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This is a thing, one that could dramatically change the power levels of many LoZ characters and items. Thoughts?
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Legend of Zelda Revisions?
- Thread starter ThePerpetual
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It's a passive ability similar to Twilight Sparkle changing the time of day and in no way should go to DC
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In addition, when played in Hyrule Castle Town villagers immediately disappear into their houses for bed time. I'm sure this is time manipulation, since they just suddenly appear sleeping or in their houses. Manipulating time would cause the Sun to move, making neither Flat's or Sharp's statements contradictory
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Except that the Sun and the Moon move simultaneously as the time of day changes. That really only implies that the Planet is rotating, unless I'm supposed to assume that somehow this song can move both the Sun and Moon.Alakabamm said:
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@Homestuck ...proof where? You saying something without any reasoning as to your assertion does not make it so.
@Metabro And you don't instantly return to the point of entry when you do so? Please do show me a clip of this, this seems to me a case that I've already covered in the blog.
@Metabro And you don't instantly return to the point of entry when you do so? Please do show me a clip of this, this seems to me a case that I've already covered in the blog.
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Is Link able to move anything else with this ability? No. Is he able to move the sun wherever he wants with it? No.ThePerpetual said:
It's passive because it can't be used for any harmful purposes, just changing the time of day in that area. Even then, who scales to it? Link? Why, because he has the ToC?
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Exactly, and that's incredibly wrong because the items have NOTHING to do with each other, in canon or even gameplay. That's an assumption. That still doesn't help the fact that the effects of the Sun Song are COMPLETELY passive.Alakabamm said:
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It is. Several times it is referred to as omnipotent (Obviously hyperbole, but it does signify that the Triforce is the most powerful artifact in the Zeldaverse).Alakabamm said:
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Because passive abilities like that shouldn't be gauged in ANY way. If that were the case, we would have multi solar system level MLP McGuffins like the Elements of Harmony, which is such a huge outlier for the series and the items themselves it's ridiculous.Alakabamm said:
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@Homestuck Not sure if you even read the blog, but here goes:
- "Is Link able to move anything else with this ability? No."
Why does that even matter? He's moving the Earth, that is what is rotating. You're saying that this is illegitimate... because it lacks versatility in that regard?
- "Is he able to move the sun wherever he wants with it? No."
Again, it moves the Earth, not the Sun. And yes, he can play it whenever he pleases, so...?
- "It's passive because it can't be used for any harmful purposes, just changing the time of day in that area."
It's not changing the time of day in one area, it's changing the time of day everywhere. Do you not see the moon rotating through the sky when you play the song and look up? Causing a dawn to break over the horizon and the moon to set is not a localized event my any means, there's zero reason to think that.
It's a feat that isn't being used to attack something and therefore doesn't count? ...no. That's not how that works.
- "Even then, who scales to it? Link? Why, because he has the ToC?"
Yes, actually. Any one of the pieces of the Triforce, the Triforce of Power in particular, wield more power than anything that anyone before then was able to do, and Ganondorf wielded that sort of power in direct combat against Link, repeatedly. Do I really need to go over why just assuming that two random composers wield magic thousands of times stronger than the bona fide main villain in the series: that guy who wrecked a Light Force-amped Vaati without the Triforce and is established as quite nearly the strongest thing around in the verse, no less, what with wielding one third of the established most powerful artifact in the verse (Said third being specifically intended to give someone immense power): is silly beyond compare? Especially when it contradicts just about everything the lore says about how the world works?
- "Is Link able to move anything else with this ability? No."
Why does that even matter? He's moving the Earth, that is what is rotating. You're saying that this is illegitimate... because it lacks versatility in that regard?
- "Is he able to move the sun wherever he wants with it? No."
Again, it moves the Earth, not the Sun. And yes, he can play it whenever he pleases, so...?
- "It's passive because it can't be used for any harmful purposes, just changing the time of day in that area."
It's not changing the time of day in one area, it's changing the time of day everywhere. Do you not see the moon rotating through the sky when you play the song and look up? Causing a dawn to break over the horizon and the moon to set is not a localized event my any means, there's zero reason to think that.
It's a feat that isn't being used to attack something and therefore doesn't count? ...no. That's not how that works.
- "Even then, who scales to it? Link? Why, because he has the ToC?"
Yes, actually. Any one of the pieces of the Triforce, the Triforce of Power in particular, wield more power than anything that anyone before then was able to do, and Ganondorf wielded that sort of power in direct combat against Link, repeatedly. Do I really need to go over why just assuming that two random composers wield magic thousands of times stronger than the bona fide main villain in the series: that guy who wrecked a Light Force-amped Vaati without the Triforce and is established as quite nearly the strongest thing around in the verse, no less, what with wielding one third of the established most powerful artifact in the verse (Said third being specifically intended to give someone immense power): is silly beyond compare? Especially when it contradicts just about everything the lore says about how the world works?
