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Infinite & Immeasurable Speed Clarification

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Metal875

Metal875

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Is it possible I can get more clarification between the two of these? A lot of characters have been rated infinite for destroying spacetime and moving, while others are immeasurable. What makes it different?

If I was to move in a white void of absolute nonexistence, would I be infinite or immeasurable?
 
Oh, okay. That makes more sense... but then why are characters rated infinite for moving in destroyed space-time?

Also, thank you.
 
Sorry for the late response.

Hue is pretty much correct—I know there are, like, three other examples, but Dimentio is the main character I had in mind.
 
"Moving within a timeless void is not a sufficient justification for receiving the infinite speed rating. This is a rather common plot convenience within fiction, such as after a universe has been destroyed, or when travelling outside of regular space-time, and is generally strongly contradicted by all regular speed feats. In order to qualify, a character must be a natural part of that type of environment."

^ The wiki's new policies regarding infinite speed and moving in a timeless void.
 
Okay... So they have to accomplish it multiple times, I take it? That's probably why Darkspine Sonic received the speed downgrade.

And because Dimentio still has it, I take it he and Paper Mario still qualify?

That brings me to another question though... If a character moving in a timeless void makes someone infinite, then what's the use for immeasurable speed?
 
Either accomplish it multiple times, or clearly establish that they are completely unbound by time by nature of their being.

Immeasurable is complete transcendence all together towards time I believe. Not just the ability to move outside of regular flow of time or being unbound by it.

Honestly I am rather neutral to what we qualify as infinite and immeasurable speed for the most part.
 
Well since this is on topic, does this apply for GER, he acted in erased time and should powerscale off things like Tusk Act 4 that can power through time stop.

Not sure though since GER has like a single canon feat.

Im personally up for an irrelevant rating and not infinite since the latter seems kinda baseless.
 
Okay... So infinite is the ability to bypass time, and immeasurable bypasses both time and space? Thank you Ryu, it makes a lot more sense. But I have a proposal then—can't Dimentio be at immeasurable? The Chaos Heart could function after The Void consumed all existence like time AND space, and it allowed Count Bleck to manipulate time.

If this is not the place to ask that, I apologize, but this has been getting to me and confusing me for a long time now.
 
GER does not fall in the trope of being able to move after universe is destroyed. Otherwise all universe+ characters would be infinite in speed, which they're not
 
The topic has been brought up multiple times and turned down. I just think Dimentio will at best be considered infinite here.

And I am not entirely sure of specifics. But from what I recall it isn't a difference of bypassing time vs bypassing time and space.

Rather moving in erased time/being unbound by time vs being completely transcendent of time.
 
But... Hmm... I might not be grasping something here.

Isn't bypassing time still transcending it?

And what would qualify as transcending it? I recall the Time Eater being immeasurable due to being able to function and manipulate time even after the destruction of the space-time continuum, but that's also what Count Bleck did.
 
Apparently Time Eater is different. Don't know how it's different and honestly don't care all that much lol

And no. Going outside of time and literally transcending it are regarded as differing things. Moving in timeless space isn't the same as transcending it like a higher dimension transcends a lower.
 
Ah, I gotcha, XD

Oh... Okay. So, say I am bound by time, but I go outside of it, I'm infinite, while if I never abided by time in the first place, I'm immeasurable?

I don't see much difference between Count Bleck and the Time Eater, so one day I might make a content revision, but, eh... Who knows.
 
I'm not saying Time Eater and Dimentio are the same, but I've asked multiple times how they're different and gotten rather unsatisfactory responses. If someone could better explain the differences, I'd be more than glad to permanently concede on that.

And I believe your idea is correct, but it might be good to hear what other staff have to say as well.

But like I said there was a huge debate on what qualifies for infinite/immeasurable and a lot of it I'm just rather neutral about. So I can't give personal opinions rather just try my best to explain how we currently handle it.
 
Same. If I got a good explanation on the difference, I'd happily accept it. But at the current moment, it just seems to me that Dimentio would qualify for immeasurable.

So should we leave this open for now? Or should I ask another staff member on their wall? If the latter, do you have any suggestion on who to ask?

I understand that. Thank you for trying though.
 
Well I'd also be fine with a Time Eater downgrade rather a Dimentio upgrade. Or even both get downgraded further. Just seems like their ratings are based on the same thing.

If you're satisfied with your answer I should close it, however I think I'll leave it up open for a little bit so another staff can correct you or I if we got anything wrong.

But no problem.
 
Yeah, I'd be fine with that too. What is bothering me is that we rate someone lower than another for doing the same thing.

