Kengan - speed upgrade.

[LordGinSama]

Simple ass thread, the reason the previous speed ratings were downgraded was because in Kengan Asura it's stated that humans cannot react to the speed of a gun being fired.


However this is some pretty bad logic seeing as how this statement is specially talking about normal humans, and not Superhumans such as the average Kengan fighter. The statement about bullet timing shouldn't be applied to Kengan fighters, as one of the fighters who isn't even the fastest in the verse is capable of reacting to point blank gunshots. This is further backed up by Ohma and Lolong being able to break the sound barrier with their strikes, and without Ohma even using the Advance. Ohma being the same person who is confident on being able to deflect bullets, and Gensai who blocked bullets in the past using an inferior form of Foresight.



Speaking of which I don't wanna see "but this was Foresight so it doesn't scale to anything." it scales to sheer reaction and movement speed, it's no different than Kenbunshoku Haki users in One Piece who uses their predictions and enhanced senses to predict SoL attacks. It would still scale to the reaction and movement speed of these characters, as well as attack speed.


For instance Medel's Foresight is on the same level of Asura Gensai's, who was able to use his Foresight to react to rifle fire (using an much less potent form of Motionless.), and Gaolang is able to counter this reaction and movement speed simply by punching faster than Carlos could react.


I suggest we reverse the edits of the previous rating since the downgrades were bad to be frank.

 

[azontr]

Easy agree.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks good to me.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Easy agree.

I know the author is trying to convey certain things like humans can't react to mach speed and higher, but as you said that's usually described for "Normal humans". And it even has the Normal humans can't react- get "wait what the" during that Niko deflecting that bullet chapter.

There's just too many anti-feats for it to force everyone to scale down.

 

[Overlord1]

It's an excellent point. I agree.

 

[Xulrev]

Gonna just re-post this from the last time we had to have this argument over something pretty blatantly obvious.


I'm the progenitor of the Against side. As such, here's more context:

One of the only bullet dodges in Kengan has the person performing it immediately stating it's only possible due to noticing the moment it's going to be fired, not reacting post-firing

A fighter losing consciousness for 0.14 seconds is enough time for one of the fastest fighters in-series, albeit while injured, to pull off exactly one move . Note that this is the same fighter who 'reacts to a whip', yet he can only perform, explicitly, a single takedown on an opponent who wasnt paying attention for .14 seconds while in melee range.

Here is most of an entire chapter showing quite literally the second or third best fighter in the entire series fighting the world's best MMA fighter; they perform roughly 15 strikes/motions in a 34 second timeframe, explicitly

We are told, outright, by narration of one of the most skilled characters in-series that only prediction of a bullet's firing and its muzzle trajectory can be used to deflect, not react to but DELFECT bullets

The best reaction times in-series are stated to be 75 milliseconds, supported by said person being able to throw 4 strikes in a 76 millisecond timeframe and dodge a punch in a 78 millisecond timeframe. The doctor giving the reaction time statement is a man who can tell how much damage a man's heart is doing to their cardiovascular system simply by how irregularly fast it is beating, and is accurate in his assessment as such. The author uses him as objective medical data, and the fact that the series goes out of its way to give us an irl, accurate, peak human reaction time and stipulates that breaking it by barely 5 milliseconds is 'superhuman' tells us much, here, about the verse's speed.

An attack that lasts 100 milliseconds is actually one of the fastest fighter's trump cards

Of note is that the 'superhuman' reflexes guy, with 75ms reactions, explicitly can barely react to the aforementioned 100ms attack, making it perfectly consistent in-verse

So we have several statements that to dodge bullets you must know when it will be fired and know muzzle trajectory. We know that 100ms for an attack is impressive. We know that the fastest reflexes in the entire series are 75ms.

We also know that all these things are kept consistent with one another. Timeframes for fights, timeframes for attacks and openings, the author keeps these consistent. Paying attention to context is super important here.

As to the feats listed in the OP:

Inaba 'blocks' bullets with his hair, when the bullets are fired directly at his hair. It's literally one panel.

Muteba taking down armed pirates, off-screen, does not mean he's bullet-timing, that's absurdly weak.

Ohma 'reacting' to the tip of a whip doesn't mean anything since he had the entire wind-up to react to the whip's tip, and the fact that the author does not state for how long the tip exceeds the sound barrier (note: scientifically speaking, it only exceeds the sound barrier due to a loop in the whip accelerating to the end and 'snapping' it, a process which lasts milliseconds at most; so Ohma would have had to react only in that exact instant to be hypersonic).

