Instant death revision

[Delta333]

Propose to remove some of these abilities from Yogiri's profile unless supporters can present new evidence to replace them:

Avatar
1st Gate:
Resistance Negation: Those he kills are 3-D beings so it's natural for him to overwhelm their resistances with 1-B hax potency as opposed to negating resistances.

Causality Manipulation: Lacking causality is acausality and not causality manipulation, considering this same justification is literally used to explain his acausality type 4 (in The End key) I think the removal is self-explanatory.

Non-Physical Interaction: Have read the profile and can't find anything about him killing information of the world, and I don't remember him doing something like that as well. I guess killing nonexistence comes from him killing UEG, but her nonexistent state only appears when her physical body gets destroyed, and considering Yogiri kills her when she is still physical rather than nothingness, which is why her final moment was losing her form and falling from the sky, I believe it's better to be removed. Also even UEG's NEP state is questionable because the profile says that she lacks mind, soul, concept; does anyone have scan for this? If not then her NEP should be removed then.

Space-Time Destruction: Should be just Space Destruction by killing a pocket dimension. His feat of killing HRE would no longer count as killing spacetime as I have proved in this thread that the entire existence of HRE is not fully spacetime itself.

Immortality type 7: This is out of context because what Aoi describes as neither human nor living thing in this context is The End, not the avatar at all. And The End is an abstraction so it's described as such, not because it's already dead.

Enhanced Senses & Precognition: Should be Enhanced Senses only because when people sense the killing intent toward them, being able to know that potential danger may happen is just an obvious thing unless they have no intelligence. Yeah this doesn't need any other ability to predict the future at all.

Existence Erasure: According to the profile it's likely because he killed Another Kingdom, but if you read the scan carefully it says that the cracks run through the space like a broken glass, then the world outside exploded. So nothing here gets erased at all, it's pure physical destruction. Also Space Destruction above already covers this anyways.

Immortality Negation (All Types): Killing characters with type 1 and type 2 doesn't count as immortality type 1 and type 2 negation, it's something that even normal person without any supernatural ability could do.

Regeneration Negation (Mid-Godly): Is there any scan that shows UEG can return after having not only the physical body, but also her mind and soul getting erased? If there isn't then it should be Low-Godly instead.

Summoning: Is there any scan that shows Yogiri actively summons the true form through his power rather than the true form appears to kill the enemy by its own will? Combine with the fact that in this scene everything was frozen, meaning the avatar was incapacitated and can't do any action, yet the true form still comes to kill Darian, I'm not sure why we can assume that Yogiri uses his own power to summon the true form whenever he wants.

3rd Gate:
Greater Power Nullification & Causality Manipulation: Should just be Causality Manipulation only as his causality manipulation in 1st Gate is removed, so this one doesn't scale above anything, so it's no longer "greater". The reason Power Nullification is removed is because Mitsuki having no influence on the dream anymore is just the natural consequence of Yogiri using causality manipulation on him (he killed the relationship between Mitsuki and the world), as such it's solely causality manipulation without any other ability involved. For example, if I destroy someone soul, I don't think I will get death manipulation as a bonus, since the target being dead is just a natural consequence of another hax called soul manipulation.

Resistance:
Resistance to Power Nullification: The person and the technology who said that power nullification doesn't work on him are 3-D beings, so obviously they can't negate a 1-B attack, Yogiri doesn't need to resist anything.

Resistance to Probability Manipulation: Has this character ever shown to use her probability manipulation to influence the 1-B attack and render it missing her? If not then obviously Yogiri killed her because of higher potency hax.

Resistance to Causality Manipulation: HRE can't overturn the attack because The End and its attack are acausality type 4, as shown above. Yogiri doesn't need to have resistance to causality manipulation to kill HRE.

The End
Attack Reflection, Time Stop, Time Manipulation, Spatial Manipulation: The reason apparently is because The End can replicate common powers in the Sea but I don't remember since when The End has ever shown power mimicry and it's also not listed anywhere as an ability on his profile. But assuming he can do something like that, saying that he has replicated these abilities just because lots of characters can access them without proper explanation is not persuasive for me.

