Joker vs Copen

[The_Smashor]

Gunvolt got stomped due to not being able to effect Joker thanks to Persona resistances. Copen lacks this issue thanks to variety.

Rules: Speed Equalized. This is Early Game Ren vs Copen with Mytyl's Anthem. Otherwise SBA.



Overpowered JRPG protagonist #421:

A generic anime rival, Batman and your Racist Uncle fused together:

Thunder Mc682 says "Okay":

 

[Ionliosite]

So what does Copen lead with? Batman fused with a generic anime rival? That sounds oddly cool

 

[Ted_Ed]

Copen wins if he can negate persona abilities.

 

[The_Smashor]

Powernull probably would do that (Since I beleive personas are mind/soul based), but Power Grab's bullets are extremely slow.

 

[Ionliosite]

So Joker can dodge them.

 

[The_Smashor]

Yes.

 

[Ted_Ed]

Copen shoots them in a way that they stay in the stage for longer and danmakus his foes into hitting em

 

[The_Smashor]

I wouldn't say Danmaku, but what you said is basically correct.

 

[Smashtwig]

I wouldn't say the Greed Snatcher/Power Grab is slow... But they should be dodge able regardless. However it should be noted that even a graze from those damn purple balls and Joker's abilities will be negated.

As well, the shots are expensive to manufacture, so Copen doesn't really want to use it all too much, even though his spams it in his anthem boss fight

 

[Smashtwig]

Though, my question is how is Joker gonna deal with Prevasion?

Infinite Prevasion actually, since Anthem is in effect. (At least in his boss fight, it is indeed infinite)

 

[Solacis]

Mamudo/Mahama would settle this instantly. Everything around Joker gets death-haxed, Prevasion be damned since all of his attacks affect incorporeals anyway.

 

[The_Smashor]

How IC is it for Joker to use that?

 

[Solacis]

As IC as any other move he has. If you mean "how likely is he to open with it", it's fairly likely. It's one of his most basic and available hax.

 

[The_Smashor]

This is a video game move. It clearly has some kind of massive drawback. Low accuracy? Low chance of working? I swear to god if you just tell me everyone in the game resists it...

 

[Solacis]

Everyone in the game resists it. I'm not even kidding.

It's represented as a chance-based affliction, but items/skills meant to boost the the likelihood of the effect have their descriptions stating that they're only increasing the potency of the death hax.

 

[The_Smashor]

Can you please explain with more detail as to how they resist?

 

[Solacis]

That's really all there is to it. They resist, so the death hax has a chance of flat-out not working, but a more potent death hax would power through more of the resistance, so the chance of it failing is lower.

Naoto in P4A can lower people's resistance manually via certain skills, and once the representative meter reaches zero, any death hax would instantly kill. Seeing as this is a fighting game, it's understandably kinda cray-cray. Shadow Naoto can kill in less than 5 seconds like wtf.

 

[The_Smashor]

Have you considered that the attack just has a chance to not work on anyone and that it's not resistance, but is instead an inherit limitation of the attack? That's like saying Unscrew from FNAF World is always going to kill instantly but everyone in the game resists it so it doesn't always work. You can't just assume that. There needs to be some kind of definitive proof.

 

[Solacis]

Yeah, I've already mentioned the item/skill descriptions, and while I can't locate the specific one, there's also the fact that the chance-based limitation has never been shown outside of RPG gameplay. The only times it has appeared outside of it has been in P4A(U), with Naoto's above example, and Ken's instant kill special which is guaranteed death regardless of resistance.

 

[The_Smashor]

All the Persona games take place in the same universe at different times, right?

 

[Solacis]

Yes

 

[The_Smashor]

Still, I feel like it can't just be written off as game mechanics.

The fighting game one only works if the enemy was going to be incaped anyway, so I doubt it's that useful. Ken's sounds impressive, but Joker is not Ken.

 

[Solacis]

Honestly, considering the current arguments, it's very likely Game Mechanics. Even taking away the supporting statements, any chance-based hax that isn't based on some kind of in-universe law is considered game mechanics in most cases.

Add the fact that item descriptions, fighting game depictions of death hax, and even fighting game depictions of other chance-based hax (such as Counter, which is usable at any time by Chie), all disprove it... Well...

 

[The_Smashor]

Still, Copen would probably land Powernull first (He spams it in this key, or more specifically when he's under the effects of Mytyl's Anthem)

 

[Solacis]

Who's to say Joker won't just dodge? Sure it's pretty spammable, but can't he just blow away the bullets with his own attacks? Or even reflect them back with Makarakarn? Almighty ignores nullification, and Joker's own bullets have the same properties.

 

[The_Smashor]

"Joker's own bullets have the same properties"

Explanation, please.

 

[Solacis]

Joker's bullets ignore elemental affinities just like his Almighty attacks do; a trait he got from his Tower Confidant. This translates to bypassing Resistance, Power Null, Attack Reflection and Absorption. Even if Copen's bullets carry power-nulling properties, Joker's bullets and Almighty attacks ignore that and just knock away or outright destroy them.

 

[The_Smashor]

Joker only has a limited number of bullets, and they don't bypass Prevasion. I assume Joker can't just spam Almighty attacks because... you know. Strongest attacks in the game.

 

[Solacis]

He only needs to blast them away every once in a while when he can't dodge them. Prevasion is intangibility, and Joker's attacks all affect incorporeal beings easily. This is especially bad for Copen since if he can't hit the physical body, Copen just gets annihilated, since a physical body is the only thing stopping Joker's attacks from then blasting his mind and soul. Seeing as the guy has no resistance to either mindhax or soulhax, this just makes the fight easier for Joker.

 

[The_Smashor]

Wow. Persona is kind of dumb.

 

[Solacis]

It is and I love it.

 

[Shozo_Irie]

And you're not the only one.

 

[Smashtwig]

I see...

me, wondering if Copen has mind Resist from Zonda.

Answer. Heck no.

 

[The_Smashor]

Yeah, Zonda never uses Paradise Lost in that fight, and the fight is very PIS and Outlier-y anyways.