The entirety of Bando Yohei is simply 'his arms disappear from sight'. Except, if his arms are supersonic, and they're disappearing from literally everyone's sight.....that's absurdly consistent with having reaction times beneath supersonic. And Hatsumi explicitly dodged by guessing where the blow was coming, the context for that entire fight was quite literally 'Hatsumi cannot dodge the strike, he has to guess at where it'll come from'.

Anyone who thinks Kengan is bullet-timing in the face of the entire series telling us otherwise is absurdly mistaken, or trying to blatantly and appallingly wank the series

 

[Xulrev]

Oh and of course the fact that Raian Kure couldn't dodge a crossbow bolt, regardless of scaling above Rei, in a fight where he was explicitly dodging harmful attacks

 

[Deceived3596]

 

[LordGinSama]

Will reply to the above whenever I'm not driving in shit-hole America.


However before I go into things I'll state that the Raian example is well, just bad to be frank. Raian isn't the type of fighter who actively dodges attacks pre-Omega. Given his bloodthirsty personality, he has a high tendency to simply eat damage done to him rather than dodge the attacks. (One of his key weaknesses, hence why he lost the fight to Ohma, refusing to dodge Ohma's attacks which lead to his black-out by the accumulative damage he sustained.).


Amongst the fact that he wouldn't need to dodge the bolt given it's position and where the Guardian was aiming at a long fatal area (I.E the head, instead the Guardian aimed at his shoulder, a non fatal area.) that's very much different than Raian actively avoiding a point blank attack to the head with a weapon that would have smashed his skull open.



Also i never cited the Muteba nor Inaba feats, so I'm not sure why your referring to arguments I've never made. As for the Akoya reaction speed stuff, that's hard countered given the fact that Ryuki and Xia-Ja have both blitzed him, Ryuki being the same person who can dodge point blank shotgun blasts, Okubo attack speed being >>>> Terashi's Emperor Eyes which are in canon >> The Kengan eye which should scale above Akoya's reactions.



There's also Gaolang who's able to punch faster than Carlos's Foresight, which is comparable to Gensai's. Ohma and Rolong being able to break the sound barrier, Ryuki dodging shotgun fire (Someone who doesn't even have Foresight mind you.) and Ohma's feat of dodging blank rounds with gunpowder in them, even considering them slow, Ryuki blitzing the **** out of another Foresight user, etc.


At lot of your examples come from Ashura, which is outdated to be frank given the speed feats from Omega. Your using previous statements to discredit later feats which contradict said statements.



The Niko example is also flawed as again, he lacks the Foresight ability and is capable of still reacting to gunshot. If his natural reaction speed weren't up to par then he wouldn't be able to react in the first place unless you assume Niko uses some type of temporal Foresight that allows him to see seconds into the future which is unsupported.


I didn't use Ashura feats and such for a reason given Omega directly opposes that notion.

 

[LordGinSama]

Should also be noted, Ryuki being the same guy who can blitz a crowd of people before they can even perceive him.

 

[azontr]

Gin packing this guy already zamn

 

[Xulrev]

So how is https://imgur.io/a/MFAzlQM breaking the sound barrier?

Their impacts make a very loud sound when hitting. I would enjoy objective proof, PROOF mind you, that they broke the sound barrier.

For reference, you cut off the rest of the feat in that album, wherein Gaolong explicitly states they MIGHT BE as fast as his own Flash. I find it odd that two fighters nearing his speed suddenly break the sound barrier when he himself.....never does. Regardless of being faster. Hmm.

GinSama, quite simply you actually didn't refute any of my examples, I just dismantled your single 'sonic' feat, and I don't see any logical explanation for anyone buying into any of this. I gave a plethora of explicit anti-feats to dissuade any rational mind of the notion implied. You rely on this as 'bullet timing' or whatever, when there's literally no objective frame of reference for when he reacted. At all. And they're goons he's murking. Anyone remotely trained in the Kenganverse can predict firing and move beforehand.

