Kakuzu's possibly High 6-C.

[Unforgiven0815]

I'm sorry, but this just sounds like a lot of bs to me. We have no clues how much Kakuzu contributed in the fight against Yugito. All he saw was Hida finishing his ritual.




Kakuzu did not take the Tailed Beast Bomb head on. Look at his clothes when he got smacked to the ground and attacked by a TBB and when Hidan finished his ritual. There is no damage to it. Even if he did tank the attack, he would have some torn clothes. What speaks against that he just used a Substitution Jutsu to escape the attack before it got him?

If we was truly that strong, then he would've completely fodderized Kakashi, Naruto, etc. without even needing Hidan to be there to deal with someone.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

That wasn't even a TBB, just some large fireball. But yeah, there's no way Kakuzu is 6-C with his performance against Kakashi, Naruto, Ino and Choji.

 

[Frantzy12]

6-C my ass lol

 

[Webcamparrot]

I don't think you are fully understanding the context of this fight at all. Firstly yes that is a Bijuu bomb the onyl reason it looks different to the other Bijuu bombs is because this is the first time a Bijuu bomb appears in the series and so the art for the attack changes later. Secondly Bijuu are durable enough to tank their own Bijuu bombs (see Gyuuki even the justification on Matatabi's page uses this) and the Bijuu are capable of hurting each other like when Son Goku and Killer B in tailed beast mode were fighting. Kakuzu blatantly tanks an attack from Yugito in her perfect Jinchuriki state without even budging.


Further more Kakuzu absolutely does tank that Bijuu bomb directly to the face. This is because Yugito traps Hidan and Kakuzu underground with her using paper bombs. There is absolutely no way he could have possibly used a substitution jutsu to dodge the effect especially when you see how large it is. The entire underground complex and most of the mountain above is completely blasted apart.It's complete headcanon to assume that Kakuzu used substitution jutsu here especially when we never see him use it in character at any point in the series.


Here is Yugito trapping the both of them.


Here is the entire complex being destroyed.


Here is a scan of the aftermath of the battle. Notice how the mountains are completely decimated now.

Now let's talk about Kakuzu and Hidan fighting Kakashi and the others. Only 3 things actually do ANY damage to Kakuzu in this fight. The first is Kakashi's chidori which he uses to nail Kakuzu whilst he's trapped by shadow possession jutsu. As you are hopefully aware Kakuzu's earth spear jutsu which increases his defences is explicitly weak to lightning which is why this hurt him at all. Also this fails to do any significant damage to Kakuzu at all as we immediately see him get up and kick kakashi through the entire row of trees behind him. The only thing this attack did is crack one of Kakuzu's masks because they were still on his back at the time.


Kakuzu after the chidori alive and well with the exception of his lightning mask.

The second thing that harms him in this fight is when Shikamaru gets blood from when Kakashi used his chidori and tricks Hidan into destroying one of Kakuzus hearts.

What finally finishes off Kakuzu here is Naruto's wind style rasengan which as I hopefully do not have to prove ignores conventional durability by attacking the cells directly. None of these occasions are in conflict with Kakuzu's large island level scaling as they all either utilize a weakness or ignore his conventional durability all together. Not to mention that during the fight it was blatantly demonstrated that Kakuzu was far stronger than any of them. The entire troop was absolutely terrified of his attacks and couldn't do anything to him until Naruto turned up. Kakuzu was even holding himself back against Kakashi because he wanted to replace the heart he lost with Kakashi's so he avoided killing him outright. Unless I am misremembering virtually no one is actually hit by Kakuzu during this fight either with the exception of Kakashi surviving his kick which you could easily put down to PIS or an outlier.

Adding onto this Kakuzu and Hidan were also confirmed to have captured the 7 tails Jinchuriki Fuu in the anime. We don't see the fight but it would be weird to argue that Kakuzu shouldn't scale to this at all considering his only way of fighting that we have seen is via brute strength. The 3rd guidebook also mentions that one of the techniques that Kakuzu uses with his hearts produces flames with "sufficient explosive combustive force to turn the surrounding areas into a charred wasteland" and is also described as reducing things to ash instantly which should qualify for vaporisation (which would make the feat more impressive) I can do a calc on it if needs be. I have a gif of a lesser version (as only the fire heart is involved in this particular instance rather than both the fire and wind style hearts) of this technique being used during the fight that should demonstrate that this is not hyperbole to any degree. Hopefully I will be able to post it.

