KAWAKI IS FAST!!

[karo_senpaii]

This is a short and simple thread. Base Kawaki after loss of karma or to be accurate 80+% extracted karma kawaki scales to the god tiers in speed. As shown in his battle against borushiki here he was able to react block and counter him and also here he was able to fight and even clash with him again. Granted he was overpowered pretty easily but that's just him lacking in ap. He's clearly relative in speed. In fact the anime even makes it clearer showing them exchange moves multiple times until he was overpowered.

As supporting evidence a kawaki who was caught off guard and was concerned about boruto suddenly collapsing was still able to succesfully guard himself from karma code in the anime here, sure enough he got blasted away coz he was weak but he was clearly able to put his hands up and guard his vitals even though he was completely caught off guard..


Does this cause inconsistencies in scaling? Nope, only boruto scales to him. No one else has fought kawaki after his karma had been extracted to that point based on my knowledge. TBV eventually has a few others scaling to it but there aren't any profiles so for now only boruto and kawaki PTS would be affected.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

It seems acceptable.

 

[Testarossa002]

Not casting anything definitive but it's rather sus if Kawaki ends up scaling to Borushiki in base even though he was still on par with the same Borushiki after getting Karma back
Also:

• Mitsuki and Sarada can react to his attacks (Chapter 58)
• Shinki no-diffs him in the anime
• A random academy teacher also keeps up with him
• There's also this

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Not casting anything definitive but it's rather sus if Kawaki ends up scaling to Borushiki in base even though he was still on par with the same Borushiki after getting Karma back
Also:

• Mitsuki and Sarada can react to his attacks (Chapter 58)
• Shinki no-diffs him in the anime
• A random academy teacher also keeps up with him
• There's also this

Honestly, the longer a series is, the more inconsistencies it will have, especially with scaling... But yeah, I am curious to see how this will go, following.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Not casting anything definitive but it's rather sus if Kawaki ends up scaling to Borushiki in base even though he was still on par with the same Borushiki after getting Karma back
Also:

• Mitsuki and Sarada can react to his attacks (Chapter 58)
• Shinki no-diffs him in the anime
• A random academy teacher also keeps up with him
• There's also this

Ok so I was of the opinion that anime episode after baryon mode especially the fillers were not accepted as canon but if it is then fine.

Here is the thing. The manga is always the primary canon, and it clearly depicts kawaki as being able to keep up with borushiki in speed. Now as for if it is Sus since V2 kawaki was still a match for borushiki?
Well Borushiki was low on chakra. He scales to a weakened Sasuke who just downscales to the GT speed value. Keep in mind there is a lot of scaling chains on this speed value so kawaki here is like bottom of the pile .


As for the anime inconsistencies sorry but if it's contradicting the manga then we should just ignore it. It's a secondary canon , not to mention asides shinki the rest are just randoms who don't even have profiles. Clearly the studio after kodachi left took leeway on how kawaki is meant to be portrayed.

The only manga example here is sarada and mitsuki which honestly may not even be an antifeat. But I just think in chpt 58 he wasn't necessarily going at top speed initially. Characters don't always have to use their full speed especially when clearly Kawaki was trying to stimulate training by combat. He isn't gonna unleash his first move as the strongest and fastest immediately. To further buttress my point, in the same chapter just a few panels later after mitsuki and sarada dodged his first attack, the second time he attacked sarada she was completely unable to react and it took boruto intercepting to save her. A few chapters later, that's a chapter before omnipotence, base kawaki again attacked sarada and she was completely unable to react and boruto had to step in and save her again, that's how he got his scar. So clearly the way the manga treats kawaki is different than the anime here

 

[Arkenis]

here

Not reacting here. Borushiki is reacting to him.

here

Idk how you guys scale, but all he did was throw shurikens, that shouldn't be relative to his combat speed? If it is then okay but that's just reaction speed.

As supporting evidence a kawaki who was caught off guard and was concerned about boruto suddenly collapsing was still able to succesfully guard himself from karma code in the anime here, sure enough he got blasted away coz he was weak but he was clearly able to put his hands up and guard his vitals even though he was completely caught off guard..

Does base Code really scale to god tiers?

 

[karo_senpaii]

Not reacting here. Borushiki is reacting to him.



Idk how you guys scale, but all he did was throw shurikens, that shouldn't be relative to his combat speed? If it is then okay but that's just reaction speed.