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It is. Several times it is referred to as omnipotent (Obviously hyperbole, but it does signify that the Triforce is the most powerful artifact in the Zeldaverse).
That's the full triforce last I checked, NOT the single pieces, and simply dividing the DC of the full Triforce by 3 for each piece makes no sense, since the Triforce's DC is that high because of reality warping/a wish.
That's the full triforce last I checked, NOT the single pieces, and simply dividing the DC of the full Triforce by 3 for each piece makes no sense, since the Triforce's DC is that high because of reality warping/a wish.
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You mean a verse that runs primarily on Toon force and rule of funny, last I checked? That's a very different type of verse to handle in Vs Debates. Not sure if you noticed this, butHomestuckLover1 said:
A: I already pointed out why there's no reason to assume this to be an "outlier" in the blog. You did read it, right?
B: MLP and it's standing on Vs Pages has literally nothing to do with this, especially when the feats are not alike. If you think that's wrong, take that up on some other thread.
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@Homestuck Even one of the pieces can be used for a very large variety of effects. It's the main source of the Big Three (Link, Ganondorf, Zelda)'s power, in fact. They aren't even close to powerless individually.
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I have no means of recording my gameplay, and I'd rather not spend a large chunk of time looking over dozens of OoT walkthroughs to find an example of someone playing it in a Hyrule Castle Town or Kakariko Village. I assure you they immediately appear in their homes as soon as the song concludes
You do appear at the point of entry, but this seems more like something that can easily be chalked up to gameplay mechanics. Why would Link go to an area he needs to use the song, play it, leave the area, then come back to the same area? As for why enemies don't disappear after playing it, well it's likely because it would break the game and make combat pointless. IIRC there are some instances when playing it has no effect too, but I may be wrong on that
What we do know everything the Ocarina is capable of. It can warp Link and objects to different places, make it instantly rain, awaken/put people to sleep, summon people, and control time (among a few other things). Nothing else really says it has TK, so why is this suddenly the case for this song when we know it can warp space and time?
You may say the Song of Time makes any time travel through the Sun's Song redundant, and that's true...in Majora's Mask. It's why the song doesn't show up in that game. However, in OoT, which is where the Sun's Song appears, the Song of Time wasn't nearly as versitile as it would later become. In fact, it only was used to open the Door of Time and remove blocks in that game. The Sun's Song was Link's only real method of time travel via the Ocarina in OoT. In Majora's Mask, day and night can be freely traveled through with the Song if Time
You do appear at the point of entry, but this seems more like something that can easily be chalked up to gameplay mechanics. Why would Link go to an area he needs to use the song, play it, leave the area, then come back to the same area? As for why enemies don't disappear after playing it, well it's likely because it would break the game and make combat pointless. IIRC there are some instances when playing it has no effect too, but I may be wrong on that
What we do know everything the Ocarina is capable of. It can warp Link and objects to different places, make it instantly rain, awaken/put people to sleep, summon people, and control time (among a few other things). Nothing else really says it has TK, so why is this suddenly the case for this song when we know it can warp space and time?
You may say the Song of Time makes any time travel through the Sun's Song redundant, and that's true...in Majora's Mask. It's why the song doesn't show up in that game. However, in OoT, which is where the Sun's Song appears, the Song of Time wasn't nearly as versitile as it would later become. In fact, it only was used to open the Door of Time and remove blocks in that game. The Sun's Song was Link's only real method of time travel via the Ocarina in OoT. In Majora's Mask, day and night can be freely traveled through with the Song if Time
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@Perpetual 1. "Why does that even matter? He's moving the Earth, that is what is rotating. You're saying that this is illegitimate... because it lacks versatility in that regard?"
It's a specific ability that moves a specific item, the Earth. That's one point for passive ability.
2. "Again, it moves the Earth, not the Sun. And yes, he can play it whenever he pleases, so...? "
You don't seem to get that because he can't do anything with the song, except move the earth in one motion and nothing else. So not only is it an ability that has only one function, but you can't even do anything else with said function. Yet another piece of evidence pointing toward it being a passive ability.
3. "It's not changing the time of day in one area, it's changing the time of day everywhere. Do you not see the moon rotating through the sky when you play the song and look up?"
Sorry, when I said in that area, I was brainfarting a bit
"It's a feat that isn't being used to attack something and therefore doesn't count? ...no. That's not how that works."
It does one extremely specific function, that function can't even be used in multiple ways, and now we know it doesn't even cause any harm. That's pretty much a passive ability at this point.