I actually plan on making a larger revision thread for a lot of the current Naruto mid tiers like Kisame and the 4th Raikage as well as hopefulyl some others as they are grossly downplayed currently. I understand that it seems odd for Kakuzu to be at this level given that he is taken out quite early into Shippuden but hopefully what I have shown you here demonstrates that this IS justified.

 

[Webcamparrot]

Here is the guidebook scan I mentioned earlier.

Here is the link to the gif hopefully this works: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...17156610/e3c6d92113551d48dd62c56b8730f610.mp4

I also want to mention that the only panel we see after the beast bomb is used is much later in the day after Yugito is defeated. He easily could have changed clothes. Plus as you are already aware this clothes logic does not really work in most fictions. Goku and plenty of other characters should have their clothes blasted away but don't for the sake of modesty and either way a slight art inconsistently is not really a very good debunk.

 

[Golden_Void]

Before they fought Yugito, Kakuzu put all responsibility on capturing her on Hidan. However when they started fighting, there was a giant cutscene and we see Yugito beat up. Tailed beasts are heavily nerfed and inconsistent until the war arc.

And Parrot is mistaken. That's clearly a fireball, not a TBB. Furthermore, the diameter of the blast is only about the size of the 2 tails's head, and Hidan dodged it.

Plus damage Hidan takes in his skeleton looking form = damage to Yugito. We don't know if he basically made her kill herself or not.

Even further proof...you can see his skeleton mode deactivate after finishing Yugito off, chapter 313.

Shikamaru explains the jutsu in 325:

"In short...if he can inflict even a single shallow abrasion, his jutsu will then cause his opponent's certain death"

If even the slightest amount of blood got on his scythe and he ate it, that is when he would change into that form. Plus, he has complete damage transferring inside the circle.

 

[Webcamparrot]

It doesn't matter if Kakuzu was putting responsibility on Hidan to caputre Yugito when there are blatant scans of Kakuzu directly taking hits from her in her tailed beast state.

The tailed beasts being inconsistent is something that I'm going to ask you to prove but either way it's irrelevant because that only matters if they are inconsistent with regards to Kakuzu and I've already provided arguments that they are not inconsistent that would need to be refuted first.

I'm going to quote myself on the "fireball" thing because what you said is not a rebuttal. "Firstly yes that is a Bijuu bomb the onyl reason it looks different to the other Bijuu bombs is because this is the first time a Bijuu bomb appears in the series and so the art for the attack changes later." You simply pointing out that the art is different is not actually directed at my point.

Hidan did not dodge the blast because the entire complex was destroyed by it along with most of the mountain. Hidan and Kakuzu were both in the underground complex I proved both of those things in my original comment already so this is also not a rebuttal. I'll post the scans I used again for you so you have an easier time understanding this argument.


Here is Yugito trapping the both of them.


Here is the entire complex being destroyed.


Here is a scan of the aftermath of the battle. Notice how the mountains are completely decimated now.

 

[Webcamparrot]

Also responding to your edit on Hidans skeleton appearance. It doesn't matter if Hidan finished her off. I directly showed Kakuzu tanking hits from Yugito even prior to him activating his blood effect. It doesn't matter who finished her off.

 

[Golden_Void]

"It doesn't matter if Kakuzu was putting responsibility on Hidan to caputre Yugito when there are blatant scans of Kakuzu directly taking hits from her in her tailed beast state."

She literally smacked Kakuzu down under the weight of her paw. By that logic, Gamabunta scales above 100% Kurama since Minato summoned him on top of the fox and he managed to keep it pinned down.

What's funnier is you saying he tanked it without budging, when he clearly offered resistance and got overpowered.

"The tailed beasts being inconsistent is something that I'm going to ask you to prove but either way it's irrelevant because that only matters if they are inconsistent with regards to Kakuzu and I've already provided arguments that they are not inconsistent that would need to be refuted first."

