempt that, never mind the inane amount of fan wank utilizing the most obscure of sources to try and irrationally boost their favoured Verse. It would compromise the integrity of every single profile we have. Lastly, composite profiles are extremely confusing to most, and also might cause internal Verse power-scaling inconsistencies.

 

[DontTalk]

Ok, so to summaries and check that everything is correctly understoof the canon regulations on the wiki for all media will in general be as follows:

The work by the original author and creator of the fictional setting is canon, unless the author or the copyright holder declares otherwise. The primary canon is the source material first released, with the other author works being secondary canon. Tertiary canon are works not overseen by the author, which do not modify or contradict source material.

When different source materials give different versions of the same feat and by that contradict each other in the depiction of the feat the primary and secondary canon take precedence over the teritary canon and the primary canon takes precedence over ther secondary canon.

If the feat is correctly depicted over multiple canons any of these can be used to judge the feat. Should by judging the feat through multiple canons different results be reached the result of the canon taking precedence, like sorted above, will have priority.

Entirely new feats of teritiary canon, like for example new abilities, should be disregarded. Details added to existing fight scenes, such as damage caused to the sorroundings, can be accepted.

Furthermore any changes will only be accepted if they are not contradicted by any instances of a canon with higher priority, with regards to either the character power-scale, or logical inconsistencies (and plot holes).


So does that grasp it or did I still not understand something?

I also have one question left. Does the adaptation (tertiary canon) as a whole have to follow the source material or just the scenes in question? In other words if fillers are in the adaptation do we then just not consider feats from the fillers or do we not consider all feats from the adaptation?

Or in other words again do we have to rescale HST profiles with anime feats based on this? Because I am certain that there a ton of stat revisions that have to be done in that case.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

In my opinion, if the scenes in the anime/manga are without contradiction to the LN, I don't see any problem with using them. We can simply ignore the fillers

HST's primary source is manga, we don't need the anime for HST to scale since the manga is more than enough. Only LN will get the privilege under certain conditions since they don't have any visual imagery and words are often upto personal interpretation

 

[DontTalk]

@Faisal Shourov: The word "privilege" that you mentioned is what makes me unconfortable about this.

Not that I, as a person that enjoys reading lightnovels, would particulary mind.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

@DontTalk Lol I didn't mean to sound biased, I don't even read Light Novel hahaha. I meant it's appropiate to use scenes from anime or manga as long as it's the same and has no contradiction, since LN have no visual depiction and feats are often up to interpretation. The HST doesn't need that because their primary source is manga to begin with.

Privilege was a bad choice of word

 

[GreatestSin]

@GreatestSi: No, absolutely not. Some Verses are far too muddled and have too many adaptations to even hope to attempt that, never mind the inane amount of fan wank utilizing the most obscure of sources to try and irrationally boost their favoured Verse. It would compromise the integrity of every single profile we have. Lastly, composite profiles are extremely confusing to most, and also might cause internal Verse power-scaling inconsistencies.

can you give me examples? all the ones i can imagine are some who can either be completly ignored (scyred) or are the ones which can be used to some extend (like the toaru animes accelerator feat as example)...