4. "Yes, actually. Any one of the pieces of the Triforce, the Triforce of Power in particular, wield more power than anything that anyone before then was able to do"
I'd love the feats that prove this. What feats from the triforce wielders in that game prove they're superior to a planet flip? None, right?
"Do I really need to go over why just assuming that two random composers wield magic thousands of times stronger than the bona fide main villain in the series: that guy who wrecked a Light Force-amped Vaati without the Triforce and is established as quite nearly the strongest thing around in the verse, no less, what with wielding one third of the established most powerful artifact in the verse (Said third being specifically intended to give someone immense power): is silly beyond compare?"
Besides the fact that there are literally no feats to back this idea up, so you have to hang onto lore as a reasoning for your dear life? How about the fact the song has nothing to do with Ganon or the Triforce, not even in lore are they mentioned in the same sentence BTW, and yet you think they scale based on the fact that there are Outlierish statements calling the Triforce omnipotent, and as a result, it's somehow believed to be the most powerful item in the verse? Enough assumptions to feed the hungry, I'm sure.
"Especially when it contradicts just about everything the lore says about how the world works?"
See what I wrote above.
I certainly don't recall a specific statement calling the triforce the most powerful item in the verse. Saying it is because the god tiers of the verse made it isn't going to get you anywhere since there's still no feats to back it up. The triforce isn't even described as being a portion of their power, but a symbol of it. This scaling all relies on using outlier statements to make assumptions, when these statements are VAGUE implications at best.
It's a specific ability that moves a specific item, the Earth. That's one point for passive ability.
2. "Again, it moves the Earth, not the Sun. And yes, he can play it whenever he pleases, so...? "
You don't seem to get that because he can't do anything with the song, except move the earth in one motion and nothing else. So not only is it an ability that has only one function, but you can't even do anything else with said function. Yet another piece of evidence pointing toward it being a passive ability.
3. "It's not changing the time of day in one area, it's changing the time of day everywhere. Do you not see the moon rotating through the sky when you play the song and look up?"
Sorry, when I said in that area, I was brainfarting a bit
"It's a feat that isn't being used to attack something and therefore doesn't count? ...no. That's not how that works."
It does one extremely specific function, that function can't even be used in multiple ways, and now we know it doesn't even cause any harm. That's pretty much a passive ability at this point.
4. "Yes, actually. Any one of the pieces of the Triforce, the Triforce of Power in particular, wield more power than anything that anyone before then was able to do"
I'd love the feats that prove this. What feats from the triforce wielders in that game prove they're superior to a planet flip? None, right?
"Do I really need to go over why just assuming that two random composers wield magic thousands of times stronger than the bona fide main villain in the series: that guy who wrecked a Light Force-amped Vaati without the Triforce and is established as quite nearly the strongest thing around in the verse, no less, what with wielding one third of the established most powerful artifact in the verse (Said third being specifically intended to give someone immense power): is silly beyond compare?"
Besides the fact that there are literally no feats to back this idea up, so you have to hang onto lore as a reasoning for your dear life? How about the fact the song has nothing to do with Ganon or the Triforce, not even in lore are they mentioned in the same sentence BTW, and yet you think they scale based on the fact that there are Outlierish statements calling the Triforce omnipotent, and as a result, it's somehow believed to be the most powerful item in the verse? Enough assumptions to feed the hungry, I'm sure.
"Especially when it contradicts just about everything the lore says about how the world works?"
See what I wrote above.
I certainly don't recall a specific statement calling the triforce the most powerful item in the verse. Saying it is because the god tiers of the verse made it isn't going to get you anywhere since there's still no feats to back it up. The triforce isn't even described as being a portion of their power, but a symbol of it. This scaling all relies on using outlier statements to make assumptions, when these statements are VAGUE implications at best.
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I don't really think you are making any real point by calling it "passive." The energy required to turn the earth is massive. Even if it is restricted to that one function, the item itself has a monstrous amount of energy associated with it.
I don't know the first thing about scaling the triforce so I will stay out of that one but from what I saw there were some other contested planet level like feats and something about the moon being destroyed. There's certainly some extra stuff that agrees with planet level or so it seems.
I don't know the first thing about scaling the triforce so I will stay out of that one but from what I saw there were some other contested planet level like feats and something about the moon being destroyed. There's certainly some extra stuff that agrees with planet level or so it seems.
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And what's to assume the triforce can output similar energies other than being the strongest item in the verse based on an outlier statement with vague implications?Alakabamm said:
One is from a non canon game. I have no idea what this moon level one is. And the triforce is considered planet level based on wish hax, so nothing you can convert energy wise
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so the verdict is...