1. The example above

2. Gamabunta holding his own against Part 1 Gaara in full on tailed beast mode despite him saying before the fight that trying to fight him was idiotic, and stating he has crazy amounts of chakra and couldn't take too many blows from him

3. Deidara casually destroying a jinchuuriki-less 3 tails with a single basic clay bomb, despite needing a full arsenal + a 20 kilometer wide nuke for Sasuke

4. Gamabunta literally pinning 100% Kurama under his weight

5. Kisame soloing the 4 tails with no apparent damage (we never see the fight, just him hauling Roshi around)

"Firstly yes that is a Bijuu bomb the onyl reason it looks different to the other Bijuu bombs is because this is the first time a Bijuu bomb appears in the series and so the art for the attack changes later." You simply pointing out that the art is different is not actually directed at my point."

If you paid attention to the series, and used your eyes, you'd know the first bijuu bomb shown was in chapter 295 (Naruto v Orochimaru), and not the blatantly obvious fireball in this chapter, 313. Even the anime shows its a fireball. The art is not different, you're either blatantly trying to wank the feat or you can't see.

"Hidan did not dodge the blast because the entire complex was destroyed by it along with most of the mountain. Hidan and Kakuzu were both in the underground complex I proved both of those things in my original comment already so this is also not a rebuttal. I'll post the scans I used again for you so you have an easier time understanding this argument."

But he did. He dodged the initial blast which busted the building, and is shown with virtually no damage besides a few scruff marks. Given that a single fireball was capable of busting a building, its likely that she kept spamming the technique, otherwise the entire area would be leveled, not random bits and pieces being destroyed.

These arguments are foolishness. Not to mention that an amped Kakuzu got destroyed by a town level rasenshuriken.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

-snip-

These arguments are foolishness. Not to mention that an amped Kakuzu got destroyed by a town level rasenshuriken.

To be fair, the Rasenshuriken attacks on a cellular level, otherwise I agree with your post.

 

[Golden_Void]

To be fair, the Rasenshuriken attacks on a cellular level, otherwise I agree with your post.

Yeah but on the other hand, if Kakuzu got hit with a TBB like Shikamaru's dad getting hit by the Juubi's, there would be nothing left of him.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

To be fair, the Rasenshuriken attacks on a cellular level, otherwise I agree with your post.

Yeah but on the other hand, if Kakuzu got hit with a TBB like Shikamaru's dad getting hit by the Juubi's, there would be nothing left of him.

True that. I mean, there is a fair bit of gap between the Juubi's AP and the AP of the other bijuu, but as concerns Kakuzu tanking a TBB? Nah, not gonna happen.

 

[Mindovin]

@UMR

3. Deidara casually destroying a jinchuuriki-less 3 tails with a single basic clay bomb, despite needing a full arsenal + a 20 kilometer wide nuke for Sasuke

This is not true as most likely Obito defeats the 3-tails with his jutsu.

He couldn't harm Sasuke, not because of his durability but Sasuke able to see his bombs with his Sharingan and defuse it with lighting which itself weakness of the Deidara's technique.

 

[Golden_Void]

This is not true as most likely Obito defeats the 3-tails with his jutsu.

He couldn't harm Sasuke, not because of his durability but Sasuke able to see his bombs with his Sharingan and defuse it with lighting which itself weakness of the Deidara's technique.

Here we see Deidara's jutsu launch the 3 tails out of the water

Deidara corrects him and says he did all the heavy lifting, so he was taking sole credit. All we see from Tobi is him running away from the beast.

As for not being able to harm Sasuke, he did multiple times, though nothing that put Sasuke out of commission permanently, but enough to heavily damage CS2 Sasuke and destroy a wing he used to shield himself.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Here's some pages from the colored manga: Image 1 and Image 2


Considering that the stone in front of Hidan was melting it looks more like a fireball than a TBB

 

[Webcamparrot]

To respond to your first point yes Kakuzu should scale to Yugito swiping her paw at him as hard as she can. The Gamabunta example is bad because the nine tails immediately throws him off and there are other things to contradict Gamabunta being that strong, these same contradictions don't exist for Kakuzu as I demonstrated. There is absolutely nothing to suggest he was over powered he clearly stops that hit. The scan you posted is the scan I've been using this whole time and it shows Kakuzu catching Yugito's paw.

As for the tailed beasts being inconsistent.

