I Think This Wiki Doesnt Make Sense, Help Me With My Mentsl Crisis (Possibly Part 1)

[Gzartus]

im having a mental breakdown and i was questioning lots of things recently on vsbattles. i have been checking vsbattles for like 2 years and i love to see vs. but i dont know why i came with this: for example naruto is like planet buster, even though naruto is planetary, he got hurt several times by boruto and himawari. so you are telling me that 2 brats are planetary or higher cuz they hurt naruto? damn cant wait for them to flick their finger and destroy a continent or more. of course not, maybe naruto wasnt planetary to begin with. what am trying to say is that we over look at them making characters like finn multiversal. Even though there are proof that he hurt lich that could affect like universal scale and other high tier beings but finn is still a human kid and he gets hurt by normal stuff just as the villains cuz its not an outlier or inconsistency, that is the true self of the characters and adventure time creator refers to him as a normal human. oh no my bad, he meant a multiversal breaker "normal human" capable of killing multiversal gods and stuff". Jake got hurt and severely damaged by crashing with a tree, of course cuz its a UNIVERSAL TREE, "its an outlier" shut up, jake and finn got hurt through the series several times by normal stuff. look at anti pops getting hurt by an arcade game machine or goat "oh my bad, using vsbattled way of analyzing that must be a universal goat of course", or Pops who is "MASSIVELY FTL+" but barely escapes a black hole or goku hurt by bullet "kI sUppRessIoN". Authors arent really scientific enough so when they make things like the infamous "universal punch" goku and beerus did. Authors arent aware of what they are doing, its like only for the "cool/badass powerful effect" so following vsbattles way of measuring, if X character moved really fast and a bunch of humans saw it then they are all ftl speed, EVERYONE IN THE PLANET IS FTL?! or thor getting knocked by a bullet, the creator doesnt care about how strong his character is by being analyzed. what im trying to say is similar to when flash saved a city from a bomb and he said that was lightspeed even though that was faster. Not what am trying to say but similar, see it as if it was vise versa as if we were the ones stating even though it might not be accurate. It would be acceptable if we used this page as a "theory" or different point of views from the characters power but its dumb when people actually uses it as the REAL CHARACTER POWER and take other stuff of the characters that could be the actual real power and see it as an inconsistency or outlier. A OPM guide book says boros attack is a star buster but why isnt this on vsbattles? Why is boros unknown but saitama continental when he clearly punched away that solar buster attack. pff NOW WE USE THE "REAL CHARACTER POWER" HUH? The wiki puts saitama as continental cuz he deflected an attack that we dont know its potential? If boros is unknow then why isnt saitama too? maybe that could affect the solar system but boros didnt mind since he was focused on the planet (on saitama to be more specific) and obviously the planet was gonna be affected. we dont know, and if he could people would take it as an "outlier" or false stuff or something like that. is like pointing at someone with a big bomb at their house and say "im gonna send you to hell", that doesnt mean im gonna just kill you, im also gonna destroy the house and people inside and potentially more. WE JUST DONT KNOW and we take conclusions? Then i could watch a freaking minecraft animation and i could say they are all moving at FTL speeds but the spectator has to see them and their attacks could be universal but highly supressed, or characters that are "FTL" but get tired after running like 5km. i know that was a dumb example but still. Maybe that is why some DB characters overhype their planet attacks. maybe we know too much about this wiki and other factors that we see it dumb when we see an inconsistency, maybe ignorance is better idk. but maybe we are all wrong about our wsy of measuring. The more i think about it the more confused i get, if you have the right asnwer for my question help me please, thanks for reading all this.

 

[Antvasima]

Fiction is extremely inconsistent. Logically characters with universe-busting power or above should have an impossible time restraining themselves without destroying their entire continuums, but yet they do.

Similarly, characters with planet-busting physical power shouldn't remotely be threatened by knives or guns, but yet they recurrently are.

Our job is to try to find legitimate feats that are not complete outliers to scale from, and then apply those statistics to the characters.

 

[Gzartus]

finn is not containing himself to not destroy the multiverse. From our Vsbattles point of view they do contain themselves but clearly the character and inside their stories is not. We overlook them, im not saying is bad (at all) since we are trying to understand how strong they could be but that doesnt mean they are just as we say it is. In series, universes destruction, power, attacks, power scaling, etc, is different. Everyone scale their power by logic and "cool" but they dont know how much destruction destroying a universe is cuz they arent scientist. Vsbattles says finn is multiversal but he is hurt by knifes, low tier punches, objects such as chairs, trees, etc up to the point where is not an outlier. We guide mostly by feats but sometimes we dont look at the character true "power". i would say vsbattles is like where we try to analyze X character by their feats in our way but our result shouldnt be taken seriously or define it as the true undeniable power of X character cuz it is like our Point of View for debates but in actuality the character is not like that and people who do not know about vsbattles (like every author in the world and many others) have a different power scaling from ours based by normal reasoning which in our case is not applied since we study, analyze and investigate the character so deep that we come with such conclusions. That is why some "inconsistencies" like goku dying to a wall level laser is a thing and maybe we should change our point of view and not over study goku cuz maybe that "inconsistency" wasnt inconsistent at all. This problem caused the "No limits fallacy" and many others due to the ignorant amount of people that watches fiction stuff, which is like 95%. That is why people sees saitama stronger than many characters that we classified as high tiers like goku. imagine you are a normal person with no knowledge of vsbattles and you see saitama vs goku, you will say saitama is stronger cuz a goku punch is like a normal punch, people sees a normal punch, EVERYONE SEES A NORMAL PUNCH but now if we compare it to a saitama punch (the boros fight punch used on the end) you will obviously say "damn, saitama is a god, man" but know that we studied that character, analyzed from vsbattles point of view you can clearly see that saitama is weaker and you would say "damn, saitama is a weakling". do you ger what im trying to say? i hope so