"Blitzes a Foresight User" okay no read the scan he explicitly isn't using FORESIGHT, his Bird's Eye View goes by rule of thumb maneuvers he attempts to predict. Ryuki simply altered his attack pattern and started fighting with intent to kill, so Naidan got caught offguard. Here's the actual explanation instead of one single panel sans context. Further proof my take is correct


Almost your entire argument relies on 'okay here's a nebulous gun interaction and unclear art, let's ignore the actual creator of the world's consistent, dozens-of-times reiterated statements because his artist is flashy'. That's not good enough if you want to be ACCURATE in assessing the verse. If you want to wank, be my guest, but it's not correct.

 

[Xulrev]

Oh and for the whole "it's Omega not Ashura they're different now"; the exact same fighters are still relevant. Are you claiming that because 3 years of timeskips occurred the entirety of humanity in this world magically became several dozens of times faster? Give me a break

 

[LordGinSama]

So how is https://imgur.io/a/MFAzlQM breaking the sound barrier?

Their impacts make a very loud sound when hitting. I would enjoy objective proof, PROOF mind you, that they broke the sound barrier.

Do you know what a sonic boom is? The proof is right there.


Ohma and Rolon are both actively breaking sonic booms, given the sound effects, visuals of the creating localized shockwaves, Allisa having to cover her ears in pain, other fighters being able to reproduce the same effects (Toa v Julius, Wakatsuki vs Julius clashing, etc.) along with it being stated to too fast to keep track of are all "proof." of it being a sonic boom. Whereas you have little to no evidence for your own interpretation, to summarize your entire counter argument, your relying heavily on argument from disbelief which isn't a legitimate argument to make.




The Gaolang part is irrelevant as again, his flash has gotten faster to the point of being able to blitz Foresight users of the likes of Medel who scales to Gensai's.




I also find it genuinely funny your accusing me of not "refuting." your example whenever you're the one who didn't reply to the vast majority of my Omega examples. I didn't reply to the majority of your Ashura examples for two main reasons.


1: They have nothing to do with my argument and I didn't use them for examples for a reason. Omega retcons a lot of whatever was established in Ashura, which is going to happen with a plot and narrative change.



2: You copy and pasted all of that from a previous thread that makes very different arguments from mine. Your expecting me to argue on points that I never even made, especially since your counter points were copy and pasted from a much older and different OP that doesn't use the arguments presented here.



I'd also appreciate it if you were to drop the mild condescending tone.

dissuade any rational mind of the notion implied. You rely on this as 'bullet timing' or whatever, when there's literally no objective frame of reference for when he reacted. At all. And they're goons he's murking. Anyone remotely trained in the Kenganverse can predict firing and move beforehand.

There is an objective reference of when he started moving, as we see the "goons." started firing after Ryuki started moving and taking care of the rest.


Only those capable of Predictions are able to predict the trajectory of rounds being fired, Ryuki is not one of those people as he lacks the means to accurately predict oncoming attacks from the foe. Do you have statements or anything to imply Gaoh has any sort of Prediction? If not your argument is moot. There's also the fact that the rounds appear to be buck shot, which would of course spread making it harder to dodge.

"Blitzes a Foresight User" okay no read the scan he explicitly isn't using FORESIGHT, his Bird's Eye View goes by rule of thumb maneuvers he attempts to predict.

Foresight is a general blanket term for being able to predict incoming attacks. Foresight is spilt into 3 categories. The term "foresight." isn't only exclusive to the type Gensai and co have, most fighters actually have some form of the aforementioned "Foresight." (Again not to be confused with Motionless.) so your point here doesn't take away from mine in the long run.

Ryuki simply altered his attack pattern and started fighting with intent to kill, so Naidan got caught offguard. Here's the actual explanation instead of one single panel sans context. Further proof my take is correct

He isn't using solely his footwork, it's stated Ryuki is actively getting faster. Fast enough for Naidan's Eye of Sky to be unable to react to the sudden increase in speed Ryuki received.

Almost your entire argument relies on 'okay here's a nebulous gun interaction and unclear art, let's ignore the actual creator of the world's consistent, dozens-of-times reiterated statements because his artist is flashy'. That's not good enough if you want to be ACCURATE in assessing the verse. If you want to wank, be my guest, but it's not correct.

First of all, let's not exaggerate here. It's never stated a "dozen." times. If you don't agree with my interpretation that's perfectly fine, you don't need to agree with anything I say after all, similarly to how I don't need to agree with your own interpretations.