Agree: 5 (SweetDao, Dark_Soul20189, Laviossiii, Grabbing_dragon, Astral_Trinity439)
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[KingNanaya]

good lord

 

[SweetDao]

You could have waited before posting this, we already prepared everything in private

 

[Delta333]

Nah I will free ID supporters from suffering by ending everything in just one thread.

 

[ROZAN-TIMSINA0]

another bombshell just dropped
edit: not even surprising at this point tho

 

[SweetDao]

Non-Physical Interaction: Have read the profile and can't find anything about him killing information of the world, and I don't remember him doing something like that as well. I guess killing nonexistence comes from him killing UEG, but her nonexistent state only appears when her physical body gets destroyed, and considering Yogiri kills her when she is still physical rather than nothingness, which is why her final moment was losing her form and falling from the sky, I believe it's better to be removed. Also even UEG's NEP state is questionable because the profile says that she lacks mind, soul, concept; does anyone have scan for this? If not then her NEP should be removed then.

Gods' NEP should go, yeah, that's planned.

Existence Erasure: According to the profile it's likely because he killed Another Kingdom, but if you read the scan carefully it says that the cracks run through the space like a broken glass, then the world outside exploded. So nothing here gets erased at all, it's pure physical destruction. Also Space Destruction above already covers this anyways.

He should keep his Existence Erasure since his power is more akin to EE than Death Manipulation, but that's another topic.

Immortality Negation (All Types): Killing characters with type 1 and type 2 doesn't count as immortality type 1 and type 2 negation, it's something that even normal person without any supernatural ability could do.

Seems logical, but I think the "all types" is to make things easier to understand.

Regeneration Negation (Mid-Godly): Is there any scan that shows UEG can return after having not only the physical body, but also her mind and soul getting erased? If there isn't then it should be Low-Godly instead.

A thread is currently ongoing to change the regeneration of Gods to Low-Godly. So yeah, that would change in time.

Is there any scan that shows Yogiri actively summons the true form through his power rather than the true form appears to kill the enemy by its own will? Combine with the fact that in this scene everything was frozen, meaning the avatar was incapacitated and can't do any action, yet the true form still comes to kill Darian, I'm not sure why we can assume that Yogiri uses his own power to summon the true form whenever he wants.

Fine, yeah, the true form appears only when the avatar is in danger.

Rest is fine, I suppose

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Nah I will free ID supporters from suffering by ending everything in just one thread.

Too bad, you still missed a lot, SO we still have many more possible threads we can make.

 

[Delta333]

He should keep his Existence Erasure since his power is more akin to EE than Death Manipulation, but that's another topic.

I don't mind if you have another scan to replace the current bad one.

 

[SweetDao]

I don't mind if you have another scan to replace the current bad one.

Thing is, the scan would also remove death manipulation for Yogiri, so I prefer doing it on another thread solely reserved to this. So for now, you can remove it, that's fine.

 

[Delta333]

remove death manipulation for Yogiri

brutal

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Overall I agree with the downgrades, Naturally, some can be kept if we just find further evidence for them.

 

[Laviossiii]

Agree

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

Agree with the thread and now cant wait for him to loose that resistance negation,some immortality negation if his power is EE

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Agreed with everything, in addition, I would like to add a few more points.

Immortality type 7: This is out of context because what Aoi describes as neither human nor living thing in this context is The End, not the avatar at all. And The End is an abstraction so it's described as such, not because it's already dead.

This is likely just referring to his true form, The End. Even more so, the justification for his Type 4 literally says the avatar form dies and comes back in a new form after around a 100 years. That's simply not how Type 7 works, which requires one to not die in the first place because they are already dead.

Enhanced Senses & Precognition: Should be Enhanced Senses only because when people sense the killing intent toward them, being able to know that potential danger may happen is just an obvious thing unless they have no intelligence. Yeah this doesn't need any other ability to predict the future at all.

Yeah, none of this is even near Precognition. His ability revolves around auto killing anything that has an intention to harm him. The scans do not show if his ability can work on someone that will have ill intention towards him in the future and has no ill intent towards him in the present, which is what Precognition requires, instead.

