Koji Komatsu VS The Lizard Wizard — Battle for Strongest Low 7-B

[Phoenks]

Koji Komatsu VS The Lizard Wizard

Theme of the Battle:



Versions Used: Athanatos Sign Koji and base Lizard Wizard

Conditions: Speed is equalized and SBA is assumed. The starting position is somewhere familiar to Koji.

Votes:

• Koji Komatsu: -
• The Lizard Wizard: -
• Inconclusive: -

 

[Phoenks]

Okay, so right off the bat, Koji gets a huge boost to all of his statistics:

• 135% speed for being in unfamiliar territory (New York City)
• x3 boost to all stats the moment he holds a sword.
• 50% boost to all stats from Dragon ranking in the species hierarchy.
• 25% boost to all stats from Dragon physiology because Koji is arrogant.

All of these are stacked on top of each other, rather than being linearly added together.

So off the bat Koji would have a 13.21875x (1 x 2.35 x 3 x 1.5 x 1.25) speed advantage and his AP would go from 1.34 Megatons to 7.5375 Megatons.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Where do these boosts come from they seem random

 

[Phoenks]

Where do these boosts come from they seem random

World mechanics.

 

[DMUA]

7.5375 Megatons.

This is City level. I think that may be counterproductive to determining a Low 7-B placement.

50% boost to all stats from Dragon ranking in the species hierarchy.

That said, I may disagree with this particular one? As I mentioned on discord trying to classify a Trigger as a species is deliberately extremely strange- they exist on any given plane (or Layer, in universe) and thus intersect with Humans, Demons, creatures lying in spaces between dimensions and are emissaries of other beings lying in the Energy Layer, but they don't really follow any single set of rules, most prominently of Biology (thus letting them shrug off whatever doesn't hit every layer and generally being fine with stuff like being reduced to a skeleton and healing from that overtime)

Either way, the Lizard Wizard certainly isn't hurting for being high end on the scale, considering he fought The Wife Beaters after their fight at Din, where they escalated in power significantly from 3.945949998273842 Megatons.

I also don't really get speed equal here, unequal are the primary conditions for the strongest thread and it's basically dead even when accounting for all stuff

Either way, in terms of things beyond AP and the last gateway to the fun, the opening hax;

His main thing is cutting and affecting souls, which in Ark are Type 1 Concept, Type 2 Information, and all mental related aspects, which exists in a separate plane of reality.

The Lizard Wizard resists all of this, since Gashes inherently destroy everything up to the conceptual and something like Sequence Deviation is something he could handle just fine

His astral (soul) weapons can also imbue his mana into people (Soul alike), which he can use to make people spontaneously explode by turning them into a metaphysical bomb (Like Killer Queen from Jojo), he can also corrupt them into husks.

Basically everyone in the Homewreckers can resist Warrane Ambre invoking the same on them (though they often get overwhelmed just because the guy can jack up the power so easily by the mechanics of his abilities, but we do see Blur pull it off against the baseline, which is someone exploding all the same)

Corruption's a little nebulous, but stuff like Penelope's property inducement and all manner of physical warping are something Triggers can live through, and the Lizard Wizard can heal at extreme speeds to a Low Godly extent for both of these

He can also manipulate causality in order to attack someone as if they never developed all of their skills across history. For example, he can hit someone as if they have the stats from when they were a baby, ignoring pretty much everything about them.

Admittedly I never properly slotted this onto the page and I'd have to dig it up to properly have the scan at the ready in Imgur, but we have seen Triggers can "right" their personal timelines against a Random Event that ended up invoking different eras of time onto whoever it hit, and given Xander was both a lot weaker and didn't have Power Defense, the Lizard Wizard could probably just bar it from happening in the first place

Now for the actual fun bit. Lizard Wizard and Koji are barred from actually getting off one-shots for a lot of reasons, so...

The actual fight part of this battle​

The Lizard Wizard just has a very high range of options, and he's bound to whip out whatever he thinks is useful. And considering tier restrictions only really bar him from (or at least, I think, I may be confused about the exact rules here) using the Tungsten Colossus, the Gash Basilisk and maybe the Chimera, that's a lot of painful stuff to throw out. The thing that made him really dangerous is just action economy, he can pull out creatures very easily and amass a horde as he uses his own body to attack an enemy alongside them.

Something I didn't mention in terms of "he's a hax wall so good luck not instantly dying" for getting him into the Low 7-B placement is the fact he's a Bleed Elementite. What this means is that almost every ability he has specializes in ensangunating targets- it's not much, until you realize this is something that works on Triggers, and despite their innate regeneration, and also degraded at their Energy supplies. Heck, Xander having Rapid Regen and equating to the Lizard Wizard didn't stop him from having issues with recovering, and he basically had to totally circumvent it with Elena's Time Capsule (item that lets him revert temporally to heal all kinds of damage).

Considering Triggers also have extreme stamina on top of that, even the endurance of Koji might have a timer get placed on it every time he gets a move like that off. And considering he's unpredictable/skilled enough to land shots on Xander Phoenix despite his own capabilities with precognition through analyzing numbers, those hits are liable to land as well.

So I guess, beyond the sheer versatility, big move after big move firing off, the main thing here comes down to who actually lasts. The Lizard Wizard's resilience against regeneration negation (and Koji's lack of it, as far as I can discern) alongside just healing really fast and having the stamina to back that up when it wears down, and Polywanagonaland serving as a Phase 2 where even Triggers can't really directly hurt him (and he actively gains Energy from the blood of opponents, and he gains access to Loyalty where he can just teleport a swarm of Gash ants into enemies to inflict a bleed that negates Mid Godly)...

 

[Phoenks]

This is City level. I think that may be counterproductive to determining a Low 7-B placement.