Does base Code really scale to god tiers?

Yes shurikens scale to your attack speed, also as I said the anime further shows this and the exchange blows multiple times, it's more than just reaction speed.


Finally that's WK code. Not that it matters coz base code still scales to the gt

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Ok so I was of the opinion that anime episode after baryon mode especially the fillers were not accepted as canon but if it is then fine.

This was accepted on CRT, but if there's a contradiction, we should prioritize the manga. That's what was accepted anyway. Therefore, the Kagura arc and Chunin Exam II shouldn't be considered anti-arguments.

 

[karo_senpaii]

This was accepted on CRT, but if there's a contradiction, we should prioritize the manga. That's what was accepted anyway. Therefore, the Kagura arc and Chunin Exam II shouldn't be considered anti-arguments.

Glad to see "as long as it doesn't contradict the manga" on the CRT

 

[Testarossa002]

Ok so I was of the opinion that anime episode after baryon mode especially the fillers were not accepted as canon but if it is then fine.

Here is the thing. The manga is always the primary canon, and it clearly depicts kawaki as being able to keep up with borushiki in speed. Now as for if it is Sus since V2 kawaki was still a match for borushiki?
Well Borushiki was low on chakra. He scales to a weakened Sasuke who just downscales to the GT speed value. Keep in mind there is a lot of scaling chains on this speed value so kawaki here is like bottom of the pile .


As for the anime inconsistencies sorry but if it's contradicting the manga then we should just ignore it. It's a secondary canon , not to mention asides shinki the rest are just randoms who don't even have profiles. Clearly the studio after kodachi left took leeway on how kawaki is meant to be portrayed.

The only manga example here is sarada and mitsuki which honestly may not even be an antifeat. But I just think in chpt 58 he wasn't necessarily going at top speed initially. Characters don't always have to use their full speed especially when clearly Kawaki was trying to stimulate training by combat. He isn't gonna unleash his first move as the strongest and fastest immediately. To further buttress my point, in the same chapter just a few panels later after mitsuki and sarada dodged his first attack, the second time he attacked sarada she was completely unable to react and it took boruto intercepting to save her. A few chapters later, that's a chapter before omnipotence, base kawaki again attacked sarada and she was completely unable to react and boruto had to step in and save her again, that's how he got his scar. So clearly the way the manga treats kawaki is different than the anime here

Sarada couldn't react because she got tricked by his use of shadow clone, not because of sheer speed
All team 7 members pre boruto's dna rewrite are relative to each other. Nobody is faster than anybody by 1000x.
Mitsuki is also right there.

Scaling Kawaki to Code is also flawed.
Code was comfortably keeping up with Karma Boruto, who is significantly faster than base Boruto
Your intended chain would then look like this:

Code ~ Kawaki = Boruto < Karma Boruto ~< Code

Aka circular scaling

Even worse when you consider that both Borushiki and Code were actively trying not to kill Kawaki for their separate reasons. One needs him as a sacrifice, and the other needs him alive due to Eida's request


One last thing, anime is to be used side by side with the manga. It's only when there are discrepancies in the same adaptation (vs Momoshiki arc) that the manga takes priority. There's no manga equivalent to the anime feats above. We cannot scale Sarada's Chidori to be 100x her base and then turn around to discard other feats that happen in the same arc just because.

Tl;Dr
I disagree with the revision

 

[karo_senpaii]

Sarada couldn't react because she got tricked by his use of shadow clone, not because of sheer speed
All team 7 members pre boruto's dna rewrite are relative to each other. Nobody is faster than anybody by 1000x.
Mitsuki is also right there.

Scaling Kawaki to Code is also flawed.
Code was comfortably keeping up with Karma Boruto, who is significantly faster than base Boruto
Your intended chain would then look like this:

Aka circular scaling

Even worse when you consider that both Borushiki and Code were actively trying not to kill Kawaki for their separate reasons. One needs him as a sacrifice, and the other needs him alive due to Eida's request


One last thing, anime is to be used side by side with the manga. It's only when there are discrepancies in the same adaptation (vs Momoshiki arc) that the manga takes priority. There's no manga equivalent to the anime feats above. We cannot scale Sarada's Chidori to be 100x her base and then turn around to discard other feats that happen in the same arc just because.