Immortality Negation (All Types): Killing characters with type 1 and type 2 doesn't count as immortality type 1 and type 2 negation, it's something that even normal person without any supernatural ability could do.

Regeneration Negation (Mid-Godly): Is there any scan that shows UEG can return after having not only the physical body, but also her mind and soul getting erased? If there isn't then it should be Low-Godly instead.

In fact, Yogiri;s abiIity is to conceptuaIIy kiII someone, aka cause conceptuaI death, no character in the series so far has shown to return from conceptuaI destruction, shown by the fact that even UEG onIy has Iow godIy regeneration. IN FACT, from the very scan they give, its expIicitIy impIying resurrection, not even regeneration. Heck, he didnt even kiII UEG directIy, its IiteraIIy stated just afterwards that he sent her to the void, which, btw, isnt The End or anything, if someone mistakes it as that. That has aIready been expIained in a prior thread when his NEP was debunked.

• BFR (Send UEG to the void, an endless darkness where nothing exists and nothing can exist[24])

AdditionaIIy, he aIso does not have Type 5. UEG is given aII those immortaIities without any apparent expIanation, even.

• Self-Sustenance (Types 1, 2 and 3), Immortality (Types 1, 2, 3, 5, and 9), Higher-Dimensional Existence, Regeneration Negation (Low-Godly[1])

Even more so, Yogiri has Existence Erasure, and his attacks can erase one's concept, thus, as the page says, that is simpIy the Iegitimate way to kiII such beings

5: Deathless Immortality: Characters who exist unbound by conventional life or death, or do not exist at all, and thus cannot be traditionally killed. Typically, abilities such as Existence Erasure are needed to destroy them.

He does not have Type 7 either, as he wouId be kiIIing/destroying the concept of said being, which a normaI Type 7 immortaIity cant protect one from.
I wouId tackIe his other negation types in the future as they are a bit compIicated, but for now

• He doesnt have Type 1 and 2 as you described.
• He doesnt have Type 3 or Type 4 negation as he can kiII/destroy them beyond the point they can regenerate/resurrect from
• He doesnt have Type 5, as he can EE or conceptuaIIy destroy someone
• He doesnt have Type 7 as he is destroying them beyond what their Type 7 can appIy to

Greater Power Nullification & Causality Manipulation: Should just be Causality Manipulation only as his causality manipulation in 1st Gate is removed, so this one doesn't scale above anything, so it's no longer "greater". The reason Power Nullification is removed is because Mitsuki having no influence on the dream anymore is just the natural consequence of Yogiri using causality manipulation on him (he killed the relationship between Mitsuki and the world), as such it's solely causality manipulation without any other ability involved. For example, if I destroy someone soul, I don't think I will get death manipulation as a bonus, since the target being dead is just a natural consequence of another hax called soul manipulation.

This is simply Power Nullification. He simply cut of the Power, or in this case, Relation, that defined the Cause and Effect of the World being destroyed. Here is an analogy :

• Yogiri kills Mitsuki without messing with the Relationship :- The World that was supposed to be destroyed is not destroyed.
• Yogiri kills the Relationship, or both it and Mitsuki :- The World that was supposed to be destroyed is not destroyed.

Here, the first one is valid Causality Manipulation, as the Effect that was supposed to happen did not, even tho the relation between that Cause and Effect was as is, thus, it is preventing the Effect directly even tho the Cause has been achieved. But in that case it is not Power Nullification. In the second, however, it is Valid Power Nullification as the link itself between the Cause and the Effect was destroyed, thus, even if the Cause was achieved, the Effect would not as that Effect would no longer be linked to the Cause of Mitsuki getting killed, tho that did not happen to begin with, Mitsuki just fell asleep for Eternity, he did not die.. And the latter is what happened here, so Causality Manipulation says bye bye.

Resistance to Probability Manipulation: Has this character ever shown to use her probability manipulation to influence the 1-B attack and render it missing her? If not then obviously Yogiri killed her because of higher potency hax.