Amps that increase the base tier beyond that point are allowed in threads like these, even on main site.

That said, I may disagree with this particular one? As I mentioned on discord trying to classify a Trigger as a species is deliberately extremely strange- they exist on any given plane (or Layer, in universe) and thus intersect with Humans, Demons, creatures lying in spaces between dimensions and are emissaries of other beings lying in the Energy Layer, but they don't really follow any single set of rules, most prominently of Biology (thus letting them shrug off whatever doesn't hit every layer and generally being fine with stuff like being reduced to a skeleton and healing from that overtime)

Thing is everyone in Ark kinda inherently exists on levels like this so they aren't really unique in that regard. They'd be like normal humans.

I don't really think that 50% matters much though.

I also don't really get speed equal here, unequal are the primary conditions for the strongest thread and it's basically dead even when accounting for all stuff

Speed is always equalized in strongest threads though. With the only caveat being that someone can tie a placement if they only beat someone through speed.

The Lizard Wizard resists all of this, since Gashes inherently destroy everything up to the conceptual and something like Sequence Deviation is something he could handle just fine

How many layers? Koji's can bypass 3 layers of resistance to soul hax. It's a trait he gets from having 3 souls inside his sword.

Basically everyone in the Homewreckers can resist Warrane Ambre invoking the same on them (though they often get overwhelmed just because the guy can jack up the power so easily by the mechanics of his abilities, but we do see Blur pull it off against the baseline, which is someone exploding all the same)

Corruption's a little nebulous, but stuff like Penelope's property inducement and all manner of physical warping are something Triggers can live through, and the Lizard Wizard can heal at extreme speeds to a Low Godly extent for both of these

3 layers + corruption affects the soul/mind/concept etc as well so Low-Godly isn't gonna really do much lol.

Admittedly I never properly slotted this onto the page and I'd have to dig it up to properly have the scan at the ready in Imgur, but we have seen Triggers can "right" their personal timelines against a Random Event that ended up invoking different eras of time onto whoever it hit, and given Xander was both a lot weaker and didn't have Power Defense, the Lizard Wizard could probably just bar it from happening in the first place

I don't even know how these things are at all similar.

"invoking different eras of time" onto someone, and "hitting someone as though none of their history ever happened," seem to be very different things.

Kinda confused on this.

The Lizard Wizard just has a very high range of options, and he's bound to whip out whatever he thinks is useful. And considering tier restrictions only really bar him from (or at least, I think, I may be confused about the exact rules here) using the Tungsten Colossus, the Gash Basilisk and maybe the Chimera, that's a lot of painful stuff to throw out. The thing that made him really dangerous is just action economy, he can pull out creatures very easily and amass a horde as he uses his own body to attack an enemy alongside them.

Hoards of enemies probably aren't that useful since Koji can duplicate multiple times and also has explosive abilities that can span kilometers and target souls.

Nine Circles, for example, can turn every target within 15-kilometers into one of his bomb things. It also negates durability while simultaneously being an explosion that hits with 2235% more power than his current stat.

Something I didn't mention in terms of "he's a hax wall so good luck not instantly dying" for getting him into the Low 7-B placement is the fact he's a Bleed Elementite. What this means is that almost every ability he has specializes in ensangunating targets- it's not much, until you realize this is something that works on Triggers, and despite their innate regeneration, and also degraded at their Energy supplies. Heck, Xander having Rapid Regen and equating to the Lizard Wizard didn't stop him from having issues with recovering, and he basically had to totally circumvent it with Elena's Time Capsule (item that lets him revert temporally to heal all kinds of damage).

Arkanes resist blood manipulation?

Considering Triggers also have extreme stamina on top of that, even the endurance of Koji might have a timer get placed on it every time he gets a move like that off. And considering he's unpredictable/skilled enough to land shots on Xander Phoenix despite his own capabilities with precognition through analyzing numbers, those hits are liable to land as well.

Koji's got the stamina to spend days in a pocket dimension where he is being constantly drained of energy. He can also keep moving while impaled through the chest and abdomen by multiple spears, which should have killed him. (Type 2 immortality)

Koji's got some absurd skill stuff I can bring up as well. At a baseline he can perfectly predict trajectories and movements to the point of being able to replicate them in real time. He also has photographic memory which allows him to quickly memorize techniques and styles used against him.

This is without mentioning his multiple clones.

So I guess, beyond the sheer versatility, big move after big move firing off, the main thing here comes down to who actually lasts. The Lizard Wizard's resilience against regeneration negation (and Koji's lack of it, as far as I can discern) alongside just healing really fast and having the stamina to back that up when it wears down, and Polywanagonaland serving as a Phase 2 where even Triggers can't really directly hurt him (and he actively gains Energy from the blood of opponents, and he gains access to Loyalty where he can just teleport a swarm of Gash ants into enemies to inflict a bleed that negates Mid Godly)...

Well, unless he has many-layered soul resistance even one hit from Koji's blade could be deadly.


I shall wait for that main concern to be addressed.

 

[DMUA]

Amps that increase the base tier beyond that point are allowed in threads like these, even on main site.

Just a strange ruling to make for something specifically tied to the tiers someone is in, when Tier jumps are the one thing you're allowed to restrict (Outside of optional equipment and the likes)

Thing is everyone in Ark kinda inherently exists on levels like this so they aren't really unique in that regard. They'd be like normal humans.

Well like, aren't there characters who don't inherently hit the soul or mind? Triggers have to actively hold themselves back from hitting the soul or mind in order to incapacitate folks, just because they have full on bodies there, not just mental/spiritual cores

Speed is always equalized in strongest threads though. With the only caveat being that someone can tie a placement if they only beat someone through speed.

