Jon snow vs guts

[foxhunter]

9B tier for both

speed equal

Vs

Guts

Guts also known as "The Black Swordsman", "The One Hundred-Man Slayer" and "The Struggler" was the former raid unit leader of a mercenary group known as the Band of the Hawk and is the main protagonist of Berserk. As a newborn, Guts was taken into a mercenary bandit group after being noticed by...

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Jon Snow (Game of Thrones)

Jon Snow, born Aegon Targaryen, is the son of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen, the late Prince of Dragonstone. From infancy, Jon is presented as the bastard son of Lord Eddard Stark, Lyanna's brother, and raised alongside Eddard's lawful children at Winterfell. Jon's true parentage is kept...

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Guts 1.(noninho,

Jon snow1.(Keeweed,

 

[noninho]

Jon's getting speed blitzed and severely overwhelmed by guts' abilities
Also, I think there's an AP gap, not sure, i'll search later

Anyway, voting guts

 

[foxhunter]

Jon's getting speed blitzed and severely overwhelmed by guts' abilities
Also, I think there's an AP gap, not sure, i'll search later

Anyway, voting guts

I forgot to equal speed, but what abilities does guts have to overwhelm jon?

 

[noninho]

Powers and Abilities:

Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Master Swordsman (Guts has carved his own effective sword style that mainly utilizes greatswords), Expert Hand-to-Hand Combatant, Enhanced Senses (Defended himself and several others from a professional assassin sniping them in near-total darkness, fights unimpeded despite lacking an eye post-Eclipse, could keep up with Rosine while being deafened by her sonic booms), Acrobatics (As seen here and here), Supernatural Willpower (As "the Struggler", Guts' persistence and willpower is unimaginably powerful, which allows him to act through pure rage and hatred alone not caring about any wounds, which is essentially his refusal of death), Analytical Prediction (Correctly predicted in his first fight with Nosferatu Zodd that focusing his attacks on Zodd's sword to break it was his strongest bet at survival. As the Black Swordsman, would go on to fight several duels with Serpico, one of the best fencers in the setting, and see through his tactics and predict his moves each time, even when he had territorial advantage), Stealth Mastery (Sneaked to Julius' house without beings noticed by guards), Immense Pain Tolerance, Minor Multiple Selves (Type 1; his inner darkness manifests as a large, black wolf), Limited Air Manipulation (By swinging his sword broad-side first, he can alter the air pressure in its trajectory to create gusts powerful enough to knock away Silat's whip swords), Passive Probability Manipulation (Due to the circumstances of his birth, he has the supernatural ability to evade certain death), Possibly Regeneration (Low. Likely not combat-applicable. After his and Griffith's first fight with Nosferatu Zodd, Guts healed from his injuries significantly faster than Griffith, despite being the more wounded of the two), Resistance to Empathic Manipulation (Is not under the influence of Femto's supernatural aura that can induce fear and obedience, and could attack him even while on the brink of death), Limited Resistance to Causality Manipulation and Fate Manipulation (Skull Knight states that due to Guts inhabiting the Interstice he exists "outside the logic of the physical world". This compounded with his pre-existing Probability Manipulation allows him to defy the flow of causality established by the God Hand and the Idea of Evil to a small extent, being able to survive even in situations where he is preordained to die, such as when he was sacrificed by Femto)

Yes, Jon Snow has some of those, even if you take them off, can't you see a huge gap?
Imma also search both APs, im sure there's a gap

 

[Keeweed]

Guts gets stomped horribly here. Nothing he has is calculated so he’s baseline wall level and baseline subsonic. Jon snow one shots currently (and ironically is faster reaction wise since he has a calc and guts doesn’t).

I find it likely that if Guts feats were calculated he would win, but since they aren’t he can’t harm snow, and snow one taps him with any attack.

