Kefka vs Kafka

[DaReaperMan]

Honkai fans seem to be having too much fun. Let's change that.

Rules​

1. Speed is equalized.
2. Battle takes place in Kaas City on Dromund Kaas from SWTOR.
3. Kefka and Kafka are in base.
4. Both sides have prior knowledge on the other's appearance, hax/ability capabilities, but not sheer power.
5. Start 10 meters away.

Votes​

Kafka: 0

Kefka: 0

Why do they have basically the same name?: 0

 

[Mbpoops]

so does kefka start at H5-A?

 

[DaReaperMan]

so does kefka start at H5-A?

Yeah.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Wait... real question, at what point do madness manip and mind manip intersect and diverge?

 

[Mbpoops]

Wait... real question, at what point do madness manip and mind manip intersect and diverge?

madness manip = going insane or acting without rational thought

mind manip = just mind control or something similar

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

i mean... i think thats a massive mismatch her only wincon is mind manip

 

[Theglassman12]

Does Kafka have any answer to subjective reality-type magic?

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Does Kafka have any answer to subjective reality-type magic?

she doesnt have anything she has 1 ability

 

[Mbpoops]

Does Kafka have any answer to subjective reality-type magic?

nah

 

[DaReaperMan]

i mean... i think thats a massive mismatch her only wincon is mind manip

That and hitting him. She knows his ass is haxxy to hell.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

That and hitting him. She knows his ass is haxxy to hell.

stupid question 2 but idk how matchups work so deal with it: when we say speed equalization. what does this extend to? if someone has light attacks that SoL, does it bypass that?

 

[DaReaperMan]

stupid question 2 but idk how matchups work so deal with it: when we say speed equalization. what does this extend to? if someone has light attacks that SoL, does it bypass that?

Depends on their speed.

Speed equal rules reduce everything by the amount combat speed is reduced to the slower combatant. So for instance, if a Character is Rela+ with SoL attacks, and gets reduced to Supersonic, they still retain that attack speed advantage.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Depends on their speed.

Speed equal rules reduce everything by the amount combat speed is reduced to the slower combatant. So for instance, if a Character is Rela+ with SoL attacks, and gets reduced to Supersonic, they still retain that attack speed advantage.

I see I see. How experienced is he in combat? Sure, he's a mage or something but how would he handle himself in melee combat?

 

[DaReaperMan]

I see I see. How experienced is he in combat? Sure, he's a mage or something but how would he handle himself in melee combat?

In melee? Kefka's a ******' soldier. He prefers to sling spells first ask questions later though.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Alright. I took a better look at his profile. Subjective Magic seems to be wrongfully used there. The scans don't seem to support this. They simply talk about mages visualising things in their mind to focus and make them appear.. It's just... them using their imagination? As for the Devi's Road scan, it seems to be misinterpreted as well and it's just a pocket reality/dimension that connects the two cities. Secondly, as for madness manip, that seems to stem from his God form so it shouldn't be applicable and it should probably be seperated in the indexing. Unless there's something I missed and he has that ability in his base form as well. However, AFAIK, in FFXIV there aren't any classes with this kind of CC. So it's unlikely he has it there.

Seeing as his weakness seems to be his arrogance, I do believe he wouldn't take her seriously knowing how vast the difference between their abilities is. It's unlikely he'd start with his strongest insta-kill spells. Because of this and the fact that Kafka can use Spirit Whisper instantly just by speaking I believe Kafka would win. Even if it doesn't completely affect him and it's only enough to distract him briefly, 10 meters is enough time to close the gap. At that point, I doubt he'd be able to keep up with her martial superiority. Especially since she outstats him in AP. He doesn't seem to have any forcefields or shields, so it's unlikely he'd be able to defend against her onslaught of offense.

I really wonder how many verses would be completely nuked if they underwent the same scrutiny Hoyo did.

 

[Mbpoops]

Every verse needs a supernova55555 (i didnt read shit )

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Every verse needs a supernova55555 (i didnt read shit )

no hard feelings you tend to do that

 

[DaReaperMan]

Using one's imagination to make things happen is like, LITERALLY textbook definition subjective reality.

Also, since it seems like a good chunk of the argument is going against the profile, and this isn't a CRT, I'm not gonna be counting the vote. Debate the file, not what ya think the file should be.