Guess something made me perceive the opposite

How many layers? Koji's can bypass 3 layers of resistance to soul hax. It's a trait he gets from having 3 souls inside his sword.

oh boy how fun layers

In case that doesn't indicate anything, I really just don't have interest in keeping track of this. The way we define it is a little nebulous and leads to things like Lobotomy Corporation having 26 layers of mindhax somehow, but let's take a shot at it

1. Shown by their violation of the rules of Biology, hitting them on a single layer doesn't really affect them significantly, with the spiritual layers being one of these
2. Frozen Mind gives an overt immunity to mental and spiritual manipulation, this doesn't help them avoid damage to those layers in fights with other Triggers
3. Gashes are a total annihilation of anything and everything, people who aren't attuned to the Energy Layer have a lot of trouble with damage on this scale, even if just standing in a Gash (Which causes normal humans to just vanish) is something they're attuned to. The Lizard Wizard is the best at this, short of the Worlds, exceeding every other Tower and Pawn

From there if one were to go the Lobotomy Corporation route, there are a bunch of distinct jumps in potency I can think of between the tier splits. There's also Power Defense boosting his resilience pretty notably from that jumping off point

3 layers + corruption affects the soul/mind/concept etc as well so Low-Godly isn't gonna really do much lol.

I have to emphasize the guy can regenerate pounds of flesh in heartbeats despite being hit with spiritual damage (which is regeneration negation, in Valhalla), he's certainly got a shot at fighting it off, especially if he pulls additional tricks to shake it off (namely, the corruption is a thing, and standing in a Red Gash totally annihilates anything and everything)

I don't even know how these things are at all similar.

"invoking different eras of time" onto someone, and "hitting someone as though none of their history ever happened," seem to be very different things.

If the event happening, in this case being brought to a prior point in history, is not supposed to be there, a Trigger can just tell it to go away. More prominently, inflicting this effect in the first place procced a Resistance roll, and The Lizard Wizard significantly beats out Warrane and Xander in this regard by just strength and Power Defense

Hoards of enemies probably aren't that useful since Koji can duplicate multiple times and also has explosive abilities that can span kilometers and target souls.

Nine Circles, for example, can turn every target within 15-kilometers into one of his bomb things. It also negates durability while simultaneously being an explosion that hits with 2235% more power than his current stat.

And all of those enemies are also resilient to the same stuff the Lizard Wizard is, with some of them not possessing a soul at all on account of being made from Red Gash. A lot of his stuff is also huge AOE, most notably Murder of the Universe being omnidirectional EE with Resistance Negation attached, FAMINEPULSE wiping out a 1 kilometer range (Which does prove a threat for Triggers, of course), Iron Lung creating a huge cone of flame that messes with the laws of atomic trajectory, the works (And at that, some of these have a chance or guarantee to cause Random Events, wide scale devastation through physics warping that has it's own tabber from the potential for things to get lethal). Warrane couldn't really pull his tricks to wipe them out en mass, Nine Circles is going to have issues too.

Arkanes resist blood manipulation?

And Triggers resist that kind of thing as well given it's apart of manipulating biology, it just doesn't stop it from being a concern with how hard he specializes in it (Especially since Butcher of Streets tried the same sort of tricks and basically got walled by Silas and Xander's Regeneration potency, which didn't quite happen when they were healing even faster against the Lizard Wizard)

Koji's got the stamina to spend days in a pocket dimension where he is being constantly drained of energy. He can also keep moving while impaled through the chest and abdomen by multiple spears, which should have killed him. (Type 2 immortality)

It's a factor, more than something to just win. Keep in mind the trick works against people who can endure even worse and regenerate through it, the latter of which Koji won't have the luxury of given the regeneration negation.

Koji's got some absurd skill stuff I can bring up as well. At a baseline he can perfectly predict trajectories and movements to the point of being able to replicate them in real time.

Xander can do this very thing, but The Lizard Wizard could still land solid shots (Most notably with Pigs On The Wings, where even Xander managing to get out of the way meant he got serrated by the resulting Red Gash)

 

[Froggytron]

Following

 

[Phoenks]

Well like, aren't there characters who don't inherently hit the soul or mind? Triggers have to actively hold themselves back from hitting the soul or mind in order to incapacitate folks, just because they have full on bodies there, not just mental/spiritual cores

I just meant the bit about "existing across every layer simultaneously." That part isn't really unique in Ark. I don't really care about the 50% thing though. It doesn't make much difference.

In case that doesn't indicate anything, I really just don't have interest in keeping track of this. The way we define it is a little nebulous and leads to things like Lobotomy Corporation having 26 layers of mindhax somehow, but let's take a shot at it

1. Shown by their violation of the rules of Biology, hitting them on a single layer doesn't really affect them significantly, with the spiritual layers being one of these
2. Frozen Mind gives an overt immunity to mental and spiritual manipulation, this doesn't help them avoid damage to those layers in fights with other Triggers
3. Gashes are a total annihilation of anything and everything, people who aren't attuned to the Energy Layer have a lot of trouble with damage on this scale, even if just standing in a Gash (Which causes normal humans to just vanish) is something they're attuned to. The Lizard Wizard is the best at this, short of the Worlds, exceeding every other Tower and Pawn

Well as I said on discord I don't really understand how a lot of this contributes.

To make this more simple, do they resist 3 layers of Type 1 conceptual manipulation and Type 2 Information Manipulation? This is really the only part that matters.

The only conceptual manipulation resistance I see there is the Gash thing. Also, do triggers even have information resistances in the first place?

I have to emphasize the guy can regenerate pounds of flesh in heartbeats despite being hit with spiritual damage (which is regeneration negation, in Valhalla), he's certainly got a shot at fighting it off, especially if he pulls additional tricks to shake it off (namely, the corruption is a thing, and standing in a Red Gash totally annihilates anything and everything)

I don't think soul corruption (targeting info, concept, etc) that is something you can simply overcome via low-godly regeneration. I mean, for one, there is still that lack of Info Type 2, which is pretty important lol.