Nina has Absolute Evasion, that is a sure-point, but nothing suggests that she can dodge Non-Physical Attacks, especially from that of Yogiri who can simply make someone die without any Physical means. Thus, it would be excessive to assume she could dodge a supposed Non-Physical Non-Perceivable attack while Yogiri's still worked.

 

[Delta333]

But in that case it is not Power Nullification

Don't understand what you mean here, so you want to remove both or?
Edit: Nvm I think I get what you mean now, I still think causality manipulation remains but I will put your thought on OP as well.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Don't understand what you mean here, so you want to remove both or?
Edit: Nvm I think I get what you mean now, I still think causality manipulation remains but I will put your thought on OP as well.

That was an anaIogy, or in which case it wouId be power nuII and on which case it wiII be causaIity manip, and the conc to the anaIogy was causaIity manip can go bye bye

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

(Another suggestion by @Astral_Trinity439 is to remove causality manipulation instead and power nullification will remain, here is the explanation. I still think that power nullification should go instead but I don't mind to go either way).

Actually, change this. I changed my mind. Since Yogiri just BFRed Mitsuki to the void and the Iatter is stiII aIive, dreaming, this is neither power nuII or causaIity manip, its just BFRing Mitsuki to a point where he cant come back from or do anything.

Instead, you can add my suggestion about immortaIity instead.
And I agree with Sweetdao on that EE can remain

 

[Delta333]

And I agree with Sweetdao on that EE can remain

Tbf The End key already had it

Instead, you can add my suggestion about immortaIity instead.

Eh I'm not sure tbh because many characters who get killed by him don't have their body getting erased at all, which is what conceptual destruction is supposed to be in the first place. In addition he just lost conceptual manipulation recently.

 

[SweetDao]

Eh I'm not sure tbh because many characters who get killed by him don't have their body getting erased at all, which is what conceptual destruction is supposed to be in the first place. In addition he just lost conceptual manipulation recently.

About this. He's erasing the "existence" of something or someone. But the "physical remains" of said existence can stay, since it's more or less unrelated to the "existence" of the character. I can kill you by "erasing" your mind, yet your body would still fall on the floor since there is nothing maintaining integrity anymore. The same example can work with soul instead of mind, and it's the same with "existence/concept" here.

 

[Delta333]

About this. He's erasing the "existence" of something or someone. But the "physical remains" of said existence can stay, since it's more or less unrelated to the "existence" of the character. I can kill you by "erasing" your mind, yet your body would still fall on the floor since there is nothing maintaining integrity anymore. The same example can work with soul instead of mind, and it's the same with "existence/concept" here.

I'm pretty sure that one would disappear if their existence and concept were destroyed tho, since it's the fundamental aspect that sustains one existence. Mind and soul are different, the regeneration page makes it clear about that.

 

[SweetDao]

I'm pretty sure that one would disappear if their existence and concept were destroyed tho, since it's the fundamental aspect that sustains one existence. Mind and soul are different, the regeneration page makes it clear about that.

That would be the most logical way, yeah, but ID doesn't work like this. I can't really vouch for it more than this. It's weird, but it "works" I suppose.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Eh I'm not sure tbh because many characters who get killed by him don't have their body getting erased at all, which is what conceptual destruction is supposed to be in the first place. In addition he just lost conceptual manipulation recently.

Not reaIIy, you can destroy someone;s concept without destroying their body first.

However, if one;s concept is destroyed, their physicaI form wiII eventuaIIy crumbIe as a by-product
this is actuaIIy the same for Yogiri;s ConceptuaI EE :

• Durability Negation (Object that Yogiri kill turn brittle and fragile[17])

Its just disguised as something else.
Destruction of Concept and EE are not exactIy the same thing, just reIated

Even more so, there are cases in fiction where a more fundamentaI aspect of existence is destroyed yet their physicaI body remains

 

[Delta333]

Not reaIIy, you can destroy someone;s concept without destroying their body first.