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Based on the evidence presented, it seems to clearly be nothing more than time manipulation. You play the song, time speeds up for Link.The great ZZ said:
Can confirm that when you play the song in Castle Town that everyone goes in doors. Easily prooves that it is time manipulation, EXACTLY the same as the Song of Double Time as Metabro said.
Not enough proof? Here's more, it also works in Kakariko Village...Yeah, whatever argument you might be able to think of ends here.
At the entrance to Kakariko village there is a guard. What does this guard do? Why, he tells you the exact time as it is in game. Let's say you enter the village in the middle of the day. The guard says; "Ding dong, ding dong! The current time is 13:20." I play the song again? It turns to night and the guard says; "Ding dong, ding dong! The current time is 0:00."
As for why the enemies don't move? Well, for the same reason they don't move when you pull out the Ocarina at any moment... an actual case of gameplay mechanics.
Do you require any further proof?
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Is this addressed to me Alakabamm?Alakabamm said:
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Gotcha. I was referencing Metabro's point. During the day, the majority of the people in Castle Town, or Kakariko village will hang around outside, in the open. Shopping, talking, whatever. During the night, pretty much all of them go indoors. When you play the song during the day, they will all be inside after the song has concluded, which they wouldn't do unless it was night.
Further proof that it is time manipulation really.
Further proof that it is time manipulation really.
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@Shad You ignored the part where I covered that in the blog I guess, so here, I'll explain it to you again:
"I mean, sure, in some areas playing the Sun's Song can cause the screen to fade white and for Link to go back where he entered the area from, but this is probably due to there not being a Sun in many of these areas' skies. There's also the fact that in areas like these, many characters' locations change, and them spontaneously blipping out of existance, along with the sky changing instantaneously, would look absolutely silly. It simply wasn't designed to be in the game.
Also, there's what is blatantly demonstrated on the screen that contradicts that."
Of course there are not logical, real-world consequences for this occurring. Do you honestly think that the game developers, when they thought up this song, went "Hey, why don't we add this song to the game and make it so that, whenever it's played and day changes to night, everyone everywhere starts mass panicking as the world begins to function contrary to how it should!! That'll be easy to program and not break the game at all!!" ...they didn't do that.
In short, you haven't presented any evidence that I didn't already shoot down before the argument began. Try again.
"I mean, sure, in some areas playing the Sun's Song can cause the screen to fade white and for Link to go back where he entered the area from, but this is probably due to there not being a Sun in many of these areas' skies. There's also the fact that in areas like these, many characters' locations change, and them spontaneously blipping out of existance, along with the sky changing instantaneously, would look absolutely silly. It simply wasn't designed to be in the game.
Also, there's what is blatantly demonstrated on the screen that contradicts that."
Of course there are not logical, real-world consequences for this occurring. Do you honestly think that the game developers, when they thought up this song, went "Hey, why don't we add this song to the game and make it so that, whenever it's played and day changes to night, everyone everywhere starts mass panicking as the world begins to function contrary to how it should!! That'll be easy to program and not break the game at all!!" ...they didn't do that.
In short, you haven't presented any evidence that I didn't already shoot down before the argument began. Try again.
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@Homestuck "It's a specific ability that moves a specific item, the Earth. That's one point for passive ability."
"You don't seem to get that because he can't do anything with the song, except move the earth in one motion and nothing else. So not only is it an ability that has only one function, but you can't even do anything else with said function. Yet another piece of evidence pointing toward it being a passive ability."
"It does one extremely specific function, that function can't even be used in multiple ways, and now we know it doesn't even cause any harm. That's pretty much a passive ability at this point."
Passive ability? ...The hell does that even mean? You're saying that, because it's not being used in a way that generates a big boom-boom or whatever it can't count for destructive capacity? Be right back, removing about half of all Vs Battles/OBD/etc. threads from all profiles everywhere, since clearly Sephiroth bringing a meteor crashing into the planet can't be used for anything but that.
Seriously, what is it with LoZ and non-combat feats? Abigail creates a portal and a bunch of clouds, people are fine with that. Saitama parts a bunch of clouds, people eat that right up. A FF7 character flips the planet, cool, 5-A FF. A Legend of Zelda character does the same? Oh noes.
You arbitrarily deciding it's a "passive ability" (and it's not passive even by your definition if it has to actively be played) doesn't mean anything. A display of power is still a display of power.
" I'd love the feats that prove this. What feats from the triforce wielders in that game prove they're superior to a planet flip? None, right?"
The fact that the game outright tells us that they're stronger, maybe? That this much is integral to the lore of the game for it to function at all? What the game and its creators say > your opinion.
"Besides the fact that there are literally no feats to back this idea up, so you have to hang onto lore as a reasoning for your dear life?"