If the event happening, in this case being brought to a prior point in history, is not supposed to be there, a Trigger can just tell it to go away. More prominently, inflicting this effect in the first place procced a Resistance roll, and The Lizard Wizard significantly beats out Warrane and Xander in this regard by just strength and Power Defense

This seems to be reactionary? Like X does time manip and then Trigger cancels it out? If Koji does his thing there won't really be time for the Trigger to cancel it out.

And all of those enemies are also resilient to the same stuff the Lizard Wizard is, with some of them not possessing a soul at all on account of being made from Red Gash. A lot of his stuff is also huge AOE, most notably Murder of the Universe being omnidirectional EE with Resistance Negation attached, FAMINEPULSE wiping out a 1 kilometer range (Which does prove a threat for Triggers, of course), Iron Lung creating a huge cone of flame that messes with the laws of atomic trajectory, the works (And at that, some of these have a chance or guarantee to cause Random Events, wide scale devastation through physics warping that has it's own tabber from the potential for things to get lethal). Warrane couldn't really pull his tricks to wipe them out en mass, Nine Circles is going to have issues too.

I mean, fair enough. There will likely be a lot of bullshit being thrown around.

Though just remember things that "one-shot" get nullified / Koji is unaffected by it (Invulnerability). This has included things like Void Manipulation that can erase souls before.

It's a factor, more than something to just win. Keep in mind the trick works against people who can endure even worse and regenerate through it, the latter of which Koji won't have the luxury of given the regeneration negation.

That's fair.

Xander can do this very thing, but The Lizard Wizard could still land solid shots (Most notably with Pigs On The Wings, where even Xander managing to get out of the way meant he got serrated by the resulting Red Gash)

That's fair. Though I'd rather this not turn into skill debate thing, since it's kinda annoying and honestly probably not really relevant.

 

[DMUA]

To make this more simple, do they resist 3 layers of Type 1 conceptual manipulation and Type 2 Information Manipulation? This is really the only part that matters.

I suppose not without Lob Corping it, though I also don't understand why having extra souls in a weapon makes it automatically layered (our official guidelines on that specifies an ability being stronger doesn't mean it's properly layered)

I don't think soul corruption (targeting info, concept, etc) that is something you can simply overcome via low-godly regeneration.

Triggers don't just regenerate on the physical layer, they regenerate everywhere. Their minds, their souls, and with the energy layer they can very well heal damage to their concept, and the Lizard Wizard has a very high end feat on the rate of this. Even if his sword is too strong to just be tanked, he can heal off the damage, or play through distance via summons and the range of his stuff.

Also, do triggers even have information resistances in the first place?

Sequence Deviation does this very thing, and The Lizard Wizard personally stonewalled it.

This seems to be reactionary? Like X does time manip and then Trigger cancels it out? If Koji does his thing there won't really be time for the Trigger to cancel it out.

Yeah, but that was because the effect had initially overwhelmed Xander's Resistance Roll. With a better one or power defense (Where the Lizard Wizard is much stronger and has the latter), he could have just flat out never had it happen.

Though just remember things that "one-shot" get nullified / Koji is unaffected by it (Invulnerability). This has included things like Void Manipulation that can erase souls before.

Yeah, that's why it's a fight. The Lizard Wizard can't just throw out one ability and expect someone to immediately die in ordinary circumstances anyways, his actual approach to combat and the nuances of how he uses his abilities are why he became the strongest of all Towers. He's gonna keep at it, and being a bleed elementite lends very well to just doing this overtime.

 

[Phoenks]

I suppose not without Lob Corping it, though I also don't understand why having extra souls in a weapon makes it automatically layered (our official guidelines on that specifies an ability being stronger doesn't mean it's properly layered)

It's literally just one of his mechanics. Adding souls to his sword allows him to neg stronger soul resistances. It's under Soul Drive on the profile. If you go to Skills, in the Skill Tabber.

Triggers don't just regenerate on the physical layer, they regenerate everywhere. Their minds, their souls, and with the energy layer they can very well heal damage to their concept, and the Lizard Wizard has a very high end feat on the rate of this. Even if his sword is too strong to just be tanked, he can heal off the damage, or play through distance via summons and the range of his stuff.

The issue is corruption isn't typically something you can just regenerate out of without explicit feats of being able to do that. It isn't conventional damage.

Sequence Deviation does this very thing, and The Lizard Wizard personally stonewalled it.

I don't even know how that is Type 2 NGL.

Yeah, but that was because the effect had initially overwhelmed Xander's Resistance Roll. With a better one or power defense (Where the Lizard Wizard is much stronger and has the latter), he could have just flat out never had it happen.

So it's luck based? I don't really understand the practically of this in a vs match.

 

[DMUA]

The issue is corruption isn't typically something you can just regenerate out of without explicit feats of being able to do that. It isn't conventional damage.

Butcher of Street's stuff is something Triggers can heal off, in general their bodies stick to a default state from when they first became Triggers. Someone like Hellfire Inferno Blazing Starfire healing to peak condition has him still covered in burnscars, it wouldn't make sense if direct harm like this went unopposed (And as I mentioned, standing in a Gash should also be able to remove it)

I don't even know how that is Type 2 NGL.

It's quite literally an ability to alter reality through changing it's information. Thinking about it one could also probably point out that the Mathematical layer exists as a subset of the physical, and Gashes destroy that in their wake as well.

So it's luck based? I don't really understand the practically of this in a vs match.