1. This is circular reasoning. I'm saying that Kakuzu taking hits from Yugito is a valid way to scale him. You responded saying that the Bijuu are inconsistent. I asked you to prove this and you are currently responding with "because Kakuzu took hits from Yugito". That's not a valid chain of logic. Your own point can't support itself.

2. There are a few things wrong with this. The first being that Gaara is not a perfect Jinchuriki in fact he has terrible control of his tailed beast in much the same way that Naruto doesn't at this point. Gamabunta is also not doing well against Shukaku at all he literally gets slapped away by air blasts casually and is completely unable to deal with Shukaku at all. He needs an amp from Naruto just to stand a chance and even then he's still unable to fight this weaker Shukaku. The thing that actually ends the fight is Gaara being exposed and Naruto headbutting him into unconsciousness. Gamabunta was hardly prevailing over Shukaku nor was he comparable to him on any level. On top of that it's literally stated in those same episodes that Shukaku is not at full strength prior to Gamabunta turning into Kurama and is described as increasing in power afterwards, even after the amp Gamabunta/Kurama is still extremely worried about fighting him.

3. Firstly Deidara is fighting a 3 tails without a host which massively weakens it. Secondly your description of the way the fight goes down is outright incorrect. Deidara first uses a massive handful of his spider bombs to blow up the entire lake and then he uses a huge fish bomb and has it blow up directly next to the 3 tails head. The scene cuts away and when we come back the 3 tails comes to the surface with Tobi ontop of it who then claims he one shot the 3 tailks with his jutsu. Deidara disagrees and then the tailed beast suddenly splashes up again scaring Tobi as the scene cuts away. When it cuts back the 3 tails is defeated. So no Deidara did not defeat the 3 tails with "some basic clay bombs". Additionally his issues with Sasuke did not involve Sasukes durability and you know it. You make it sound like Sasuke would tank the attacks that Deidara used against the 3 tails but he would not. He was an issue because he kept disarming Deidaras bombs or just outright avoiding them altogether. Deidara even admits after fighting the 3 tails that the reason it was so easy to defeat is because it was weaker without a host and was wild and uncontrolled.

4.Gamabunta being able to pin the Nine tails is firstly the same as the difference between lifting strength and AP secondly as I already mentioned Gamabunta is unsuccessful in keeping Kurama pinned anyway. Also you are currently closer to proving that Gamabunta is inconsistent rather than the Bijuu if half of your examples include him.

None of these are examples of inconsistency at all. They all have clear displayed explanations.

I'm glad you are conceding that Hidan only dodged the initial ball and not the resulting explosion like you were claiming earlier. Like I already mentioned Yugito trapped them both underground and then the entire building and the surrounding mountains explode. So unless you can show me Kakuzu burrowing through the walls or something he was hit by it. The idea that the huge crater after the battle was caused by multiple explosions is demonstrably wrong as you can clearly see the effects of a single large blast which I will outline for you.

As I already pointed out the rasenshuriken ignores conventional durability on a cellular level. Kakuzu doesn't have a resistance to this so it killed him because he doesn't have the sheer bulk to tank the effect.


Context for the next scan.




Gamabunta is blasted away casually by Shukaku.


Gamabunta once again getting completely slapped around by Shukaku.


Lol to anyone that thinks Gamabunta was at all relative in his fight with Shukaku.


The first set of bombs we see Deidara use.


The result of those bombs.



The Bijuu are weaker without a host.


Here you can clearly see the effects of the singular blast. The mountain from before isn't even here now as well.

 

[Golden_Void]

First of all we use the manga here so all of your anime references are null. I don't have time to waste going back and forth with you either.

"To respond to your first point yes Kakuzu should scale to Yugito swiping her paw at him as hard as she can"

Well he doesn't scale.

"The Gamabunta example is bad because the nine tails immediately throws him off and there are other things to contradict Gamabunta being that strong, these same contradictions don't exist for Kakuzu as I demonstrated. "

Anime - irrelevant.

"There is absolutely nothing to suggest he was over powered he clearly stops that hit. The scan you posted is the scan I've been using this whole time and it shows Kakuzu catching Yugito's paw."

Yeah, because clear visible struggle and getting immediately smashed into the dirt shows he stopped it.

" I asked you to prove this and you are currently responding with "because Kakuzu took hits from Yugito". That's not a valid chain of logic. Your own point can't support itself."