Oh and for the whole "it's Omega not Ashura they're different now"; the exact same fighters are still relevant. Are you claiming that because 3 years of timeskips occurred the entirety of humanity in this world magically became several dozens of times faster? Give me a break

Oh so your telling me that a verse where the characters get stronger, faster and so on just by training is unheard of in fiction? The more you know i guess. I guess it's not like Koga went from fodder to being able to impress the God Tiers with his growth rate within the span of less than 2 years magically didn't happen?

 

[Zensum]

I agree w/ Xulrev's interp atm.
Gin's claim of breaking the sound barrier requires over-appealing to visuals IMO, but I'm more curious for scan evidence of this:

Omega retcons a lot of whatever was established in Ashura, which is going to happen with a plot and narrative change.

 

[Xulrev]

Gin,

They're not breaking the sound barrier, and the color commentator clearly states "I can BARELY follow them with my eyes", which means an ordinary human being can track supersonic strikes now? No.

The Gaolang part is irrelevant as again, his flash has gotten faster to the point of being able to blitz Foresight users of the likes of Medel who scales to Gensai's.

What? Medel weaves it. Gaolang ends up hitting Medel by predicting his movement, not by being fast. This is an explicit, egregious lie by you to support your fanfic of the verse getting faster and it's proven by scans, please just.....don't.

Omega retcons a lot of whatever was established in Ashura, which is going to happen with a plot and narrative change.

How? Where? It establishes Akoya is still the fastest reaction speed in the verse.

I'd also appreciate it if you were to drop the mild condescending tone.

I'd appreciate you not provably lying about feats to inflate the verse but here we are.

As to the general Ashura scans, it literally sets the tone for the entire verse. Nothing in Omega supersedes this, ever. I don't reply to many of the Omega scans since my general observably correct statement of 'flashy art which goes against a dozen repeated statements' is self-evidently true.

There is an objective reference of when he started moving, as we see the "goons." started firing after Ryuki started moving and taking care of the rest.

So here in green is where the goon fires, Ryuki starts at the red part, the goon is just objectively missing because there are two targets and he fires between them lmfao, the guy was about 3 meters off from firing anywhere near him!

Oh so your telling me that a verse where the characters get stronger, faster and so on just by training is unheard of in fiction? The more you know i guess. I guess it's not like Koga went from fodder to being able to impress the God Tiers with his growth rate within the span of less than 2 years magically didn't happen?

asks for condescension to be dropped, proceeds to end comment with condescension so thick it requires a knife to cut through

Koga, an ordinary dude, goes from 'not even Kengan material' (the guy nearly loses to an 0-3 fighter who is literally called bottom of the barrel after 6 months of intensive training with the best around) to 'solid upper-class fighter' (still struggles to low-diff a very good rookie fighter) in the course of over 3 years of unending training as a prodigal fighter with a one-in-a-million gift and good genetic and literally the best fighters in the entire series training him.

No feats exist such that we should believe THE ENTIRE VERSE gained a 3-fold speed boost. No feats exist such that reactions are above Akoya and Nicholas' objective 74 and 78 millisecond timings that, again, are reiterated in Omega. Even Lolong, the one you claim was throwing supersonic jabs, was surprised anyone in the world could beat out Nicholas in raw reaction timing and you want to sit there and claim Lolong was just ******* wrong???? While using his feats to justify what he disagrees with???

My guy this is just falsifying evidence to push a blatantly false narrative and it would be best if it were dropped.

 

[LordGinSama]

Will reply in a minute but I've got a solid counter already partially created.

 

[Xulrev]

Will reply in a minute but I've got a solid counter already partially created.

I trust you do, but realistically you can't contend with Lolong himself, the alpha dog of Omega up until just 45 chapters ago, being downright flabbergasted that someone had reaction times on par with Nicholas' 78 milliseconds.

Look at art all you want, the explicit authorial intent is there and the characters themselves disagree with any sort of reaction speed that is above 74~78 milliseconds. It's black and white

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

If the Kengan superhuman fighters are clearly distinguishable from normal humans, than I see nothing wrong with Gin's interpretation.

 

[LordGinSama]

Gin,

They're not breaking the sound barrier, and the color commentator clearly states "I can BARELY follow them with my eyes", which means an ordinary human being can track supersonic strikes now? No.

They're coming close, which is my point and whilst holding back, especially Ohma as at this point can still use the Advance to multiple his speed.