Not to an extreme degree, it's a tabletop system so things do have rolls despite the narrative itself not really acknowledging wild sways from luck. From how it's described it really seems more a matter that occasionally, powers can worm their way past someone's resistances, sometimes they're able to just power through a given effect, it's not too different from a wrestler getting his equal into a hold by just coming in from the right angle at the right time, and in this case the Lizard Wizard's a lot more resilient against that than people who can feasibly just handle it.

 

[Phoenks]

Butcher of Street's stuff is something Triggers can heal off, in general their bodies stick to a default state from when they first became Triggers. Someone like Hellfire Inferno Blazing Starfire healing to peak condition has him still covered in burnscars, it wouldn't make sense if direct harm like this went unopposed (And as I mentioned, standing in a Gash should also be able to remove it)

Biological manip? That only goes as deep as the body, though?

I don't really understand the comment about Blazing Starfire regen and how that matters?

It's quite literally an ability to alter reality through changing it's information. Thinking about it one could also probably point out that the Mathematical layer exists as a subset of the physical, and Gashes destroy that in their wake as well.

I mean, okay ig... Just saying the explanation and link don't really explain that well imo. If that wasn't listed as Info Manip I would not know it was Info Manip at all.

Not to an extreme degree, it's a tabletop system so things do have rolls despite the narrative itself not really acknowledging wild sways from luck. From how it's described it really seems more a matter that occasionally, powers can worm their way past someone's resistances, sometimes they're able to just power through a given effect, it's not too different from a wrestler getting his equal into a hold by just coming in from the right angle at the right time, and in this case the Lizard Wizard's a lot more resilient against that than people who can feasibly just handle it.

So then there is just a chance that Lizard Wizard doesn't cancel out Koji's thing? On top of there being the factor that it is reactionary? And on top of the fact that it isn't really an application of causality manipulation that they have dealt with before?

It's literally just one of his mechanics. Adding souls to his sword allows him to neg stronger soul resistances. It's under Soul Drive on the profile. If you go to Skills, in the Skill Tabber.

Continuing off of this, if Koji bypasses the Wizard's resistance then he has a way to permanently kill. Sure Wizard can regenerate damage to all aspects but Koji has ways of destroying them all with a single blow like Nine Circles...

 

[DMUA]

Biological manip? That only goes as deep as the body, though?

I believe I've told you before that Trigger abilities hit on all layers as a default. The Butcher of Streets in particular has direct evidence by virtue of requiring this to undo the effects of his powers on civilians they came across.

I mean, okay ig... Just saying the explanation and link don't really explain that well imo. If that wasn't listed as Info Manip I would not know it was Info Manip at all.

In particular it's more elaborated on Warrane Ambre's page (since it is his ability), and that link was more WoG going in depth on how exactly it functions with that application. It's another oversight to fix after this, I guess

So then there is just a chance that Lizard Wizard doesn't cancel out Koji's thing? On top of there being the factor that it is reactionary? And on top of the fact that it isn't really an application of causality manipulation that they have dealt with before?

It's pretty negligible with power defense in tow, they can react to being hit with a weapon especially if that entails an esoteric effect, and the difference is semantic, it's still enforcing a prior point in time onto a target unnaturally, which Triggers can block off and forcibly reset.

Continuing off of this, if Koji bypasses the Wizard's resistance then he has a way to permanently kill. Sure Wizard can regenerate damage to all aspects but Koji has ways of destroying them all with a single blow like Nine Circles...

With transmutation and explosion manipulation, both things Triggers have a lot of resilience against. It also seems to be by a specific vector in the form of his threads as well, which means it's not exempt from the many complications the Lizard Wizard could use to make things difficult.

• Theyhave amps for themselves in the form of using Energy for dodging or creating a forcefield. Given that a -6 is sufficient to make someone move at half the speed, his +8 with Power should exceed a two times boost with this (and if done so at point blank range, that'd flashbang Koji). A lot of Lizard Wizard creatures have moves like this now that I look things over, but also prominent is this being the inferior defense compared to collapsing into his own pocket dimension through Tarantism, which given about 400 meters of leeway could avoid Relativistic attacks
• By perceiving Koji on the mental layer, he'd have a read on what the guy's doing every step of the way, where Koji can't do the inverse due to his resilience to analytical precognition. His mental blade mentions that they clear their minds, but that'd still give a very big telltale that they're doing an attack and thus something he could defend against while not giving him a speed amp to compensate (And I'm not sure he'd have a reason to know that as the counter)
• Even without the help of the above, Warrane with a bit less mental processing power was able to respond to Butcher of Streets using Flashstep (a 5x speed increase) and halt it by intercepting with his own Flashstep before he could move any significant distance
• He could also get rid of the sword benefit entirely through many of his creatures being capable of grabbing onto them and having a great deal of lifting strength superiority, something like Neon Knights from the Mantis could help out significantly here too (Though, a important side note I'm realizing is that I screwed up the wording in translation. The actual mechanics has it's knockback apply to any defense even if successful, and in rewriting it's description to filter out game mechanics and better describe what it does in practice I ended up changing it to specifically blocks, which isn't accurate)
• The initial distance is 4 kilometers by SBA, and prior to Nine Circles having an immense range rating for it's destructive effects (which doesn't quite indicate the range he can actually activate the ability at), it seems his capabilities only extent up to hundreds of meters. He'll have to close the distance, and in that meantime the Lizard Wizard has a lot of room for setup, and he could keep that distance up with the Bronze Horse, Flashstep, slowing Koji down with stuff like White Dwarf Mantises or other creatures, or most prominently Locomotive Breath going as fast as Flashstep despite being hit with Nailman's nails, and of course he's got a ton of AOE attacks to spare.
• With time to prepare, beyond just making a lot of Lizard Creatures (Which, if he gets enough out, could result in him using Burst and just ending the fight), he could get to making Red Gashes. They'd halve Koji's speed when he enters, and the cracks at their edges can be used to absorb and nullify stuff thrown the Lizard Wizard's way.

