I need some help regarding this

[Tatsumi504]

I don't know if external links like this are allowed so please be lenient with me if its not but I found this post on Reddit and I wanted to know What this forum thinks about this kind of argument

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I immediately want to disregard the argument when he starts using words like Omnipotent. Also, his argument makes no sense.

He's saying because every character exists within Narrative Stacks, they would be Infinitely below someone who is real, such as Kirito. However, Kirito is not real and he himself is a fictional character who exists within his own Narrative. And I'm pretty sure Narrative Stacks arent scaled because we assume they contain other versus in them.

It's all in comparison to other SCP Characters who are already at certain levels within the Narrative Stacks.

 

[Tatsumi504]

I immediately want to disregard the argument when he starts using words like Omnipotent. Also, his argument makes no sense.

He's saying because every character exists within Narrative Stacks, they would be Infinitely below someone who is real, such as Kirito. However, Kirito is not real and he himself is a fictional character who exists within his own Narrative. And I'm pretty sure Narrative Stacks arent scaled because we assume they contain other versus in them.

It's all in comparison to other SCP Characters who are already at certain levels within the Narrative Stacks.

I think you misunderstood, I don't remember seeing omnipotent being mentioned, his argument is despite Kiri to being a work of fiction he is real in his own narrative, while the narrative stack SCP 3812 keeps transcending is a work of fiction inside fiction.

Basically Kiri to exists in a baseline reality while the entire narrative stack is a lower level of reality.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I think you misunderstood, I don't remember seeing omnipotent being mentioned, his argument is despite Kiri to being a work of fiction he is real in his own narrative, while the narrative stack SCP 3812 keeps transcending is a work of fiction inside fiction.

Basically Kiri to exists in a baseline reality while the entire narrative stack is a lower level of reality.

This is my understanding I may be wrong.

A Narrative Stack doesn't devalue what occurs within it compared to something else. It's not dependent on what is perceived or not perceived as real.

Vault Boy and Sole Survivor are both characters within the story of Fallout which has its own Author. Just like SCP 3812 was originally just a character that exists within his own story with his own author.

In the exact same way Kirito is not a real person, but a character. He's a part of the Sword Art Online Narrative and has an author. He lives in a reality created by his writer. He's no different from SCP 3812 when he was created nor Vault Boy or Sole Survivor.

SCP 3812 transcended his Narrative Stack, which is the reality created by his author and which e existed in. He rose into a higher Narrative Stack where SCP 3812 was just a story. A lower Narrative within a higher plane.

This Higher Plane potentially has an Infinite Number of Dimensions, or may just consist of a single Universe just like our world. No one knows, but as he rises through Infinite Narrative Stacks there is a guarantee one of them will include a Narrative that fits the bill for dimensional scaling.

In the end, everything exists within a Narrative Stack if it has an Author. It's not some made-up concept by the SCP Verse but just a fact. If you write a story then you are creating a Narrative. Even SCP 3812's story of transcending Narratives was a part of a Narrative Stack.

That's why he eventually will fully transcend even the Infinite Narratives that contain him. Yet even then he will continue to transcend. As there is always a higher narrative as long as he is a part of a story.

 

[Tatsumi504]

This is my understanding I may be wrong.

A Narrative Stack doesn't devalue what occurs within it compared to something else. It's not dependent on what is perceived or not perceived as real.

Vault Boy and Sole Survivor are both characters within the story of Fallout which has its own Author. Just like SCP 3812 was originally just a character that exists within his own story with his own author.

In the exact same way Kirito is not a real person, but a character. He's a part of the Sword Art Online Narrative and has an author. He lives in a reality created by his writer. He's no different from SCP 3812 when he was created nor Vault Boy or Sole Survivor.

SCP 3812 transcended his Narrative Stack, which is the reality created by his author and which e existed in. He rose into a higher Narrative Stack where SCP 3812 was just a story. A lower Narrative within a higher plane.