How about, I don't know, the one I just presented that you still haven't properly addressed other than "lol it doesn't count because he didn't use it to kill something?" All you are hanging onto "for dear life" in this argument is the assertion that you are right because you say so. You still haven't bothered to do anything other than make statements, let alone address the feat other than compare it to My Little Pony.
"How about the fact the song has nothing to do with Ganon or the Triforce, not even in lore are they mentioned in the same sentence BTW, and yet you think they scale based on the fact that there are Outlierish statements calling the Triforce omnipotent, and as a result, it's somehow believed to be the most powerful item in the verse?"
If servants of the royal family are able to do this, then why the hell aren't people above them able to? Again, the Triforce is the end-all, be-all sacred relic of the world's canon proper, if the Sun's Song is so little compared to it then perhaps that, I don't know, makes clear how strong it is in comparison?
"Enough assumptions to feed the hungry, I'm sure."
You're the one making the assumptions, I'm using facts stated by the creators of the game. Again, what they say > what you think they should say.
"See what I wrote above."
I did.
Again, lore > your intolerance for the basic sort of powerscaling that is, always has been, and always will be ingrained into the Wiki's standards.
Did ChaosTheory not already tear this argument to confetti earlier?
"The triforce isn't even described as being a portion of their power, but a symbol of it. This scaling all relies on using outlier statements to make assumptions, when these statements are VAGUE implications at best."
"That when power, wisdom, and courage come together, the gods would have no choice but to come down... The power of the gods... The Triforce! He who touches it will have whatever he desires granted!" - Ganondorf
Actually, it's described as the power of the gods. And who says it cannot be both a symbol of the goddesses's actual, true power and a bit of it as well?
Finally, your assumption that each of the individual pieces of the Triforce are useless? Yeah, that's out the window, they're responsible for the great majority of the feats demonstrated in the entirety of the series. Without them, many of the characters would be substantially weaker... and still be able to beat Vaati, anyhow.
"You don't seem to get that because he can't do anything with the song, except move the earth in one motion and nothing else. So not only is it an ability that has only one function, but you can't even do anything else with said function. Yet another piece of evidence pointing toward it being a passive ability."
"It does one extremely specific function, that function can't even be used in multiple ways, and now we know it doesn't even cause any harm. That's pretty much a passive ability at this point."
Passive ability? ...The hell does that even mean? You're saying that, because it's not being used in a way that generates a big boom-boom or whatever it can't count for destructive capacity? Be right back, removing about half of all Vs Battles/OBD/etc. threads from all profiles everywhere, since clearly Sephiroth bringing a meteor crashing into the planet can't be used for anything but that.
Seriously, what is it with LoZ and non-combat feats? Abigail creates a portal and a bunch of clouds, people are fine with that. Saitama parts a bunch of clouds, people eat that right up. A FF7 character flips the planet, cool, 5-A FF. A Legend of Zelda character does the same? Oh noes.
You arbitrarily deciding it's a "passive ability" (and it's not passive even by your definition if it has to actively be played) doesn't mean anything. A display of power is still a display of power.
" I'd love the feats that prove this. What feats from the triforce wielders in that game prove they're superior to a planet flip? None, right?"
The fact that the game outright tells us that they're stronger, maybe? That this much is integral to the lore of the game for it to function at all? What the game and its creators say > your opinion.
"Besides the fact that there are literally no feats to back this idea up, so you have to hang onto lore as a reasoning for your dear life?"
How about, I don't know, the one I just presented that you still haven't properly addressed other than "lol it doesn't count because he didn't use it to kill something?" All you are hanging onto "for dear life" in this argument is the assertion that you are right because you say so. You still haven't bothered to do anything other than make statements, let alone address the feat other than compare it to My Little Pony.
"How about the fact the song has nothing to do with Ganon or the Triforce, not even in lore are they mentioned in the same sentence BTW, and yet you think they scale based on the fact that there are Outlierish statements calling the Triforce omnipotent, and as a result, it's somehow believed to be the most powerful item in the verse?"
If servants of the royal family are able to do this, then why the hell aren't people above them able to? Again, the Triforce is the end-all, be-all sacred relic of the world's canon proper, if the Sun's Song is so little compared to it then perhaps that, I don't know, makes clear how strong it is in comparison?
"Enough assumptions to feed the hungry, I'm sure."
You're the one making the assumptions, I'm using facts stated by the creators of the game. Again, what they say > what you think they should say.
"See what I wrote above."
I did.
Again, lore > your intolerance for the basic sort of powerscaling that is, always has been, and always will be ingrained into the Wiki's standards.
Did ChaosTheory not already tear this argument to confetti earlier?