 

[Phoenks]

Theyhave amps for themselves in the form of using Energy for dodging or creating a forcefield. Given that a -6 is sufficient to make someone move at half the speed, his +8 with Power should exceed a two times boost with this (and if done so at point blank range, that'd flashbang Koji). A lot of Lizard Wizard creatures have moves like this now that I look things over, but also prominent is this being the inferior defense compared to collapsing into his own pocket dimension through Tarantism, which given about 400 meters of leeway could avoid Relativistic attacks

I mean sure but also you reminded me Koji does start with a 10~x speed advantage which is pretty deadly in of itself.

By perceiving Koji on the mental layer, he'd have a read on what the guy's doing every step of the way, where Koji can't do the inverse due to his resilience to analytical precognition. His mental blade mentions that they clear their minds, but that'd still give a very big telltale that they're doing an attack and thus something he could defend against while not giving him a speed amp to compensate (And I'm not sure he'd have a reason to know that as the counter)

What do you mean by perceiving him on the mental layer, exactly?

Also, how exactly would it give a big telltale if his mind is cleared? I'm not really understanding this one.

Even without the help of the above, Warrane with a bit less mental processing power was able to respond to Butcher of Streets using Flashstep (a 5x speed increase) and halt it by intercepting with his own Flashstep before he could move any significant distance

Okay, but that still isn't 10x speed, and isn't that a limited time thing?

He could also get rid of the sword benefit entirely through many of his creatures being capable of grabbing onto them and having a great deal of lifting strength superiority, something like Neon Knights from the Mantis could help out significantly here too (Though, a important side note I'm realizing is that I screwed up the wording in translation. The actual mechanics has it's knockback apply to any defense even if successful, and in rewriting it's description to filter out game mechanics and better describe what it does in practice I ended up changing it to specifically blocks, which isn't accurate)

Kinda requires them to not get one-shot and blitzed first...

Also, Koji can clone himself and his swords. This is another thing that I feel isn't really being acknowledged.

Koji starts with a huge speed advantage (like 10x) and his in-character move is duplicating himself to overwhelm the opponent while using his astral weaponry. He can make up to 12 clones that all share the same statistics as the original...

The initial distance is 4 kilometers by SBA, and prior to Nine Circles having an immense range rating for it's destructive effects (which doesn't quite indicate the range he can actually activate the ability at), it seems his capabilities only extent up to hundreds of meters. He'll have to close the distance, and in that meantime the Lizard Wizard has a lot of room for setup, and he could keep that distance up with the Bronze Horse, Flashstep, slowing Koji down with stuff like White Dwarf Mantises or other creatures, or most prominently Locomotive Breath going as fast as Flashstep despite being hit with Nailman's nails, and of course he's got a ton of AOE attacks to spare.

Koji has teleportation.

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

The character should be put as "Low 7-B, up to 7-B with amplifications". Having a match for the Low 7-B means that they're Low 7-B. Not "I start as Low 7-B, but become a higher tier after the fact."

That could let people say "Well he's Low 7-B, but can then amp himself to 4-B." My suggestion is to either let him only have amps that don't push him past the tier, or if any do, ban the amps.

Just so I'm clear, I'm saying that it isn't allowed in this scenario because it's a battle for a strongest tier

 

[Phoenks]

The character should be put as "Low 7-B, up to 7-B with amplifications". Having a match for the Low 7-B means that they're Low 7-B. Not "I start as Low 7-B, but become a higher tier after the fact."

That could let people say "Well he's Low 7-B, but can then amp himself to 4-B." My suggestion is to either let him only have amps that don't push him past the tier, or if any do, ban the amps.

Just so I'm clear, I'm saying that it isn't allowed in this scenario because it's a battle for a strongest tier

I'm keeping it thee same as the on-site version of this thread, which allows such amps.

They can't be restricted since they are a resultant of passive empowerment of the character, rather than an activated form/stat boost.

 

[Moritzva]

I'm keeping it thee same as the on-site version of this thread, which allows such amps.

They can't be restricted since they are a resultant of passive empowerment of the character, rather than an activated form/stat boost.

As someone who has been staff on VSBW for quite some time, these amps would not remotely apply. First off, they are literally passive empowerments, as you yourself admit. One quite literally involves him holding a sword. Not only would passive empowerments already count towards his base tier, but "holding a sword to triple stats" would, without a doubt, be marked as its own tier.

Your argument is blatantly disingenuous. It does not take a genius to tell why "+75% stronger via being an arrogant dragon" is not a normal stat boost after the fact. In fact, you literally admit it yourself; it's not an activated form/stat boost, it's just a passive, flat empowerment that they already have.

It is severely disappointing that an admin of the wiki I used to run is arguing in such immensely poor faith. Stop this shit and do better.

 

[Phoenks]

Koji starts as Low 7-B in base and gets passive amps from empowerment by certain things that can bring him up to varying degrees of potency in higher tiers, yeah. I never denied this?

I don't get what is "blatantly disingenuous" or "poor faith" about my arguments? All I'm saying is that the VSBW version of the strongest thread allows things like this, to my knowledge, anyway. Which is why I am allowing them here.

An example would be something like Hulk's "Rage Power," which is really just another form of empowerment, which can boost his physical tier up to absurd levels.

It is also something that can't be normally restricted in versus matches because it is intrinsic to his character and emotion, rather than being something he can innately control. (Restricting something like this in a versus match means it can't be added, since it isn't something the character can restrict themselves)

 

[Rayfire]

I think everyone is trying to say that it seems very wacky to have ALL of these amps. Like, saying that your character can be amped by "Arrogance" or literally just HOLDING A SWORD seems very random and just makes it seem like it's specifically for amps in a vs thread. These "World Mechanics" must be very complicated if they really can be amped by things as simple as those. Thats why venefica mentions that they seem random

Like, being amped by rage like the hulk, or amped by sheer willpower like most of my characters is definitely reasonable, but a whole 3x amp by simply holding a sword? Must be a pretty strong sword then Samurai's don't increase their energy output by holding a sword. Why does koji get an amp by holding what seems to be just ANY sword judging by it's wording?