That was the main point, which I believe went over your head entirely. I also wouldn't call Sayaka an "ordinary" human as she can keep up with the fighter's movements in order to announce them. Either way, they'd still be within the realm of that level which supports my argument.

What? Medel weaves it. Gaolang ends up hitting Medel by predicting his movement, not by being fast. This is an explicit, egregious lie by you to support your fanfic of the verse getting faster and it's proven by scans, please just.....don't.

No, your using completely different scans than the one I'm actually referring to. Xulrev, it's quite literally stated by Gaolang. Those little fox news style jabs aren't going to help your argument in the slightest.



Please practice what you preach.

How? Where? It establishes Akoya is still the fastest reaction speed in the verse.

Ignoring Foresight users and Rolon blitzing thr **** out of both Nicholas and Akoya. Yet I'm the one lying. Okay

So here in green is where the goon fires, Ryuki starts at the red part, the goon is just objectively missing because there are two targets and he fires between them lmfao, the guy was about 3 meters off from firing anywhere near him!

Funny that you act smug about this point whenever your evidently wrong, given the fact that the goon starts shooting well before the green circle panel occurs.

10/10.

asks for condescension to be dropped, proceeds to end comment with condescension so thick it requires a knife to cut through

Not sure if your familiar with the term "treat others the way you wish to be treated." you first started with the condescending tone, not me. Perhaps if you weren't so arrogant I wouldn't be replying in such a manor? Just food for thought.

Koga, an ordinary dude, goes from 'not even Kengan material' (the guy nearly loses to an 0-3 fighter who is literally called bottom of the barrel after 6 months of intensive training with the best around) to 'solid upper-class fighter' (still struggles to low-diff a very good rookie fighter) in the course of over 3 years of unending training as a prodigal fighter with a one-in-a-million gift and good genetic and literally the best fighters in the entire series training him.

Definitely undermining Koga a lot there, given the fact that Ohma gives various comments about Koga's incredible growth rate, and wouldn't train him personally in the Niko Style unless he saw potential in him.


Koga's genetics have nothing to do with his growth rate, that's only applicable to his Fist-Eye.

No feats exist such that we should believe THE ENTIRE VERSE gained a 3-fold speed boost. No feats exist such that reactions are above Akoya and Nicholas' objective 74 and 78 millisecond timings that, again, are reiterated in Omega. Even Lolong, the one you claim was throwing supersonic jabs, was surprised anyone in the world could beat out Nicholas in raw reaction timing and you want to sit there and claim Lolong was just ******* wrong???? While using his feats to justify what he disagrees with???

Rolon being the same guy who effortlessly blitzed both Lebaner and Akoya at the same time on two occasions? Yeah, no. You providing scans that are before the events of my claims doesn't discredit anything and only serves to make you seem manipulative.



FYI there's a high probability of Akoya's reactions being the "highest" as being hyperbolic. That's a very common theme in Kengan, narrative statements often times are contradicted by feats, such as Gozo having the world's fastest knee, Toa having unparalleled strength, Lihito's Razor's Edge being Fang Level, etc.



Rolon disappearing from the eyes of trained militants, Ryuki dodging shotgun fire, blitzing a group of people, Foresight users like Rolon getting blitzed by Ohma's Possessing Spirit, etc all support this.

My guy this is just falsifying evidence to push a blatantly false narrative and it would be best if it were dropped.

Friend, your arguments are heavily lacking and or ignoring context and attempting to push your own interpretations via attempting to "discredit" the arguments I've presented. But alas I doubt either one of us are going to give here so it's best to let others decide who they agree with. I doubt either one of us really has the time to go back and forth here.



Your literally riding statements whenever this wiki takes feats over statements.

 

[LordGinSama]

Look at art all you want, the explicit authorial intent is there and the characters themselves disagree with any sort of reaction speed that is above 74~78 milliseconds. It's black and white

It's called Death of the Author, Sandro is notorious for providing incorrect statements that directly contradict what's shown in the manga.

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

Speed isn't my wheelhouse as far as Kengan goes, but Gin's arguments check out, IMO.

Agree FRA.

 

[azontr]

Yeah I'm honestly still more convinced by Gin's arguments. My agreement stands.

 

[LordGinSama]

Will comment again sometime tomorrow.

 

[InfiniteDay]

I'll check over the arguments in full tomorrow when I actually get sleep.