This Higher Plane potentially has an Infinite Number of Dimensions, or may just consist of a single Universe just like our world. No one knows, but as he rises through Infinite Narrative Stacks there is a guarantee one of them will include a Narrative that fits the bill for dimensional scaling.

In the end, everything exists within a Narrative Stack if it has an Author. It's not some made-up concept by the SCP Verse but just a fact. If you write a story then you are creating a Narrative. Even SCP 3812's story of transcending Narratives was a part of a Narrative Stack.

That's why he eventually will fully transcend even the Infinite Narratives that contain him. Yet even then he will continue to transcend. As there is always a higher narrative as long as he is a part of a story.

Then why does a tier 11 exist on this Exist on this wiki and for the record I know nothing about scp wiki except what I'll find in other forums or respect threads.
In the same way that Kirito or any fictional character can't affect us IRL, SCP 3812 can't affect the one writing the the infinite narratives in the narrative stack and the author of the narrative stack too is a fictional character thereby making the narrative stack lower level realities.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Then why does a tier 11 exist on this Exist on this wiki and for the record I know nothing about scp wiki except what I'll find in other forums or respect threads.
In the same way that Kirito or any fictional character can't affect us IRL, SCP 3812 can't affect the one writing the the infinite narratives in the narrative stack and the author of the narrative stack too is a fictional character thereby making the narrative stack lower level realities.

I think the concept works like this.

Let's say in Narrative A, SCP 3812 exists as he is now. A story about a being transcending Narrative Stacks.

Now let's say he transcends that Narrative and exists in a Narrative B. Narrative A may have just been some random fictional world a random Author made. And the people in Narrative B could have no idea of who SCP 3812 even is. But in the end, he now exists in their world because he transcended one of Narrative B's lower narratives.

Now you have two SCP 3812s. One that exists in Narrative A as a fictional character constantly transcending Infinite Hiarchy's and DImensions and the other that now exists in Narrative B, sees that "Fictional" SCP 3812 as fiction.

And let's say now there's Narrative C which is a Narrative I just created to explain this all to you. Now SCP 3812 will transcend Narrative B seeing that previous SCP 3812 which is already transcending infinite Narritives as fiction.

It's a never-ending self-imposed loop of transcending higher and higher narratives. Which in themselves contain Infinite Narratives because SCP 3812 existed in them and made it so.

The reason it wouldn't be Tier 11 is that dimensions are subjective. If I was a 5D Being but had no clue I was I 5D, I might think I'm 3 Dimensional, whether that's the truth or not, I won't be able to find out. And because I can't find out and no one else can find out that were actually 5D we believe we are 3D beings and everything below us is 2D, 1D, or 0D.

The same way SCP 3812's world was "3D" originally and his author is technically a higher dimensional being who may or may not know he is. All we can do is base the Tiering System off of SCP 3812's original world and go up from there. As there is no reason to go down.

 

[Arthex]

nvm, that was my mistake thinking its abt scp 3812 vs Toaa.

also are we talking about the kirito from Sao?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Word of advice, it is heavily frowned upon to make a thread centered around CharacterRant posts.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

This is my understanding I may be wrong.

A Narrative Stack doesn't devalue what occurs within it compared to something else. It's not dependent on what is perceived or not perceived as real.

Vault Boy and Sole Survivor are both characters within the story of Fallout which has its own Author. Just like SCP 3812 was originally just a character that exists within his own story with his own author.

In the exact same way Kirito is not a real person, but a character. He's a part of the Sword Art Online Narrative and has an author. He lives in a reality created by his writer. He's no different from SCP 3812 when he was created nor Vault Boy or Sole Survivor.

SCP 3812 transcended his Narrative Stack, which is the reality created by his author and which e existed in. He rose into a higher Narrative Stack where SCP 3812 was just a story. A lower Narrative within a higher plane.