However, if one;s concept is destroyed, their physicaI form wiII eventuaIIy crumbIe as a by-product
this is actuaIIy the same for Yogiri;s ConceptuaI EE

I mean how it's called "existence erasure" when no existence gets erased in the first place? It's contradicted by text-book definition, also no scan points out that Yogiri kills the concept of target.

 

[SweetDao]

I mean how it's called "existence erasure" when no existence gets erased in the first place? It's contradicted by text-book definition, also no scan points out that Yogiri kills the concept of target.

UEG can "seemingly" kill the concept of being of someone :



Yogiri removed/erased the sense of self of UEG :



The body of UEG falls in front of them just after :

 

[Delta333]

UEG can "seemingly" kill the concept of being of someone :



Yogiri removed/erased the sense of self of UEG :



The body of UEG falls in front of them just after :

Yea I know that UEG gets erased without losing the physical body, which is what I described in the OP, however the process was never fully explained in the series as for what Yogiri actually killed in that scene.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Yea I know that UEG gets erased without losing the physical body, which is what I described in the OP, however the process was never fully explained in the series as for what Yogiri actually killed in that scene.

It did mention concept of being just before, additionaIIy, sense of seIf might be simiIar to concept of being/seIf, which wouId be this :

3. Lesser Fundamental Concepts: Concepts that don't meet the same standards as Type 1 or Type 2, such as personal concepts that continue to govern the object in question, merely on a more specific scale, or concepts whose nature is not elaborated upon. Case-by-case specifications and explanations are necessary for such concepts and examples, and they are likely not going to meet the same standards for abilities such as High-Godly regeneration that other concepts may. Conceptual manipulation of this type can be resisted by those who resist sufficiently similar abilities, even if the exact mechanics may differ.

StiII a concept, tho, just a personaI concept that isnt expIained further

 

[SweetDao]

Yea I know that UEG gets erased without losing the physical body, which is what I described in the OP, however the process was never fully explained in the series as for what Yogiri actually killed in that scene.

"Sense of self" seems pretty clear to me.

Especially since the UEG we're following through the event is either her consciousness or soul. We know that Yogiri's power is not instant death but Homeostasis, aka, removing any threat to him. I feel like saying he erases a concept is way more plausible than anything less (or anything more). He's a rule of the UEW, his job is to keep the UEW from getting destroyed/to keep it stable.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

"Sense of self" seems pretty clear to me.

Especially since the UEG we're following through the event is either her consciousness or soul. We know that Yogiri's power is not instant death but Homeostasis, aka, removing any threat to him. I feel like saying he erases a concept is way more plausible than anything less (or anything more). He's a rule of the UEW, his job is to keep the UEW from getting destroyed/to keep it stable.

also saying UEG has better ee than yogiri makes no sense in any possible world

 

[SweetDao]

also saying UEG has better ee than yogiri makes no sense in any possible world

This too. I supposed we could make thousand of arguments on why it might or might not be the case.

One could say that Yogiri is merely stronger.
One could say that compared to UEG, he has a passive law that obstruct any revival attempt.
One could say Yogiri's power is fundamentally different from what we're shown.
And I could go on and on.

Easiest explanation would just be that "Yogiri is a rule of the world that can choose what is removed and useless for the well-being of his avatar/world"

 

[Delta333]

It did mention concept of being just before, additionaIIy, sense of seIf might be simiIar to concept of being/seIf, which wouId be this :

StiII a concept, tho, just a personaI concept that isnt expIained further

"Sense of self" seems pretty clear to me.

Especially since the UEG we're following through the event is either her consciousness or soul. We know that Yogiri's power is not instant death but Homeostasis, aka, removing any threat to him. I feel like saying he erases a concept is way more plausible than anything less (or anything more). He's a rule of the UEW, his job is to keep the UEW from getting destroyed/to keep it stable.

What makes "sense of self" a concept, anyway? Also had this "sense of self" ever shown any characteristics of a concept rather than just making UEG die without disappearing from reality?

also saying UEG has better ee than yogiri makes no sense in any possible world

I mean even random people in the Sea already had concept hax if you want to upscale.