 

[Gzartus]

and i still want to know why is boros unknown and saitama not

here is what i said

A OPM guide book says boros attack is a star buster but why isnt this on vsbattles? Why is boros unknown but saitama continental when he clearly punched away that star buster attack. pff NOW WE USE THE "REAL CHARACTER POWER" HUH? The wiki puts saitama as continental cuz he deflected an attack that we dont know its potential? If boros is unknown then why isnt saitama too? maybe that could affect the solar system but boros didnt mind since he was focused on the planet (on saitama to be more specific) and obviously the planet was gonna be affected. we dont know, and if he could people would take it as an "outlier" or false stuff or something like that. is like pointing at someone with a big bomb at their house and say "im gonna send you to hell", that doesnt mean im gonna just kill you, im also gonna destroy the house and people inside and potentially more. WE JUST DONT KNOW and we take conclusions?

 

[Antvasima]

I cannot fix every profile. Sorry. However, I am trying to get Adventure Time downgraded, and Saitama will probably be upgraded when we learn more about him.

 

[Gzartus]

well im not trying to downgrade every character on vsbattles, more like make people understand what im trying to say. If vsbattles says X character is capable of destroying the multiverse, it shouldnt be considered 100% true unless on the story its confirmed the character is restraining itself which could be cool for a plot, but still some mutliversal character can get hurt by normal stuff unless the authors make him super tough too. Like for example anti-pops, he might be universal but got hurt by a goat, an arcade box machine and i think other stuff too. Mainly because we dont know the exact power scale the author has for us to measure it in our way. at the end of the day i will keep being active on vsbattles but i think is dumb to define some characters power even though the authors intention, story and power scale on the series is different. The only thing i really want to change is saitama profile either "unknown" and/or "at least big star" since he easily destroyed the attack with boros on the way with no effort at all. ironically i came with this because of dragon ball's inconsistency of the infamous "ki supression" which i will probably talk on the forum soon.

 

[Gzartus]

wait what happened here, am i right or not?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeathOfTheAuthor

Author intent means nothing

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Please don't take this the wrong way but you need to work on formatting your posts so they aren't just one continous wall of text. People are going to avoid reading this thread like the plague because of how badly it's formatted.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

As for why we don't take Boros attack as star buster because star in japanese doesn't always mean an actual star, it can be translated to planet or even lower than that, and i remember Muruta debunking the WoG

 

[Amexim]

This would probably be a good time for me to post this— I want to find a way to detail the philosophy and idea of VSB in a decent way, so help would be appreciated, especially since people outside of the community and even people in it seem to be laboring under misconceptions when we discuss these things. This guy, for example, seems to not understand some of the basics, since they make, no offense, but rookie mistakes about how things go. This is just a draft for a part of it, I probably am just gonna keep this for myself, but I want to see if this helps. Plz comment on how helpful this is when explaining to normies and the uninitiated/inexperienced.

The philosophy of Versus Debating, or "Powerscaling":

What people who engage in this niche area of literary/fictional analysis do is simple in premise. We answer the question of "How strong is X character?" Or variations of the question as it relates to how strong, fast, or deadly an aspect of fiction is. We work under a few assumptions.

Even though characters' strength and speed and energy output as it relates to real world physics are often not consistent from instant to instant, we go by the most powerful/fast and most consistent "major" or "significant" feats and assume that the character is capable of outputting that amount of force or moving that fast consistently as if they were a real person. The degree to which we apply certain rules or affects of physics vary, but generally, we use the concept of Attack Potency to say a character's strength, or attack power in any other sense, is equivalent to a certain value of energy in Joules. Whether they consistently destroy that much on screen doesn't really matter, because fiction tends to violate the laws of conservation of matter amongst other things and the best way— arguably the only way to understand how strong a character is is through the use of physics. So we try to apply it in a way that preserves both sides. This means that Solar System busters or fighters who can strike with the force of a white dwarf star exploding on your face like the Flash's infinite mass punch don't have to nuke the rest of the city with the air pressure of their strikes. Forcing the assumption that character's are not as strong as they are stated, calculated, or demonstrated to be from moment to moment all over the work of fiction just because of their inconsistent strength or even mundane showings goes against the fundamental assumptions and premises of the conversation.