This Higher Plane potentially has an Infinite Number of Dimensions, or may just consist of a single Universe just like our world. No one knows, but as he rises through Infinite Narrative Stacks there is a guarantee one of them will include a Narrative that fits the bill for dimensional scaling.

In the end, everything exists within a Narrative Stack if it has an Author. It's not some made-up concept by the SCP Verse but just a fact. If you write a story then you are creating a Narrative. Even SCP 3812's story of transcending Narratives was a part of a Narrative Stack.

That's why he eventually will fully transcend even the Infinite Narratives that contain him. Yet even then he will continue to transcend. As there is always a higher narrative as long as he is a part of a story.

I think the concept works like this.

Let's say in Narrative A, SCP 3812 exists as he is now. A story about a being transcending Narrative Stacks.

Now let's say he transcends that Narrative and exists in a Narrative B. Narrative A may have just been some random fictional world a random Author made. And the people in Narrative B could have no idea of who SCP 3812 even is. But in the end, he now exists in their world because he transcended one of Narrative B's lower narratives.

Now you have two SCP 3812s. One that exists in Narrative A as a fictional character constantly transcending Infinite Hiarchy's and DImensions and the other that now exists in Narrative B, sees that "Fictional" SCP 3812 as fiction.

And let's say now there's Narrative C which is a Narrative I just created to explain this all to you. Now SCP 3812 will transcend Narrative B seeing that previous SCP 3812 which is already transcending infinite Narritives as fiction.

It's a never-ending self-imposed loop of transcending higher and higher narratives. Which in themselves contain Infinite Narratives because SCP 3812 existed in them and made it so.

The reason it wouldn't be Tier 11 is that dimensions are subjective. If I was a 5D Being but had no clue I was I 5D, I might think I'm 3 Dimensional, whether that's the truth or not, I won't be able to find out. And because I can't find out and no one else can find out that were actually 5D we believe we are 3D beings and everything below us is 2D, 1D, or 0D.

The same way SCP 3812's world was "3D" originally and his author is technically a higher dimensional being who may or may not know he is. All we can do is base the Tiering System off of SCP 3812's original world and go up from there. As there is no reason to go down.

Can someone summarize these posts more concisely for me? I want it to be on VS Battles Wiki's permanent record that we've refuted these rants:

 

[KLOL506]

CharacterRant

Questions and Answers

Not on SAO or SCP General Discussions thread

I am tempted to have this thread closed just on these points alone.

 

[SuperStar]

Making threads around character rant are bad?

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Making threads around character rant are bad?

They're like the anti-vsbattleswiki so it's no wonder people on this site have a beef with them.

 

[KLOL506]

Making threads around character rant are bad?

Has been for quite a while now. Especially because 90% of the time people just copy paste the links here, don't give the OP of the reddit thread a chance to explain their reasonings on the forum itself, and/or the actual OP within the forum doesn't usually bother giving their own in-detail explanation of why they think the thread sticks.

It'd not only be a case of plagiarism at best, but it'd be inciting drama between the two factions at worst, given that we will never respect each others' standards due to our conflicting ideals, beliefs and method of battleboarding and character indexing.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I am tempted to have this thread closed just on these points alone.

Okay, I guess you can do that. If I were summarizing to the best of my abilities, we've fairly concisely refuted these two rants, in a nutshell:

• A narrative stack doesn't devalue what occurs within it compared to something else. It doesn't "severely depower" characters because, while characters in verses without RFT are already at their highest narrative, that's a vacuous statement because there are no other narrative layers to be above or below. We don't have to deal with the fact that metafictional characters only affect stuff within their own fiction because the whole idea is a false premise.
• Introducing layers that see the primary narrative as fiction introduces layers above the baseline; it doesn't retroactively make the main narrative inferior to the baseline. Introducing layers that the primary narrative sees as fiction would be creating narratives below the baseline. Saying that someone like Kirito is canonically real despite being fiction while people from SCP are fiction within fiction is a baseless distinction without a difference. The only reasonable thing to do is base the tiering system on the primary narrative and go up, as we have no reason to go down.
• SCP-3812 isn't "only some kind of beyond omnipotent super god if interpreted in a very specific way", that's literally what he's been written to be, and interpreting him any other way severely butchers the spirit of his narrative. The real "very specific" way of interpreting him is trying to relegate such plainly transcendent beings to fodder based on failing to understand some of the most basic RFT rules.