 

[Theglassman12]

Ah yes, wrongfully used when the things they visualize in their head becomes reality and they have an entire training sequence when Palom's training a novice white mage on how to use basic magic in the series. By all means tell me how that's not subjective reality.

A pocket dimension that they made to remove the entire concept of time and merge the past, present and future, something made by people in a mage city to create a realm to fast travel from one location to another, again what about this is wrong?

Madness does not stem from his god form, he has the confuse spell from like his normal boss battle. Plus he commits mass genocide on the Espers and take all of their essence into himself granting him all of their magic long before he achieved godhood so these spells are still applicable to base Kefka. Also why are you bringing up FFXIV when Kefka barely has anything on his page that's even tied to XIV? You're just strawmanning what's on his page and what isn't.

Him not leading with his strongest instant kill spells is irrelevant when magic in FF period has Subjective Reality as the baseline for its power among several other things like Law Manipulation and Conceptual/Space-Time Manipulation. Any spell Kefka does on her would instantly screw her over, especially any basic elemental spells since they'll fry her nerves or warp her electrons to combust or freeze over to shatter instantly.

 

[Theglassman12]

Anyways I'm voting for Kefka, him being able to catch on with Kafka's ability would mean he'd likely just go with a clone to fight her off in the fight while trying to spam magic from a distance in a similar manner to what he did to General Leo, plus his own shadow clone can use the same kinds of magic he does so she'd have to deal with two Kefkas spamming instant win spells at once.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Using one's imagination to make things happen is like, LITERALLY textbook definition subjective reality.

Ah yes, wrongfully used when the things they visualize in their head becomes reality and they have an entire training sequence when Palom's training a novice white mage on how to use basic magic in the series. By all means tell me how that's not subjective reality.

A pocket dimension that they made to remove the entire concept of time and merge the past, present and future, something made by people in a mage city to create a realm to fast travel from one location to another, again what about this is wrong?

Um. That is definitely not the definition of Subjective Reality. Subjective Reality means someone's thoughts and perceptions including imagination directly determining the external world. If I imagine a castle, a castle would appear. Even in that video ("Palom's Tale"), the man tells the girl that she needs to visualize the spell to cast it. Not that the spell itself and magic itself stems from her imagination.

A pocket dimension can be altered according to the creator's whims. Including rewriting its laws. How is that "Subjective Reality"? At best it's just space manip which is what the other wiki suggests from the description. The properties of the environment are not properties of magic all over.

Madness does not stem from his god form, he has the confuse spell from like his normal boss battle. Plus he commits mass genocide on the Espers and take all of their essence into himself granting him all of their magic long before he achieved godhood so these spells are still applicable to base Kefka. Also why are you bringing up FFXIV when Kefka barely has anything on his page that's even tied to XIV? You're just strawmanning what's on his page and what isn't.

He can have the spell but not the resistance. Is it stated anywhere that he has it before his Ascension? I am not strawmanning anything...? The only stats I found for him in his base form are from FFXIV. So I am just questioning whether he has demonstrated the resistance in there as well since that is the only appearance of his base self with stats.

Him not leading with his strongest instant kill spells is irrelevant when magic in FF period has Subjective Reality as the baseline for its power among several other things like Law Manipulation and Conceptual/Space-Time Manipulation.

How is subjective reality an instant KO? It's just a way to use magic. It doesn't have any properties of its own. He can't spam an infinite array of spells all of the sudden just because he's thinking them. Does he not need to cast them???

Also, since it seems like a good chunk of the argument is going against the profile, and this isn't a CRT, I'm not gonna be counting the vote. Debate the file, not what ya think the file should be.

It also seems wrong and unfair of you to not count my vote on that non-rule-relevant basis? I gave an explanation on both why I think that ability of his seems misinterpreted and why I believe she would win. Even with it, he doesn't have any spells like Existence Erasure or Reality Warping. I still think she would win due to the reasons I explained. If it's such a problem to you, you can disregard the first paragraph.

 

[Mbpoops]

no hard feelings you tend to do that

the verse looks much better now ngl

 

[DaReaperMan]

Um. That is definitely not the definition of Subjective Reality. Subjective Reality means someone's thoughts and perceptions including imagination directly determining the external world. If I imagine a castle, a castle would appear. Even in that video ("Palom's Tale"), the man tells the girl that she needs to visualize the spell to cast it. Not that the spell itself and magic itself stems from her imagination.