135% stat amps for being in an unfamiliar territory? That's like saying i get amped by that much if i randomly got teleported to another country

50% stat boost for dragon ranking? Shouldn't that just apply to koji's base stats? Does it just... Only apply when he gets into a fight? That condition seems oddly specific in terms of when it's activated if thats the case

It just seems very silly to have THAT any amps, especially right off of the bat. Koji isn't even Low 7-B anymore either. That's how unbalanced it is.

 

[Rayfire]

Just thought i'd drop my thoughts, seeing that the thread is pretty active

 

[Phoenks]

I think everyone is trying to say that it seems very wacky to have ALL of these amps. Like, saying that your character can be amped by "Arrogance" or literally just HOLDING A SWORD seems very random and just makes it seem like it's specifically for amps in a vs thread. These "World Mechanics" must be very complicated if they really can be amped by things as simple as those. Thats why venefica mentions that they seem random

I mean, you are free to call it random. Back when the verse first started a lot of them definitely were quite random. I don't deny that.

They are simply mechanics that come from the verse starting off as an RPG-type thingy. Nowadays, in the modern versions of the setting, they aren't utilized quite as much, but they're still there.

They might be some of the oldest "abilities" in the entire verse lmao.

50% stat boost for dragon ranking? Shouldn't that just apply to koji's base stats? Does it just... Only apply when he gets into a fight? That condition seems oddly specific in terms of when it's activated if thats the case

It only applies in the proximity of species lower-ranked than him. It's passive-activated in that situation.

I don't think it's oddly specific. It is specifically meant to be a combat mechanic.

135% stat amps for being in an unfamiliar territory? That's like saying i get amped by that much if i randomly got teleported to another country

It is a boost to help while adventuring and such.

It just seems very silly to have THAT any amps, especially right off of the bat.

Well, I mean, that's just your opinion. It isn't silly in the verse... it was originally just a way to make the stats system more chaotic and interesting since amps could greatly change the outcome of certain encounters in certain situations.

And as for the sword, I don't even really get why that's so crazy? There are many RPG systems where holding a sword increases stats. Like +10 strength and +10 speed or something. Koji's sword thingy is just a bit better, I guess.

 

[Phoenks]

Anyway, to limit the unfairness I'll just change the starting position to somewhere familiar to Koji. This practice is apparently actually done if the starting location makes it more favorable towards one opponent over the other, so my bad for not doing that at the beginning.

In which case only the 3x sword amp and the 25% amp apply, making Koji 3.75x faster at the start with an AP of 5.025 megatons, which is still Low 7-B.

 

[Rayfire]

I mean, you are free to call it random. Back when the verse first started a lot of them definitely were quite random. I don't deny that.

They are simply mechanics that come from the verse starting off as an RPG-type thingy. Nowadays, in the modern versions of the setting, they aren't utilized quite as much, but they're still there.

They might be some of the oldest "abilities" in the entire verse lmao.

Well, these random amps are definitely being utilised here. Koji even starts with them apparently, so I fail to see how they aren’t “used as much” anymore

It only applies in the proximity of species lower-ranked than him. It's passive-activated in that situation.

I don't think it's oddly specific. It is specifically meant to be a combat mechanic.

If a species ranks lower than him, he would have an advantage anyway because of that. It just seems a bit unnecessary to have an amp on top of that, especially since he gets an edge over his opponent in that case either way.

It is a boost to help while adventuring and such.

That partially makes sense if ark collection is supposed to be a rpg, but where is the line drawn? That’s a very odd thing to get a buff from. If anything, you’d be more vulnerable in an unfamiliar environment. Wouldn’t it make you weaker then?

If you get a boost from that, does that mean you can get a 5x stat increase by picking up a cool stick? Does that mean you get a 50% intelligence increase by walking past a library? What determines what you can get a buff from and what doesn’t if negative things benefit you?

Well, I mean, that's just your opinion. It isn't silly in the verse... it was originally just a way to make the stats system more chaotic and interesting since amps could greatly change the outcome of certain encounters in certain situations.

And as for the sword, I don't even really get why that's so crazy? There are many RPG systems where holding a sword increases stats. Like +10 strength and +10 speed or something. Koji's sword thingy is just a bit better, I guess.

Doesn’t that apply to vs threads as well? Making your system more “chaotic” surely isn’t a good look in both powerscaling and writing.

The difference is that it seems to be ANY sword, from the way you worded it at least. Aren’t some swords weaker than others in rpg games? It just looks fixed, and is also stackable with whatever benefits a decent sword would give him, like if a sword doubled his AP or something.

x3 boost to all stats the moment he holds a sword.

You also said it was ALL stats, which would include durability, stamina, intelligence, etc. How does that work? Are all swords in ark just infused with some top-tier energy? I get strength and speed amps, that makes sense, but amps for ALL stats when wielding a sword doesn’t show up very often at all in rpg games, I know that much.

It kinda just looks like it’s used for power purposes. It’d look fine to me on it’s own even with those problems, but when you get amps from something that should make you weaker logically speaking, and getting another amp just because you like to talk trash/be arrogant, it just looks wacky

 

[Phoenks]

Well, these random amps are definitely being utilised here. Koji even starts with them apparently, so I fail to see how they aren’t “used as much” anymore

As in, in the newer versions of the Ark Collection. Like my Grimark "sequel" the RPG aspects of the verse kinda take a background placement so you don't typically see a bunch of statistics amp stuff. Like Nora doesn't have a whole bunch of crazy stat amp thingies.