You know, if the kind of people who like to wank their favorite verses with NLF hypothetically came to dominate VS Battles Wiki and the OBD, they would've wanked their favorite verses because they like them. And if they instead came to hate these verses, they would get the overblown statistics removed on the spot. As for these posters on r/CharacterRant, who shuffle out complaint after complaint without coming to directly take any action for such perceived errors on their favorite wiki and forum to bash, framing their rants as lofty sermons spreading the gospel that should somehow supersede the effort of so many contributors who set aside their precious time to build this community, and self-righteously imagining themselves not to be petty haters in the clothing of righteous revolutionaries... well, in a nutshell, if I had to choose between entertaining a conversation with the wankers or the ranters, I should find my sensibilities less offended by the former.
If nobody has anything else to say, we can lock this thread now, and take care to remember its verdict.

 

[KLOL506]

See, that's much better.

 

[KLOL506]

Okay, I guess you can do that. If I were summarizing to the best of my abilities, we've fairly concisely refuted these two rants, in a nutshell:

• A narrative stack doesn't devalue what occurs within it compared to something else. It doesn't "severely depower" characters because, while characters in verses without RFT are already at their highest narrative, that's a vacuous statement because there are no other narrative layers to be above or below. We don't have to deal with the fact that metafictional characters only affect stuff within their own fiction because the whole idea is a false premise.
• Introducing layers that see the primary narrative as fiction introduces layers above the baseline; it doesn't retroactively make the main narrative inferior to the baseline. Introducing layers that the primary narrative sees as fiction would be creating narratives below the baseline. Saying that someone like Kirito is canonically real despite being fiction while people from SCP are fiction within fiction is a baseless distinction without a difference. The only reasonable thing to do is base the tiering system on the primary narrative and go up, as we have no reason to go down.
• SCP-3812 isn't "only some kind of beyond omnipotent super god if interpreted in a very specific way", that's literally what he's been written to be, and interpreting him any other way severely butchers the spirit of his narrative. The real "very specific" way of interpreting him is trying to relegate such plainly transcendent beings to fodder based on failing to understand some of the most basic RFT rules.

You know, if the kind of people who like to wank their favorite verses with NLF hypothetically came to dominate VS Battles Wiki and the OBD, they would've wanked their favorite verses because they like them. And if they instead came to hate these verses, they would get the overblown statistics removed on the spot. As for these posters on r/CharacterRant, who shuffle out complaint after complaint without coming to directly take any action for such perceived errors on their favorite wiki and forum to bash, framing their rants as lofty sermons spreading the gospel that should somehow supersede the effort of so many contributors who set aside their precious time to build this community, and self-righteously imagining themselves not to be petty haters in the clothing of righteous revolutionaries... well, in a nutshell, if I had to choose between entertaining a conversation with the wankers or the ranters, I should find my sensibilities less offended by the former.
If nobody has anything else to say, we can lock this thread now, and take care to remember its verdict.

Honestly, this kind of aligns with my whole thoughts about CharacterRant as a whole. This and their condescending arrogance and their mightier-than-thou attitude that they claim to root out from our wiki while succumbing to it themselves.

 

[Antvasima]

Has been for quite a while now. Especially because 90% of the time people just copy paste the links here, don't give the OP of the reddit thread a chance to explain their reasonings on the forum itself, and/or the actual OP within the forum doesn't usually bother giving their own in-detail explanation of why they think the thread sticks.

It'd not only be a case of plagiarism at best, but it'd be inciting drama between the two factions at worst, given that we will never respect each others' standards due to our conflicting ideals, beliefs and method of battleboarding and character indexing.