Tl;Dr
I disagree with the revision

She very clearly saw kawaki behind her and even shows this through her eyes, yet she couldn't react to dodge. Not to mention this same thing happened again. Team 7 were relative prior to that point sure but we don't know how much difference kawaki is from the last time they fought against Boro and then. Even so you really feel they both scale at full power sure no problem. You say code and borushiki have reasons not to go all out yet ignore when I give reasons for why Kawaki in training doesn't have to go full speed off the bat.


By the way both code and borushiki don't want to kill him sure hence why they would want to hold back in ap but they definitely want to knock the F out of him. Especially code, like no way code is holding back in speed against kawaki, borushiki also wanted to wrap things up and take kawaki away to be his sacrifice, he's not purposely going slow enough for kawaki to react to him.

You're creating weird scaling chains yourself. Not only does kawaki downscale but in the same chapter 58 kawaki has no problem reacting to boruto karma powered lightning style, shame he just forgot he didn't have karma and tried to absorb instead of dodging it. So clearly it's karma boruto≥ kawaki ~base boruto

Finally yeah you yourself says they are contradictions and cited examples of no name characters that exist nowhere in the manga except shinki. If they cause scaling problems yeah we can easily discard it

 

[Nierre]

While I agree with the premise of the CRT, I have my own issues with Momoshiki's scaling. I agree that Kawaki is relative to Momoshiki here, although clearly inferior, but my issue here is Borushiki scaling to tier 5.

For starters, Momoshiki's profile is severely outdated, which is something I keep forgetting to work on (I'll get to it soon), but another thing is on Boruto's profile where it indexes Borushiki's feats, he scales to Tier 5 for the Rasengan he killed Boro with and Delta's statement of it being superior to Sasuke. Not only does that just not scale to his physicals, but it also only scales to Momoshiki after absorbing Naruto's chakra. He doesn't scale to that normally. His next best feat is fighting Boro (who is Tier 6) and weakened Sasuke.

Now for Sasuke in this mini skirmish, he performs damn near the same if not barely better than Kawaki. The only feat he has here is harming Momoshiki with Lightning Release. Weakened Sasuke is so incredibly weak here that hes worried about his chakra levels after lightning release and Amaterasu. He's obviously not at his full power here, not even close. It makes no sense that we assume this Sasuke even remotely scales close to Tier 5 when he's struggling against Momoshiki here, someone who Kawaki is unironically putting up with: blocking his attacks, countering him before Momoshiki can reach him. This Sasuke obviously doesn't have a key, but if he did he should be scaling to Momoshiki.

As for the Karma point Testarossa brings up, we see that Karma isn't actually that big of an amp in this point of the story, as the OP mentioned, Kawaki is able to react to Karma Boruto's Lightning Jutsu, and not only that, Sarada and Mitsuki are able to keep up, fight and even harm Boro who's able to weave handsigns before the Karma bros can harm him. Naruto implies it's a boost when he spars with Boruto, but we see in practice that the boost isn't that significant.

What this gives us is this: Weakened Sasuke >~ Momoshiki (Fought and killed Boro) >~ Kawaki (Comparable to Boruto)

So basically Kawaki isn't the one who scales to Momoshiki, Momoshiki scales to (and above) Kawaki.

(An issue comes up regarding Code, as Momoshiki is superior to Code, and Code is rated as Tier 5, but I also have problems with that which goes way beyond the scope of this thread, so I'll refrain).

So while the OP is correct, it's based on faulty scaling logic that I don't agree with.

 

[Kaydee1648]

iirc there was a time we used to scale kawaki speed to that version of momoshiki
but yeah, nierre FRA
this sasuke is not so different from the one that fought Urashiki

 

[karo_senpaii]

While I agree with the premise of the CRT, I have my own issues with Momoshiki's scaling. I agree that Kawaki is relative to Momoshiki here, although clearly inferior, but my issue here is Borushiki scaling to tier 5.

For starters, Momoshiki's profile is severely outdated, which is something I keep forgetting to work on (I'll get to it soon), but another thing is on Boruto's profile where it indexes Borushiki's feats, he scales to Tier 5 for the Rasengan he killed Boro with and Delta's statement of it being superior to Sasuke. Not only does that just not scale to his physicals, but it also only scales to Momoshiki after absorbing Naruto's chakra. He doesn't scale to that normally. His next best feat is fighting Boro (who is Tier 6) and weakened Sasuke.