For example, appealing to reality about how nothing with mass can travel faster than light and refusing to accept any ideas or premises revolving a character who can do so demonstrates that you refuse to entertain the concept of superhuman fantasy nonsense that this type of conversation and debate entertains, and like with all conversations, if you fundamentally disagree with the premises needed to have discussions, there's no point in engaging further. Saying things like, "you can't apply real physics to fiction" and saying that you shouldn't even try, while somewhat true, also goes against the conversations baseline premises and, well, you shouldn't bother agreeing, disagreeing, or even voicing your opinion about something that's basically being talked about in another language and with a whole different set of logic and agreed upon truths, ideas, and premises.

So when characters throw punches at the speed of light with the power to destroy moons but don't even destroy the building in front of them, don't split hairs. So long as those feats that demonstrate this premise are relevant, consistent, logical, significant, or by any metric viable, then they are supposed to have that level of power in their mundane looking punches, and when considering them in the context of versus battles and in the context of their stories to some degree or another, we take this to be factual.

While you could criticize the philosophy as a whole to have confirmation bias by denying feats that discredit their weaknesses or inability to be as strong from moment to moment— their strength is inconsistent so there's no way to know how strong they are, and ignoring the contradictions to every showing isn't going to give you an accurate answer to find their consistent strength, and because of this, the whole practice is pointless, and this can never be done— the question can never be answered, this, again, goes against the premises we operate under. We take the strongest, most overall viable showings as a charity and good faith attempt to find the true potential of characters. It's a lot to ask for writers to know physics well enough to portray every swing of the superhuman's arms with the exact proper physics, and that incapability shouldn't get in the way of the pursuit of answers in this field which many do for fun.

The philosophy on how this is done might be different from group to group, individual to individual, online culture to online culture, but the general premises are followed in this way. Many just calc the strongest or fastest thing, check if it makes sense to be at their level of capability and/or is most consistent in their verse because often times the writer themselves doesn't pay attention to how strong their character is, and death of the author— negating the author's way or desires outside of what they created as if they were dead and couldn't answer or explain questions— is one justification for it, along with the tropes of "writers can't do math or physics". A lot of the time, writers write things that are impossible in reality. Many find it more absurd to reject events in a book from being canon and real in their universe than it is to just accept this weird take on physics. Refusing to deny superpowers and beyond normal feats in a story is just an extension of that logic. Which rules we apply and don't apply and when depend on the context and the methods of the analyzer or "powerscaler", but we generally use the basics of physics to do so via calculations, adding more or less depending on all the variables or reasons listed previously, all in pursuit to find a generally accurate strength of the character's or situations in question and operating under the premise that their strength can be somewhat consistent— as though the fictional universe was consistent, real, predictable, and unlike what it truly is— an inconsistent mess that varies on the whims of the writer— that it's its own reality with laws that it had to follow, so that these conversations hold meaning.

This can lead to things appearing strange to outsiders or those without knowledge or context— things like Multiversal Finn the human from Adventure Time or Building level Gumball waterson might make no sense and sound absurd to those who don't have the same premises to follow or do not understand the scaling/feats. Things like Goku being universal in one moment but tile level in the next and using that low end showing to discredit the entire verse's numerous feats because now he is recently wall level instead of what he was before this, retconning how strong he is comes from not understanding "outliers" and how they are applied or determined— as we toss out the "silly inconsistencies" or however one determines which situations and showings should be considered valuable or not or how characters in fiction seem to be able to control the AoE of their superpowered projectile attacks and even physical strikes. Sometimes the wind from their punches destroys even weaker characters and other times there is no wind at all.

Many don't worry about these inconsistencies unless they try to downplay characters and verses they dislike or think aren't or shouldn't be as strong as others believe and this is hotly contested. It's this conflict where most of the conversation about these things come about.

Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.

 

[Antvasima]

@Amexim

We obviously cannot place your text in an official page, but thank you for helping out here.

 

[Amexim]

I know I know, I was just writing it for myself! Lol. I have issues with remembering why something makes sense, and I figured that someone somewhere would not understand us. So, if someone was to read this somehow, that would help them. Don't put it on the site anywhere, of course, it's a nonsense essay that you don't need. Like Sera would say, we don't need to try to bring in people who don't understand, but... Anyone who's here can look at this I guess.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, a wiki philosophy introductory explanation page probably wouldn't hurt, but the staff would need to structure it much better.

 

[Amexim]

Most definitely. Even I think i'm Missing something crucial.

 

[Gzartus]

@amexim that happens to me too, i write and keep writting or my idea will fade so i try to write all my ideas

 

[Gzartus]

@WeeklyBattles authors words is just a small part of my idea. even though it might take a little role sometimes authors words could actually help define a character's power cuz they created the character but this is vsbattles anyway, why to bother? am i right?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, since the questions have been answered, I will close this thread.