Your opinion doesn't change the fact that its inconsistent. Therefore, it is still an inconsistency.

"Gamabunta is also not doing well against Shukaku at all he literally gets slapped away by air blasts casually and it completely unable to deal with Shukaku at all. h=He needs an amp from Naruto just to stand a chance and even then he's still unable to fight this weaker Shukaku."

"Gamabunta was hardly prevailing over Shukaku nor was he comparable to him on any level. On top of that it's literally stated in those same episodes that Shukaku is not a full strength prior to Gamabunta turning to Kurama and is described as increasing in power afterwards, even after the amp Gamabunta/Kurama is still extremely worried about fighting him."

The fact that you're saying this proves your bias. "he literally gets slapped away by air blasts casually" "Gamabunta was hardly prevailing over Shukaku nor was he comparable to him on any level" Gamabunta was taking full power attacks from Gamabunta, yet Kakuzu automatically scales to tier 6 for getting crushed LMAO.

"The thing that actually ends the fight is Gaara being exposed and Naruto headbutting him into unconsciousness."

Irrelevant to my point. Your entire second point is factually flawed and based on anime events that never happened in the manga.

For starters, Gamabunta implicitly states Shukaku is out of his league, who isn't at full power. Gaara then states he's going into full power, corroborated by Gamabunta who says Shukaku's true strength is suppressed while the host is awake, then Gaara immediately casts a jutsu to put him to sleep, proving Shukaku was at full power, proved as well by Shukaku himself.

"Gamabunta being able to pin the Nine tails is firstly the same as the difference between lifting strength and AP secondly as I already mentioned Gamabunta is unsuccessful in keeping Kurama pinned anyway."

Being able to keep someone pinned down means you're exerting a heavier force upon them than they can counter-act. And secondly, that too is anime only, since in the manga Minato immediately teleports himself and Kurama from underneath Gamabunta.

" Firstly Deidara is fighting a 3 tails without a host which massively weakens it. "

"Deidara even admits after fighting the 3 tails that the reason it was so easy to defeat is because it was weaker without a host and was wild and uncontrolled."

Already implied this when I said the 3 tails was jinchuuriki-less.

"Secondly your description of the way the fight goes down is outright incorrect. Deidara first uses a massive handful of his spider bombs to blow up the entire lake and then he uses a huge fish bomb and has it blow up directly next to the 3 tails head. The scene cuts away and when we come back the 3 tails comes to the surface with Tobi ontop of it who then claims he one shot the 3 tailks with his jutsu. Deidara disagrees and then the tailed beast suddenly splashes up again scaring Tobi as the scene cuts away. When it cuts back the 3 tails is defeated. So no Deidara did not defeat the 3 tails with "some basic clay bombs"."

More anime examples. Null. I've already proven Deidara defeated the beast with a single clay fish. Feel free to read 317.

"Additionally his issues with Sasuke did not involve Sasukes durability and you know it. You make it sound like Sasuke would tank the attacks that Deidara used against the 3 tails but he would not. He was an issue because he kept disarming Deidaras bombs or just outright avoiding them altogether. Deidara even admits after fighting the 3 tails that the reason it was so easy to defeat is because it was weaker without a host and was wild and uncontrolled."

>Brb Deidara blatantly gloating about Sasuke's injuries

>Brb Deidara destroying Sasuke's entire Curse Mark wing with many visible body injuries

Moving on

"I'm glad you are conceding that Hidan only dodged the initial ball and not the resulting explosion like you were claiming earlier."

I said he dodged the blast, which is what he did. I literally never changed by argument. Also blast =/= blast effects, Sasuke was inches away from Deidara's clay explosions on many occasions, there's no proof Hidan was hit by anything since we never saw it.

"Like I already mentioned Yugito trapped them both underground and then the entire building and the surrounding mountains explode. So unless you can show me Kakuzu burrowing through the walls or something he was hit by it."

Argument from ignorance and negative proof fallacy.

"The idea that the huge crater after the battle was caused by multiple explosions is demonstrably wrong as you can clearly see the effects of a single large blast which I will outline for you."

It's certainly possible, but you have no proof of it, therefore we can't assume it was a single blast, when all we've seen a single blast do is blow up one building.

 

[Golden_Void]

And with that being said, the changes have been reverted, so that leaves one thing.