Now for Sasuke in this mini skirmish, he performs damn near the same if not barely better than Kawaki. The only feat he has here is harming Momoshiki with Lightning Release. Weakened Sasuke is so incredibly weak here that hes worried about his chakra levels after lightning release and Amaterasu. He's obviously not at his full power here, not even close. It makes no sense that we assume this Sasuke even remotely scales close to Tier 5 when he's struggling against Momoshiki here, someone who Kawaki is unironically putting up with: blocking his attacks, countering him before Momoshiki can reach him. This Sasuke obviously doesn't have a key, but if he did he should be scaling to Momoshiki.

As for the Karma point Testarossa brings up, we see that Karma isn't actually that big of an amp in this point of the story, as the OP mentioned, Kawaki is able to react to Karma Boruto's Lightning Jutsu, and not only that, Sarada and Mitsuki are able to keep up, fight and even harm Boro who's able to weave handsigns before the Karma bros can harm him. Naruto implies it's a boost when he spars with Boruto, but we see in practice that the boost isn't that significant.

What this gives us is this: Weakened Sasuke >~ Momoshiki (Fought and killed Boro) >~ Kawaki (Comparable to Boruto)

So basically Kawaki isn't the one who scales to Momoshiki, Momoshiki scales to (and above) Kawaki.

(An issue comes up regarding Code, as Momoshiki is superior to Code, and Code is rated as Tier 5, but I also have problems with that which goes way beyond the scope of this thread, so I'll refrain).

So while the OP is correct, it's based on faulty scaling logic that I don't agree with.

See I'm mostly with you. But the issue is I'm talking about speed here and not ap.


We know Sasuke has enough chakra to use both lightning release and amaterasu so he has no issue with amping his speed here. At the worst I can see a case of downscaling a weakened Sasuke to baseline ftl+ but that's it.

Also I don't think it's fair to compare borushiki that way.
1. Momoshiki didn't take kurama chakra to refill his. He took a small portion and noted "this should be enough". Denoting that he didn't take as much chakra as enough to fill his tank but just the one he felt necessary enough to finish Boro. This means a full powered borushiki is just > the borushiki that defeated Boro.

2.borushiki against Boro was at like close to zero chakra. In fact he almost fell the minute he appeared just due to low chakra. The one that appeared after ishikki death had more chakra and was in better condition. Not to mention karma was more processed.

I'm not necessary arguing about ap here. I just felt it necessary to add that

 

[Nierre]

You believe Sasuke should downscale because...? Like I said he is not even close to operating at his best, even before firing a fireball jutsu he almost falls over and he has to catch himself, there's 0 justification to downscale him to FTL+, he just shouldn't be at that level period. Even if he could amp his speed (which if he could, he probably would've but that's neither here nor there), there's nothing that suggests he should be capable of amping his speed up to FTL+ when he's this beaten and weak

 

[karo_senpaii]

You believe Sasuke should downscale because...? Like I said he is not even close to operating at his best, even before firing a fireball jutsu he almost falls over and he has to catch himself, there's 0 justification to downscale him to FTL+, he just shouldn't be at that level period. Even if he could amp his speed (which if he could, he probably would've but that's neither here nor there), there's nothing that suggests he should be capable of amping his speed up to FTL+ when he's this beaten and weak

Sharing an active, used shunshin, used lightning style and then amaterasu. It was after all this he stumbled for a bit and then still said "if I'm not careful I'll run out of chakra first" and then proceeded to use fire style.
Not saying he's perfectly fine but that's plenty.

 

[karo_senpaii]

If he's as weak as you claim he should not even be able to use his sharingan. He not only used 3 tomoe at first but then still activated ems. Borushiki being able to avoid his amaterasu which simply scales to his ms perception speed is enough for him to scale to ftl+

 

[Nierre]

I'm not seeing Sunshine there at all, but either way I still disagree with arbitrarily downscaling Sasuke to FTL+ and by extension upscaling base Kawaki that high.

 

[karo_senpaii]

I'm not seeing Sunshine there at all, but either way I still disagree with arbitrarily downscaling Sasuke to FTL+ and by extension upscaling base Kawaki that high.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. But what I'm saying is doujtsu perception doesn't change regardless of where your combat speed is. Sasuke ems perception will always remain ftl+, which is what amaterasu scales off from so dodging it repeatedly at least gives borushiki that level of speed