"The triforce isn't even described as being a portion of their power, but a symbol of it. This scaling all relies on using outlier statements to make assumptions, when these statements are VAGUE implications at best."
"That when power, wisdom, and courage come together, the gods would have no choice but to come down... The power of the gods... The Triforce! He who touches it will have whatever he desires granted!" - Ganondorf
Actually, it's described as the power of the gods. And who says it cannot be both a symbol of the goddesses's actual, true power and a bit of it as well?
Finally, your assumption that each of the individual pieces of the Triforce are useless? Yeah, that's out the window, they're responsible for the great majority of the feats demonstrated in the entirety of the series. Without them, many of the characters would be substantially weaker... and still be able to beat Vaati, anyhow.
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You haven't actually debunked anything, just repeated your own theory. I provided further examples of it being time manipulation upon what Metabro already showed.
At this point you are blatantly refusing to address the arguments and evidence provided, and chalking it entirely up to "well the developers couldn't program it, therefore it is logically a planet flip".
I can put it no simpler than this. Link plays the Sun's Song. Time massively accelarates around him, stopping at 12:00 or 00:00. This is why when you play the song during the day, and it stops at 0:00, everyone is in their houses, and vice verse. It's also backed up by that guard telling you the exact time.
Please actually adress the arguments that have been made, instead of pretending that you have, thank you.
At this point you are blatantly refusing to address the arguments and evidence provided, and chalking it entirely up to "well the developers couldn't program it, therefore it is logically a planet flip".
I can put it no simpler than this. Link plays the Sun's Song. Time massively accelarates around him, stopping at 12:00 or 00:00. This is why when you play the song during the day, and it stops at 0:00, everyone is in their houses, and vice verse. It's also backed up by that guard telling you the exact time.
Please actually adress the arguments that have been made, instead of pretending that you have, thank you.
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"Seriously, what is it with LoZ and non-combat feats? Abigail creates a portal and a bunch of clouds, people are fine with that. Saitama parts a bunch of clouds, people eat that right up. A FF7 character flips the planet, cool, 5-A FF. A Legend of Zelda character does the same? Oh noes."
We are not discussing these verses in this thread last I checked, could you please stay on topic if that is okay? Stops the thread getting derailed, and besides, those comparisons are nothing to do with this.
"The fact that the game outright tells us that they're stronger, maybe? That this much is integral to the lore of the game for it to function at all? What the game and its creators say > your opinion."
You are using hyperbole as evidence. The games, at NO point specify that single pieces of the Triforce are as powerful as the full thing.
"You're the one making the assumptions, I'm using facts stated by the creators of the game. Again, what they say > what you think they should say."
Where are they saying that this is a planetary flip in this case? Absense of Author is used in VS debating anyway, surely you know this, you seem quite experienced.
"Actually, it's described as the power of the gods. And who says it cannot be both a symbol of the goddesses's actual, true power and a bit of it as well?"
It is a symbol. A symbol of their power =/= their actual power. Assumptions, and a baseless one at that. I have addressed this in the other thread.
"Finally, your assumption that each of the individual pieces of the Triforce are useless? Yeah, that's out the window, they're responsible for the great majority of the feats demonstrated in the entirety of the series. Without them, many of the characters would be substantially weaker... and still be able to beat Vaati, anyhow."
You are not providing valid sourced links. That link that you DID provide, has no references and doesn't even seem to prove what it is you're trying to push. I have debunked this in the other thread. The individual pieces are not magically as strong as you want them to be. They are as strong as they have feats showing. City-island.
We are not discussing these verses in this thread last I checked, could you please stay on topic if that is okay? Stops the thread getting derailed, and besides, those comparisons are nothing to do with this.
"The fact that the game outright tells us that they're stronger, maybe? That this much is integral to the lore of the game for it to function at all? What the game and its creators say > your opinion."
You are using hyperbole as evidence. The games, at NO point specify that single pieces of the Triforce are as powerful as the full thing.
"You're the one making the assumptions, I'm using facts stated by the creators of the game. Again, what they say > what you think they should say."
Where are they saying that this is a planetary flip in this case? Absense of Author is used in VS debating anyway, surely you know this, you seem quite experienced.
"Actually, it's described as the power of the gods. And who says it cannot be both a symbol of the goddesses's actual, true power and a bit of it as well?"
It is a symbol. A symbol of their power =/= their actual power. Assumptions, and a baseless one at that. I have addressed this in the other thread.
"Finally, your assumption that each of the individual pieces of the Triforce are useless? Yeah, that's out the window, they're responsible for the great majority of the feats demonstrated in the entirety of the series. Without them, many of the characters would be substantially weaker... and still be able to beat Vaati, anyhow."