 

[foxhunter]

Powers and Abilities:

Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Master Swordsman (Guts has carved his own effective sword style that mainly utilizes greatswords), Expert Hand-to-Hand Combatant, Enhanced Senses (Defended himself and several others from a professional assassin sniping them in near-total darkness, fights unimpeded despite lacking an eye post-Eclipse, could keep up with Rosine while being deafened by her sonic booms), Acrobatics (As seen here and here), Supernatural Willpower (As "the Struggler", Guts' persistence and willpower is unimaginably powerful, which allows him to act through pure rage and hatred alone not caring about any wounds, which is essentially his refusal of death), Analytical Prediction (Correctly predicted in his first fight with Nosferatu Zodd that focusing his attacks on Zodd's sword to break it was his strongest bet at survival. As the Black Swordsman, would go on to fight several duels with Serpico, one of the best fencers in the setting, and see through his tactics and predict his moves each time, even when he had territorial advantage), Stealth Mastery (Sneaked to Julius' house without beings noticed by guards), Immense Pain Tolerance, Minor Multiple Selves (Type 1; his inner darkness manifests as a large, black wolf), Limited Air Manipulation (By swinging his sword broad-side first, he can alter the air pressure in its trajectory to create gusts powerful enough to knock away Silat's whip swords), Passive Probability Manipulation (Due to the circumstances of his birth, he has the supernatural ability to evade certain death), Possibly Regeneration (Low. Likely not combat-applicable. After his and Griffith's first fight with Nosferatu Zodd, Guts healed from his injuries significantly faster than Griffith, despite being the more wounded of the two), Resistance to Empathic Manipulation (Is not under the influence of Femto's supernatural aura that can induce fear and obedience, and could attack him even while on the brink of death), Limited Resistance to Causality Manipulation and Fate Manipulation (Skull Knight states that due to Guts inhabiting the Interstice he exists "outside the logic of the physical world". This compounded with his pre-existing Probability Manipulation allows him to defy the flow of causality established by the God Hand and the Idea of Evil to a small extent, being able to survive even in situations where he is preordained to die, such as when he was sacrificed by Femto)

Yes, Jon Snow has some of those, even if you take them off, can't you see a huge gap?
Imma also search both APs, im sure there's a gap

I see the problem, guts page is just a bit messy, a lot of these of abilities aren’t for his 9b self, he gets 9A off of fighting wyad (which is out of tier) alot of these abilities are after the eclipse

 

[Keeweed]

I looked up the ap gap. Assuming Guts scales to a 9-B bear (though most are 9-C+) he would scale to around 80,000 joules, Jon scales to around 12,000,000 joules. He absolutely one shots. Guts can’t even rely on piercing power here because Jon wears armor.

 

[foxhunter]

Honestly he should get 9A for damaging zodd who is stronger than wyad in their monster form I don’t see why he wouldn’t be stronger than him in their humane form

 

[Keeweed]

I’m pretty sure Guts already has a 9-A key for that though

 

[foxhunter]

I’m pretty sure Guts already has a 9-A key for that though

Nope his 9A is because of wyad which is near the end of the golden age arc

 

[Keeweed]

Sorry I was driving when I read your post. Zodd is 8-A and stomped Wyad. I don’t think Guts should get a tier for stabbing him, since the entire feat is an outlier.

 

[foxhunter]

Sorry I was driving when I read your post. Zodd is 8-A and stomped Wyad. I don’t think Guts should get a tier for stabbing him, since the entire feat is an outlier.

Or he was just holding back significantly, I agree so 9B guts would essentially cut off around the time he defeat Griffith you think?

 

[foxhunter]

1 vote for guts

And 1 vote for Jon

 

[Keeweed]

Or he was just holding back significantly, I agree so 9B guts would essentially cut off around the time he defeat Griffith you think?

I mean it doesn’t really matter when it cuts off too much. It just matters if Guts has a 9-B key, which he likely will keep for the foreseeable future.

I’m not voting for Jon though, I think he just straight stomps. He’s over 12 times stronger. If Guts tries to clash swords with him or block he gets his arms broken and is cleave apart. Plus he doesn’t literally zero damage if he hits anywhere but the head because Jon’s armor would stop Guts sword (since the sword is 12 times weaker), and the damage he would do to the is arguably nonexistent because he’s 12 times weaker (or more accurately less powerful). Guts can’t hurt snow here and dies in practically one hit (or two if Guts is hit somewhere non vital and toughs it out).

Though Guts not just being obliterated from the first hit is being very generous, especially since he goes for risky trades and blocks all the time, both of which get him immediately killed.

 

[foxhunter]

I mean it doesn’t really matter when it cuts off too much. It just matters if Guts has a 9-B key, which he likely will keep for the foreseeable future.