 

[Xulrev]

I'm busy too Gin, so I'll just say this for right now:

We have explicit scans with narration objectively stating from the writer how quickly specific feats occur (reaction times, Cosmo's Zone, etc). Those are feats. Trying to claim we cannot accept statements that disagree with art is innately fallacious:

1. The claim is such that we disregard the author's narration, the one who made the world, and assume their art is correct while their statement is incorrect

2. This leads to a blatant formal logical fallacy, internal contradiction, since using death of the author literally is claiming the author is wrong....but the (author)art is correct for some inexplicable reason?

3. My assertion is non-fallacious due to the fact that I only have to presume the objectively-stated dialogue is correct, and has only one assumption.

4. Calc'ing the art and assuming it is of higher validity requires at least two assumptions (author is incorrect AND art is correct).

5. As a result, Occam's Razor would favor my side, and also my side doesn't have an internal contradiction, so it's logically superior.

All this to say you have to ignore every character's spoken word to accept the Kenganverse is supersonic which makes no sense and results in brain-dead characters whose every word is now irrefutably unacceptable, so all descriptions of feats can't be admissible either, so every calc still results in being bunk.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Neutral overall, but leaning towards LordGin's statements making more sense.

 

[Tllmbrg]

I think Xulre makes more sense
Considering Akyoma's entire deal is having high reaction speed and the other stuff yah

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

I'm just gonna add that even in Kengan Asura it has shown Ohma reacting to a Mach 1 attack with the narrative itself already stating that the attack is yes indeed Mach 1.

And that the narrative at chapter 81 in Kengan was about to say "No human can react to guns-" before Niko promptly performs such a feat.. I got the wrong chapter. I'll find it later. But this did happen

Edit - 48 5 there we go. The feat itself is beyond foresight when you're actively reacting to the bullet and timing your impact with it. Even with foresight you still move your body upon contact.

The fact that a sequel gets rid of previous scaling and original events of the past isn't really rare either. It's natural.

 

[Xulrev]

I'm just gonna add that even in Kengan Asura it has shown Ohma reacting to a Mach 1 attack with the narrative itself already stating that the attack is yes indeed Mach 1.

And that the narrative at chapter 81 in Kengan was about to say "No human can react to guns-" before Niko promptly performs such a feat.. I got the wrong chapter. I'll find it later. But this did happen

Edit - 48 5 there we go. The feat itself is beyond foresight when you're actively reacting to the bullet and timing your impact with it. Even with foresight you still move your body upon contact.

The fact that a sequel gets rid of previous scaling and original events of the past isn't really rare either. It's natural.

I already address this feat above, for one. A whip's tip goes supersonic for quite literally a couple milliseconds due to a loop coiling throughout the entirety of its length and then snapping. Reacting to the whip's tip is not a supersonic feat.

Also everyone in this thread continues to state that Omega retconned everything from Ashura and yet nobody can point me to where that is factual or accurate? Repeating it to make it true is a fallacy

 

[Xulrev]

No, your using completely different scans than the one I'm actually referring to. Xulrev, it's quite literally stated by Gaolang. Those little fox news style jabs aren't going to help your argument in the slightest.

You use this but didn't read my scan. Gaolang explicitly states, verbatim, "I can read you". He never once uses Flash to hit Medel. Your explicit claim was "Flash got so fast it can hit Foresight users". You then link Gaolang checking Medel with a jab, which occurs after my scan wherein he objectively claims to be reading Medel's boxing moves.

It's not a fox news style gotcha, it's actual facts.

Ignoring Foresight users and Rolon blitzing thr **** out of both Nicholas and Akoya. Yet I'm the one lying. Okay

Where does Rolon blitz them? He intercepts them while they're bear-hugging each other and half dead which you link as 'blitzing', they weren't even aware of his arrival, and then he one-shots two half dead guys. This is what they look like when he 'blitzes' them, even the announcer points out they're exhausted. If you really want to claim I'm being disingenuous and then use the word 'blitz' for slamming half-dead off-guard guys in the head who then blind-rage-charge at Rolon, be my guest. Also, Rolon has Foresight, they don't, so it's not raw reactions for him anyway?

given the fact that the goon starts shooting well before the green circle panel occurs.

I linked the entire panel with its full context and there's no indication he was shooting anywhere else other than my highlights.

Your literally riding statements whenever this wiki takes feats over statements.