...That's... that's literally how magic works for Kefka. You say this like it needs to be a passive effect, and it just... doesn't. Even me, someone who frankly doesn't really care about the story of Final Fantasy,(I'm a major casual, just like how I am with Hoyoverse stuff) can get that. If Kefka's thought is imagining turning this woman to ice that then shatters, then that's the reality imposed on the world.

Just because "reality" isn't mentioned doesn't make it not that hax, it's one's will/imagination being imposed on the world to cast magic. If that isn't subjective reality, what is it? Reality Warping?

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

...That's... that's literally how magic works for Kefka. You say this like it needs to be a passive effect, and it just... doesn't. Even me, someone who frankly doesn't really care about the story of Final Fantasy,(I'm a major casual, just like how I am with Hoyoverse stuff) can get that. If Kefka's thought is imagining turning this woman to ice that then shatters, then that's the reality imposed on the world.

Just because "reality" isn't mentioned doesn't make it not that hax, it's one's will/imagination being imposed on the world to cast magic. If that isn't subjective reality, what is it? Reality Warping?

The scans don't seem to support Subjective Reality. If he can simply cast spells instantly with his mind, that's still not it.

Anyway. If he has spells that aren't projectiles and can affect her before she can snap her fingers or speak, then she loses. Which at this point, I am not sure how it isn't a stomp then if her wincons aren't practically possible.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Him not leading with his strongest instant kill spells is irrelevant when magic in FF period has Subjective Reality as the baseline for its power among several other things like Law Manipulation and Conceptual/Space-Time Manipulation. Any spell Kefka does on her would instantly screw her over, especially any basic elemental spells since they'll fry her nerves or warp her electrons to combust or freeze over to shatter instantly.

The law manipulation doesn't really add much here. Manipulating the natural order of things to launch a fireball isn't really different from just a generic "fireball" spell, and law manipulation resistance isn't needed to withstand it. You wouldn't need resistance to conceptual manipulation to withstand it either, its not like all of Kefka's basic spells remove the concept of space-time from an opponent. Kafka has resistance to freezing and burning and idk how strong it is, but if the freeze status in Honkai Star Rail is treated as freezing you in a block of ice then Kafka should be able to resist it since that would also warp electrons

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

The law manipulation doesn't really add much here. Manipulating the natural order of things to launch a fireball isn't really different from just a generic "fireball" spell, and law manipulation resistance isn't needed to withstand it. You wouldn't need resistance to conceptual manipulation to withstand it either, its not like all of Kefka's basic spells remove the concept of space-time from an opponent. Kafka has resistance to freezing and burning and idk how strong it is, but if the freeze status in Honkai Star Rail is treated as freezing you in a block of ice then Kafka should be able to resist it since that would also warp electrons

That's what I was saying basically. And good point on status effects.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Hypertornado099 Law Manipulation isn’t the only thing I’m using for the win con, Subjective reality is what I’m focusing on and Final Fantasy doesn’t treat fire spells as launching a fire ball, it’s warping your electrons to make it too fast you’re set on fire or too slow to the point you freeze and shatter.

@Nighting4l33yes His resistance comes from resisting the effects in game since he can shrug off nearly every status ailment type of move in game. That’s where it comes from, so trying to cast mind or madness hax on Kefka won’t work with his innate resistances.

Simple, Kefka imagines Kafka is set on fire instantly via electrons in her body being warped or her freezing into a statue via her electrons being warped of her nerves being targeted directly via lightning spells and she falls over. She has no resistances to these effects and especially not the basic aspect of it. You just saying it’s not Subjective Reality isn’t an argument since that’s what’s accepted on the page. You don’t like it? Make a CRT

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

@Nighting4l33yes His resistance comes from resisting the effects in game since he can shrug off nearly every status ailment type of move in game. That’s where it comes from, so trying to cast mind or madness hax on Kefka won’t work with his innate resistances.

His profile doesn't mention Mind Manip Res. Just Madness Manip. She is also immunte to both burning and freezing. Including paralysis inducement.

 

[Doggo]

How does Kefka use Subjective Reality in an offensive manner?