You are not providing valid sourced links. That link that you DID provide, has no references and doesn't even seem to prove what it is you're trying to push. I have debunked this in the other thread. The individual pieces are not magically as strong as you want them to be. They are as strong as they have feats showing. City-island.
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@Perpetual 1. "Passive ability? ...What does that mean? You're saying that, because it's not being used in a way that generates a big boom-boom or whatever it can't count for destructive capacity? Be right back, removing about half of all Vs Battles/OBD/etc. threads from all profiles everywhere, since clearly Sephiroth bringing a meteor crashing into the planet can't be used for anything but that."
Lol, except Sephiroth summons a meteor that actually does something damaging. That "planet spin" is only being used to change the time of day.
"Seriously, what is it with LoZ and non-combat feats? Abigail creates a portal and a bunch of clouds, people are fine with that. Saitama parts a bunch of clouds, people eat that right up. A FF7 character flips the planet, cool, 5-A FF. A Legend of Zelda character does the same? Oh noes."
I'm not talking about those verses right now, and don't care for them in this case. I purely brought up MLP because it's pretty much the same case and yet I don't see MLP fans going around parading Multi Solar System MLP. Believe me, I learned that the hard way.
2. "The fact that the game outright tells us that they're stronger, maybe? That this much is integral to the lore of the game for it to function at all? What the game and its creators say > your opinion."
By "outright tells us", you mean a hyperbolistic statement calling the triforce omnipotent that gives vague implications, and even then you'd have to assume again that you can convert DC between the full triforce and its incomplete pieces, despite the fact the full triforce is even planet level is through a WISH? And you say creators, but I don't recall a statement from Aonuma saying the triforce is superior to all of the OoT's songs.
3. "How about, I don't know, the one I just presented that you still haven't properly addressed other than "lol it doesn't count because he didn't use it to kill something?"
I still stand by my verdict of it being passive (if it even is a real planet flip, since you seem to have been ignoring the arguments toward it being time manipulation) since it isn't used for ANYTHING except changing the time of day.
"All you are hanging onto "for dear life" in this argument is the assertion that you are right because you say so."
No. I know I'm right because you hang onto hyperbolistic statements and wonky scaling from wishes.
"You still haven't bothered to do anything other than make statements, let alone address the feat other than compare it to My Little Pony."
Pffft. You responding to and having to argue with me says otherwise. And like I said before, I compared the situation to MLP, because they remain pretty much the same. MLP fans couldn't get away with it and neither should you, just because of vague hyperboles and energy conversion for wishes.
4. "If servants of the royal family are able to do this, then why the hell aren't people above them able to?"
How about because they did this with an instrument that has a passive ability of simply changing the time of day?
"Again, the Triforce is the end-all, be-all sacred relic of the world's canon proper, if the Sun's Song is so little compared to it then perhaps that, I don't know, makes clear how strong it is in comparison?"
And because you think it's the end all, be all, everything scales to it, even if the feats are far above what the pieces of the triforce alone are shown to do?
Also, saying that because the song is little compared to the triforce that it's above it is moot, because it's also never compared to Tingle, so I guess he's large planet level huh?
"I'm using facts stated by the creators of the game"
LOL, again, where is this creator statement that confirms that a piece of the triforce is comparable to the full thing, an author statement that compares the Sun Song to the Triforce, and while you're at it, a statement that calls the sun song a planet flip?
"basic sort of powerscaling"
....no it isn't. You're scaling the DC of the three individual triforce pieces to the full item, which is only planet level through wish granting. You're also scaling the individual triforce pieces to EVERYTHING that has feats above it in the verse, because the Full Triforce is the strongest thing in the verse, because of a vague implication from a hyperbole.
"That when power, wisdom, and courage come together, the gods would have no choice but to come down... The power of the gods... The Triforce! He who touches it will have whatever he desires granted!" - Ganondorf
And Ganondorf is the all knowing now? I'm pretty sure he isn't always right, and even then you still can't compare a single piece of the triforce to the whole triforce, because it's only planet level through wish granting. How does one do energy conversion for wish granting? They don't.
"Finally, your assumption that each of the individual pieces of the Triforce are useless?"
Now I'm legit wondering if you're joking here, because you're putting words into my mouth. NOWHERE have I said that the individual pieces of the triforce are useless. You accusing me of that, not only shows you're grasping straws, but are just being dishonest.
Lol, except Sephiroth summons a meteor that actually does something damaging. That "planet spin" is only being used to change the time of day.
"Seriously, what is it with LoZ and non-combat feats? Abigail creates a portal and a bunch of clouds, people are fine with that. Saitama parts a bunch of clouds, people eat that right up. A FF7 character flips the planet, cool, 5-A FF. A Legend of Zelda character does the same? Oh noes."