I’m not voting for Jon though, I think he just straight stomps. He’s over 12 times stronger. If Guts tries to clash swords with him or block he gets his arms broken and is cleave apart. Plus he doesn’t literally zero damage if he hits anywhere but the head because Jon’s armor would stop Guts sword (since the sword is 12 times weaker), and the damage he would do to the is arguably nonexistent because he’s 12 times weaker (or more accurately less powerful). Guts can’t hurt snow here and dies in practically one hit (or two if Guts is hit somewhere non vital and toughs it out).

Though Guts not just being obliterated from the first hit is being very generous, especially since he goes for risky trades and blocks all the time, both of which get him immediately killed.

What type of armor does jon snow wear? We see Guts cut through steel armor pretty easily, though the ap is problem because of the lack of calcs for berserk early arc stuff, I’m not sure how Jon skill would fair up against guts, and guts having analysts predictions also gives him an edge I can see him risking it all in 1 blow like we typically see him do. And aim toward Jon's snow head since he doesn’t wear a helmet, don’t think Jon would survive that but I lean towards Jon's favor because of the better class At least right now.

 

[Keeweed]

Guts cuts through steel armor that is hilarious beneath his ap. Jon’s armor should scale to other armors in the verse that work against the other 9-B+ characters (except for in season 8, but they worked just fine in many other seasons, so an argument can be made).

Jon should absolutely survive a single blow to the head. His head is 12 times more durable than guts’ weapon ap. It could give him a mean cut, maybe, but Guts would be at constant threat of instant death every time he gets close to Jon and if he ever goes for a block he loses his weapon at best and is dead at worst.

Maybe piercing damage makes it not a stomp, but I’ll wait and see if other people think Guts has enough skill to super slowly win or not.

 

[RoTt35]

Guts upscales from baseline (15,000 Joules), while Jon upscales from 12,827,856.9776 Joules, that's an AP difference of 855.1905×. Jon just exchanging a single blow would pierce through Guts' sword and armor, cutting him in half like butter in the process.

About Jon's skill you can check this blog, but to summarize he is stated to be the greatest swordsman who ever walked by the Northmen, which at bare minimum would put him above his father Ned in skill, who in just two moves killed Gerold Hightower, a Kinsguard considered a legend and one of the greatest knights in all of Westeros at the time

 

[foxhunter]

Yeah, it's kinda a stomp with the ap advantage, wonder if there any guts calc to put him higher, but I leaning towards jon as of now

 

[Keeweed]

I mean, I’m kinda torn on whether Guts is straight baseline or not. He doesn’t have a calc, but his profile specifically states he scales to bears and 9-B bears aren’t baseline (though he may scale to a 9-C+ bear and that’s just support). If other people agree he’s baseline then I go back to my original opinion. This is absolutely a stomp.

 

[RoTt35]

I mean, I’m kinda torn on whether Guts is straight baseline or not. He doesn’t have a calc, but his profile specifically states he scales to bears and 9-B bears aren’t baseline (though he may scale to a 9-C+ bear and that’s just support).

If I'm not wrong it's because Guts's profile hasn't been updated since bears, along with many real world animals, were downgraded to 9-C+

 

[Keeweed]

I mean, not all bears were downgraded and Guts lives in an area that would have 9-B bears. Though, staying safer, Guts is likely baseline so RIP.

 

[RoTt35]

I mean, not all bears were downgraded and Guts lives in an area that would have 9-B bears. Though, staying safer, Guts is likely baseline so RIP.

Even if Guts were above baseline the maximum AP difference to not be stomped in a vs thread is of 7.5x, so Guts would need to have an AP of at least 1,710,380.9303467 Joules to not be one-shot by Jon. And even taking that into account Jon's sword is made of Valyrian Steel, which is stated to slice through steel armor (which in GoT upscales from 12,827,856.9776 Joules) like so much cloth. So yeah, this match is a stomp

 

[noninho]

I looked up the ap gap. Assuming Guts scales to a 9-B bear (though most are 9-C+) he would scale to around 80,000 joules, Jon scales to around 12,000,000 joules. He absolutely one shots. Guts can’t even rely on piercing power here because Jon wears armor.

He's not baseline.
182,400,000 joules makes him 15.2x stronger than Jon. And via ability gap, this is 100% a stomp, but for guts' side

 

[RoTt35]

He's not baseline.
182,400,000 joules makes him 15.2x stronger than Jon. And via ability gap, this is 100% a stomp, but for guts' side

That's for his 9-A key (End of the Golden Age), but his 9-B key (Beginning of the Golden Age) is being used here who is just baseline as he doesn't scale to any calc