At the moment I am satisfied with just about everything, except the Dimentio & Time Eater concerns.
 
Infinite speed means moving anywhere instantly, while time literally stands still, whereas Immeasurable means: "Higher-dimensional entities beyond linear time and 3-D distance, and its' concepts of speed. However, take note that higher order dimensional nature does not automatically guarantee this. The speed statistic should be listed as "Immeasurable" only if a character is completely transcendental to the distance, time, and causality of a normal universal continuum."
 
In addition, there is the rule concerning Infinite speed that Ryukama mentioned, in order to avoid outliers and plot convenience.
 
On the topic of this about Infinite and Immeasurable speed, is Giorno's GER really supposed to have Infinite speed still or no? I've been hearing a lot of stuff about his stand having it and whatnot and some of it i think were complaints or questions about it.

IDK of the others who still have it or not for doing something similar.
 
@Ant: Yes, but doesn't infinite also apply to those who move in erased time? I think I'm beginning to understand immeasurable more, but infinite seems... odd.

If infinite applies to both the constraints of time, being able to move anywhere instantly, but also those beyond, like moving in erased time... Like, wouldn't there need to be something in between? Isn't that in of itself an infinite difference? I understand that immeasurable means that time never affected you, but if infinite applies to two different things—pushing the limits of time, and bypassing it altogether...

And that still brings me back to a couple other things—is the rule about infinite speed the reason why some characters are at infinite, and others are immeasurable? Because if that's the case, shouldn't Time Eater be downgraded to infinite as well? I apologize if you've answered these already, I am still just a bit confused.
 
@Metal Mario

I do not have a good grasp of what immeasurable speed means myself, but it can mean having more than one dimension of time.

In either case, moving while time stands still, and moving while time does not exist basically mostly seem to amount to the same thing.

However, given how common it is that characters that have not exhibited any remotely comparable speed feats, are still able to move outside of a time-space continuum, or after it has been destroyed, as a plot convenience, we tend to only give infinite speed to characters that are naturally part of this type of environment.
 
@CrossverseCrisis

I do not know. If he has othervise not demonstrated infinite speed, it may just be a hax or plot convenience, but it might be best to start a separate content revision thread asking for input.
 
@Ant: AFAIK, it only had like one showing of that which was moving in erased time and....well that was it really. I'll make one later on then about it.
 
Okay. That is probably best.
 
It's impossible to prove infinite speed, so how do you know an infinite speed statement is not hyperbole? Being MFTL+ is still not anywhere near infinite
 
It has to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. Being shown moving while time literally stands still qualifies as infinite speed though.
 
Cronus from Saint Seiya, for instance, has a very straightforward Infinite Speed feat:

When using his Pragma Spathe technique, he literally erases both time and distance between his fist and his opponent, effectively making his punch teleport and hit the opponent instantly. That is Infinite Speed.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Of course it is possible. You just have to move in a timeframe of 0.
Click to expand...
Do all profiles with infinite speed on the wiki follow this parameter? Like GER for example is stated to be infinite for a different reason i think. Or does erased time count as 0 timeframe in this case?
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Cronus from Saint Seiya, for instance, has a very straightforward Infinite Speed feat:
When using his Pragma Spathe technique, he literally erases both time and distance between his fist and his opponent, effectively making his punch teleport and hit the opponent instantly. That is Infinite Speed.
Click to expand...
Ok. How do we determine such cases are not outliers in general? Like a relatively slow verse having this hax mechanic of cutting down distance amd time to 0. Saint Seiya has lots of high end speed feats so it could be acceptable for the verse
 
If a character can achieve Infinite Speed through specific Hax, then it is not an Outlier, period. At least not for him.
 
I have to go to school soon, so I sadly won't be able to respond for awhile, but I thank you for helping, Ant.

Okay... So, like, High 1-C characters are automatically immeasurable?

Alright, so stopped time and erased time are pretty much the same... Okay, I think I get that now.

But in Super Paper Mario, it was a common thing to have to go into somewhere with erased existence. Count Bleck and his minions spend the whole game in there, and then there's Sammer's Kingdom, and then there's The Void they enter.

And Time Eater is in the same boat as Count Bleck—both spent their entire time outside of the space-time continuum, moved outside of it, and manipulated time while none existed. The only difference is that Time Eater is immeasurable, while Count Bleck (and everyone he scales to, like Dimentio and Paper Mario) are infinite. And they both only appeared in one game too—I just don't see the problem.

I honestly think we should either put Time Eater at infinite, or Count Bleck, Dimentio & Paper Mario at immeasurable.
 
I think that the Time Eater should have infinite speed in that case.
 
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