Explicit narration given to put objective math on feats should always be accepted, the wiki doesn't make sense on that point as I posit above: if you ignore the omniscient narrator, you are simultaneously assuming "the author is wrong" and "the author is right" since you're denying the author's voice in making the work, but assuming their art is hyper-focused-objective-correct. It would be like looking at an optical illusion and being told by a neuroscience doctorate who created the illusion "It's just an illusion, here is how it works" and pointing at the illusion and telling him "Nope, that's actual, legitimate magic, look at it, I can point out how it's simply magic, the art is blatantly clear" and having 20 of your friends agree with you and telling the doctorate he's moronic for trying to give word of god on it as the creator, what a simpleton that moron is for not accepting objective visually-proven magic exists!

 

[Qawsedf234]

I'm with Xulrev here. We already went over before that we should take narration statements over art if they contradict since you have different people doing those things and the narrative statements do not support them throwing supersonic attacks or having hypersonic reactions. If anything the author goes out of his weigh to reinforce time limits in the 0.1 to 0.075-second range and people being superhuman for doing stuff like that.

 

[LordGinSama]

I'll make this quick since ill be driving for most of the day.


me and Xulrev talked about this privately last night more thoroughly off-site and we reached a pretty good comprise. Notable users of Foresight will receive something like this "Far higher via Foresight. (Users of Foresight are capable of reacting to attacks that are much faster than the user can naturally impossible to react to via normal means.) obviously somewhat paraphrasing here, Foresight is essentially a pseudo speed amp for these characters.

 

[Xulrev]

I'll make this quick since ill be driving for most of the day.


me and Xulrev talked about this privately last night more thoroughly off-site and we reached a pretty good comprise. Notable users of Foresight will receive something like this "Far higher via Foresight. (Users of Foresight are capable of reacting to attacks that are much faster than the user can naturally impossible to react to via normal means.) obviously somewhat paraphrasing here, Foresight is essentially a pseudo speed amp for these characters.

I will confirm I am okay with this since Foresight explicitly does just give those users better pre-movement capability and it is combat applicable.

But I was firm on not upgrading the raw speed of anyone in the verse. And the Medel scans needed calling out, let's be real.

 

[azontr]

Whatever yall agree with is fine for me, since my knowledge on the speed scaling of Kengan is barebones at best.

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

Foresight allowing users to react to attacks that are significantly above their reaction speed is consistent yeah. Both Kaneda and Kuroki have shown capable of reacting to moves that are normally FTE to them using their predictions.

If that’s what’s decided, I have no qualms about it.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

I'll make this quick since ill be driving for most of the day.


me and Xulrev talked about this privately last night more thoroughly off-site and we reached a pretty good comprise. Notable users of Foresight will receive something like this "Far higher via Foresight. (Users of Foresight are capable of reacting to attacks that are much faster than the user can naturally impossible to react to via normal means.) obviously somewhat paraphrasing here, Foresight is essentially a pseudo speed amp for these characters.

I will confirm I am okay with this since Foresight explicitly does just give those users better pre-movement capability and it is combat applicable.

But I was firm on not upgrading the raw speed of anyone in the verse. And the Medel scans needed calling out, let's be real.

Honestly that's a fair thing. Iirc Rihito, Kaneda, Kuroki, Ohma, Lolong, Gensai Kuroki, Carlos, Niko, should all reasonably scale well then? Was wondering if Gaolang would count too alongside anyone who performed aim dodging as a possibly.

And whoops did miss the whip thing. My bad

 

[azontr]

Honestly that's a fair thing. Iirc Rihito, Kaneda, Kuroki, Ohma, Lolong, Gensai Kuroki, Carlos, Niko, should all reasonably scale well then? Was wondering if Gaolang would count too alongside anyone who performed aim dodging as a possibly.

And whoops did miss the whip thing. My bad

I can agree with everyone else since I remember that, but, did Rihito ever learn Foresight? Why would he scale?

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

I can agree with everyone else since I remember that, but, did Rihito ever learn Foresight? Why would he scale?

He used it against the Weab Ninja but the Naruto fan knew how to counter Foresight. It was only when Rihito went "**** it imma just smack my way through it" did he start tagging him.

That said he might still be an amateur with it so I guess he's more on the possibly scale. That might change depending on his current match with Saw goes though.

 

[azontr]

I barely remember that fight lmfao- I desperately need to catch up with Omega.