I'm not talking about those verses right now, and don't care for them in this case. I purely brought up MLP because it's pretty much the same case and yet I don't see MLP fans going around parading Multi Solar System MLP. Believe me, I learned that the hard way.
2. "The fact that the game outright tells us that they're stronger, maybe? That this much is integral to the lore of the game for it to function at all? What the game and its creators say > your opinion."
By "outright tells us", you mean a hyperbolistic statement calling the triforce omnipotent that gives vague implications, and even then you'd have to assume again that you can convert DC between the full triforce and its incomplete pieces, despite the fact the full triforce is even planet level is through a WISH? And you say creators, but I don't recall a statement from Aonuma saying the triforce is superior to all of the OoT's songs.
3. "How about, I don't know, the one I just presented that you still haven't properly addressed other than "lol it doesn't count because he didn't use it to kill something?"
I still stand by my verdict of it being passive (if it even is a real planet flip, since you seem to have been ignoring the arguments toward it being time manipulation) since it isn't used for ANYTHING except changing the time of day.
"All you are hanging onto "for dear life" in this argument is the assertion that you are right because you say so."
No. I know I'm right because you hang onto hyperbolistic statements and wonky scaling from wishes.
"You still haven't bothered to do anything other than make statements, let alone address the feat other than compare it to My Little Pony."
Pffft. You responding to and having to argue with me says otherwise. And like I said before, I compared the situation to MLP, because they remain pretty much the same. MLP fans couldn't get away with it and neither should you, just because of vague hyperboles and energy conversion for wishes.
4. "If servants of the royal family are able to do this, then why the hell aren't people above them able to?"
How about because they did this with an instrument that has a passive ability of simply changing the time of day?
"Again, the Triforce is the end-all, be-all sacred relic of the world's canon proper, if the Sun's Song is so little compared to it then perhaps that, I don't know, makes clear how strong it is in comparison?"
And because you think it's the end all, be all, everything scales to it, even if the feats are far above what the pieces of the triforce alone are shown to do?
Also, saying that because the song is little compared to the triforce that it's above it is moot, because it's also never compared to Tingle, so I guess he's large planet level huh?
"I'm using facts stated by the creators of the game"
LOL, again, where is this creator statement that confirms that a piece of the triforce is comparable to the full thing, an author statement that compares the Sun Song to the Triforce, and while you're at it, a statement that calls the sun song a planet flip?
"basic sort of powerscaling"
....no it isn't. You're scaling the DC of the three individual triforce pieces to the full item, which is only planet level through wish granting. You're also scaling the individual triforce pieces to EVERYTHING that has feats above it in the verse, because the Full Triforce is the strongest thing in the verse, because of a vague implication from a hyperbole.
"That when power, wisdom, and courage come together, the gods would have no choice but to come down... The power of the gods... The Triforce! He who touches it will have whatever he desires granted!" - Ganondorf
And Ganondorf is the all knowing now? I'm pretty sure he isn't always right, and even then you still can't compare a single piece of the triforce to the whole triforce, because it's only planet level through wish granting. How does one do energy conversion for wish granting? They don't.
"Finally, your assumption that each of the individual pieces of the Triforce are useless?"
Now I'm legit wondering if you're joking here, because you're putting words into my mouth. NOWHERE have I said that the individual pieces of the triforce are useless. You accusing me of that, not only shows you're grasping straws, but are just being dishonest.
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Hey just a quick update. I found a quote from the Composer Brothers.
"We brothers also served the Royal Family, and were assigned to study the hereditary mystic powers of the family. Though we never could figure out the power of the Triforce, we had almost completed our study of controlling time with the tones of ocarinas. Uh, I mean... Actually, we did complete that study!" — Composer Brothers (Ocarina of Time)
Video link too, so you shouldn't need anymore proof. Please note you may need to slow down vid as they skip over the dialogue. The relevant dialogue is even highlighted red actually, I'm shocked this wasn't noticed whilst researching the "feat".
Point proven. Requesting for thread to be locked as entire basis for "feat" has been debunked. Thank you.
"We brothers also served the Royal Family, and were assigned to study the hereditary mystic powers of the family. Though we never could figure out the power of the Triforce, we had almost completed our study of controlling time with the tones of ocarinas. Uh, I mean... Actually, we did complete that study!" — Composer Brothers (Ocarina of Time)
Video link too, so you shouldn't need anymore proof. Please note you may need to slow down vid as they skip over the dialogue. The relevant dialogue is even highlighted red actually, I'm shocked this wasn't noticed whilst researching the "feat".
Point proven. Requesting for thread to be locked as entire basis for "feat" has been debunked. Thank you.
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