 

[Homie890]

hell nah man,vsbw is at war instant death.
shi is more brutal than 7-2 from ultrakill bruv.

 

[SweetDao]

What makes "sense of self" a concept, anyway? Also had this "sense of self" ever shown any characteristics of a concept rather than just making UEG die without disappearing from reality?

I mean, "what you are" is necessarily beyond physical embodiment (the body of a God is a vessel) and the mind/soul (both are the same inside the verse). We know that killing the concept of being of a character is something she can do (and another character, too), I don't see why, somehow, what Yogiri did would be lesser than at least removing the concept of said character.

 

[Delta333]

I mean, "what you are" is necessarily beyond physical embodiment (the body of a God is a vessel) and the mind/soul (both are the same inside the verse). We know that killing the concept of being of a character is something she can do (and another character, too), I don't see why, somehow, what Yogiri did would be lesser than at least removing the concept of said character.

Because UEG ability and Yogiri ability have no relationship so how can we scale like that? Being a stronger ability doesn't make it inherit the properties of a weaker ability tho, also iirc UEG erasure never shown to leave the target being dead while the body remains like Yogiri.

 

[SweetDao]

Because UEG ability and Yogiri ability have no relationship so how can we scale like that? Being a stronger ability doesn't make it inherit the properties of a weaker ability tho, also iirc UEG erasure never shown to leave the target being dead like Yogiri.

Yeah, they have no relation since what Yogiri does isn't "killing", it's removing stuff from the UEW. You can't kill "gravity", but you can remove "gravity". You can't kill "the momentum of a falling rock" but you can "remove' it.

UEG erasure isn't erasure, it's annihilation, that's another problem with the verse, but that's more on the translation's fault.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

What makes "sense of self" a concept, anyway? Also had this "sense of self" ever shown any characteristics of a concept rather than just making UEG die without disappearing from reality?

I am not a noveI reader myseIf, so unsure about that, but from the 3 scans sweetdao sent above, I coreIated it with their concept of being.

 

[Delta333]

I am not a noveI reader myseIf, so unsure about that, but from the 3 scans sweetdao sent above, I coreIated it with their concept of being.

Tbh this "sense of self" has never been mentioned again so

Yeah, they have no relation since what Yogiri does isn't "killing", it's removing stuff from the UEW. You can't kill "gravity", but you can remove "gravity". You can't kill "the momentum of a falling rock" but you can "remove' it.

UEG erasure isn't erasure, it's annihilation, that's another problem with the verse, but that's more on the translation's fault.

If we group all of his killing feats as a single ability called the "killing/removing existence" or whatever then doesn't practically all abilities on his profile get removed?

 

[SweetDao]

If we group all of his killing feats as a single ability called the "killing/removing existence" or whatever then doesn't practically all abilities on his profile get removed?

I mean, he's a one-trick pony. When you think about it, it was the same with death manipulation.

Tbh this "sense of self" has never been mentioned again so

It does, tho. When Hanakawa almost died :



Sense of self is the sum of everything that makes your existence. Yogiri directly kills it rather than killing the body, mind and whatever the rest of your existence is made of.

 

[Delta333]

I mean, he's a one-trick pony. When you think about it, it was the same with death manipulation.

It does, tho. When Hanakawa almost died :



Sense of self is the sum of everything that makes your existence. Yogiri directly kills it rather than killing the body, mind and whatever the rest of your existence is made of.

Sounds like perception manipulation for me tbh, when killing the sense of self of someone they can’t feel or see anything, can’t also tell if it’s dream or reality.

 

[SweetDao]

Sounds like perception manipulation for me tbh, when killing the sense of self of someone they can’t feel or see anything, can’t also tell if it’s dream or reality.

Nah, in that instance, it wasn't Yogiri who did this.

Although that does further reinforce that the void UEG's was in wasn't Yogiri's doing/true form but whatever.

 

[Delta333]

Nah, in that instance, it wasn't Yogiri who did this.

Although that does further reinforce that the void UEG's was in wasn't Yogiri's doing/true form but whatever.

Don't know that, although it's also weird when he has no "sense of self", yet he's still just "almost died".