If a species ranks lower than him, he would have an advantage anyway because of that. It just seems a bit unnecessary to have an amp on top of that, especially since he gets an edge over his opponent in that case either way.

It's specifically a dragon thing. Just one of the species mechanics in the verse from the early days when it was more RPG focused.

That partially makes sense if ark collection is supposed to be a rpg, but where is the line drawn? That’s a very odd thing to get a buff from. If anything, you’d be more vulnerable in an unfamiliar environment. Wouldn’t it make you weaker then?

"You'd be more vulnerable." Which is specifically why an amp like that exists lol.

If you get a boost from that, does that mean you can get a 5x stat increase by picking up a cool stick? Does that mean you get a 50% intelligence increase by walking past a library? What determines what you can get a buff from and what doesn’t if negative things benefit you?

The things that determine it are your specific traits and abilities. By "world mechanics" I just meant such mechanics are based on the fact that the world is an RPG like setting and there's many things from early on in the series that do statistics stuff. Nova's characters in particular have a BUNCH of that.

Doesn’t that apply to vs threads as well? Making your system more “chaotic” surely isn’t a good look in both powerscaling and writing.

I mean you act like we were thinking about vsthreads 4 years ago when I was just trying to have fun making these stat amp thingies to have stuff be more interesting for my players (I was a completely newbie to powerscaling in general at the time). Also, the system being chaotic is kinda the whole point lol. It ties into the verse narratively speaking, even to this day.

As I said these are literally some of the oldest mechanics in the verse... we've had stat modification stuff forever.

You also said it was ALL stats, which would include durability, stamina, intelligence, etc. How does that work? Are all swords in ark just infused with some top-tier energy? I get strength and speed amps, that makes sense, but amps for ALL stats when wielding a sword doesn’t show up very often at all in rpg games, I know that much.

It's a Koji-specific thing.

It kinda just looks like it’s used for power purposes.

I mean it is used for combat and situational purposes in the verse. So of course it kinda translates to vs threads like this. That isn't to be unexpected... It's just a lot more broken and "unfair" in this thread than it is in the verse.

getting another amp just because you like to talk trash/be arrogant, it just looks wacky

No, no, that's another species thing. It is a "pride" trait of Dragons that allows them to gain s 25% amp in the presence of those they feel superior too. And because Koji is an inherently arrogant person that amp would apply more often than not.

 

[DMUA]

Koji starts as Low 7-B in base and gets passive amps from empowerment by certain things that can bring him up to varying degrees of potency in higher tiers, yeah. I never denied this?

His Low 7-B feat is sourced from a battle with another being. Was he not holding a sword at that time? Was he not superior in hierarchy to a Golem? Did he decide to not be arrogant at the very precipice of annihilating his opponent?

Saying all of these are true and thus the moment he enters a versus thread he's actually 7-B is quite suspect. And if that's not true, then they wouldn't be a stat amp, they'd just be apart of his stats as listed.

What do you mean by perceiving him on the mental layer, exactly?

It's on the page. By the fact Triggers can see the mental layer, they can easily get a read on people through their mental cores.

Also, how exactly would it give a big telltale if his mind is cleared? I'm not really understanding this one.

If the above spontaneously stops happening, that's still a clear sign they're about to do something, and given it's specifically for swinging a sword, the blank is something that can be filled in pretty easily.

Also, Koji can clone himself and his swords. This is another thing that I feel isn't really being acknowledged.

With the AoE of the Lizard Wizard's stuff, that's not going to have as major an effect, there's no difference between FAMINEPULSEing or invoking the Murder of the Universe on 1 Koji and 12 Kojis, save the fact duplicating himself is explicitly exhausting and leaving himself vulnerable to the Lizard Wizard's more reliable wincon of just letting the guy bleed out as he keeps safe distance (and when Polywanagonaland gets busted out, this actually actively hinders Koji because it lets The Lizard Wizard heal much faster than he already would).

The Lizard Wizard flat out just does this but better, and trying to match him on that stage won't work.

Koji has teleportation.

Then it's a fight, I suppose. Stuart's still got his options for remaking that distance and avoiding direct hits (and it doesn't seem like his casting range exceeds hundreds of meters anyhow, as mentioned)

Honestly, enough evidence goes against this amp stuff being exploitable as the impression has been given that I'm comfortable just voting for the Lizard Wizard. He'd go as far as to have the advantage on that end, and with his ability to consistently pump out creatures to fire out massive AoEs and invoke Random Events, as well as directly wear down Koji with intense lacerations or potentially even reach Burst by pulling out enough creatures, I think his loadout's just solid enough to overcome the strokes of death Koji's sword can bring and his resistances prevent that from going beyond a Melee range.

 

[Phoenks]

His Low 7-B feat is sourced from a battle with another being. Was he not holding a sword at that time? Was he not superior in hierarchy to a Golem? Did he decide to not be arrogant at the very precipice of annihilating his opponent?

I'd have to ask/look back.

That's kinda a big issue with this. I didn't really make this profile. I mean I'd hope he took that into account but I'm not completely sure.

I kinda considered not doing this since Koji's profile is a little... weird. It's not made in the way I typically would index things.

And you are right that things like that should be accounted for.

Tbh I don't mind just calling off the match because of that. I honestly just made this for fun.

If not, then all the other stuff is fair. I will cast a vote for the Lizard Wizard too. I don't really have any further arguments on Koji. He's a pretty simple guy overall.

I think Lizard man has a big edge in versatility.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Lizard FRA

 

[Rayfire]

Lizard dude FRA then

 

[Javenplayz253]

Lizard fra

 

[Rayfire]

Dats grace

 

[Rayfire]

Added to both