We should definitely try to stay away from engaging in cross-community hostility, yes.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

You know, when I started thinking about these two rants instead of letting their length and premise intimidate me, I saw that I could quite easily debunk them if I just put some actual effort into trying and employing an active work ethic, which I rarely do IRL, despite their intricacy. I had, as I now think, vainly flattered r/CharacterRant to believe that I somehow needed to mass-request SCP supporters and staff to help me dismantle their arguments.
When someone claims that discussing meta-powers forces you to deal with fictional characters with no actual power for the meta-power to exist or that characters without metafiction would just need to destroy the metafictional media to win, this demonstrates so little knowledge of how RFT works FRA that it almost becomes funny, if it weren't for how nothing is humorous about the kind of self-righteous bullies r/CharacterRant has become. Saying "The only way to make fights with Meta controlling characters really work smoothly is to remove the Meta power entirely, and just agree that all fighters are already at the highest plane of existence within the battlefield." also demonstrates this ignorance, and "The problem with this is there's no basis for treating characters from other verses as if they exist within SCP's narrative stack. 3812 is, within his own verse, fictional, because every character within SCP is fictional." is the same thing. Same with claiming that including RFT and a narrative stack "nerfs [a verse] to an unfathomable degree" without realizing that narrative stacks don't devalue their contents below a baseline reality if they weren't already, that someone like SCP-3812 is infinitely above other fictional people but infinitely below people "real" by their verse's standards because "It's essentially an impassable reality-fiction divide" by making up "one subtle yet very important difference" that's really just a meaningless conjuration based on arbitrarily declaring one particular RFT layer more real than the rest, saying that most fictional characters lack narrative levels because a verse not acknowledging "the existence of narrative or plot as an actual force of reality" somehow means they transcend all verses that do, stuff like SCP somehow being "one of the absolute weakest verses in all of fiction" that scales below biological cells because you're taking an entirely unwarranted interpretation, saying SCP characters "canonically don't exist within their own verse", and using the fact that one can interpret metafiction many ways to fuel a nonsensical rant FRA.
And to take a sledgehammer to this particular comment that drank this Kool-Aid, besides the already refuted FRA parts about SCP's metaverse system somehow being meaningless or making SCP far weaker compared to settings that aren't about such things, this claim that "One of the basic conceits to all fiction is that, in that setting, it's real. SCP says that in the SCP setting it's NOT real. It's all just fictional stories written by some bored *******." fails to see that SCP doesn't say nothing within it is real; the interpretation implicit in any reasonable way is that though the baseline reality is just as real as in our world, it exists within a narrative stack containing others levels of reality that are either more or less real than the baseline. "their universes rules ONLY apply to their own universe", "one series CANNOT rewrite how another series works", "the meta is unique to the setting", "they don't transcend actual fiction. Because no matter how hard someone wanks, it's not real", "regardless of what they write down fiction cannot become real", though technically correct, are all red herrings, as nobody here ever claimed that stuff like SCP-3812 could somehow change the rules of other fictions (they don't need to for them to win matches FRA) or enter our real world, and VS Battles Wiki already acknowledges this anyway. The stuff about Naruto and DC Comics is correct but irrelevant FRA.
TL;DR: r/CharacterRant, we're not handwaving a lot about how 3812 works to make him not fodder, you're handwaving both the letter and spirit of 3812's story and identity to try to relegate such a plainly transcendent being to fodder. Henceforth, trying this with any other metafictional story is verboten on VS Battles Wiki. DO NOT TRY IT AGAIN.
Subjectively speaking, when it comes to battleboarding, only Suggsverse offends my sensibilities more than r/CharacterRant, so that's at least one common enemy between us (the particular comment I linked, not the unrelated post embedded below, at least also debunked being beyond omnipotence, which it actually got right, unlike its feeble attempts at downplaying SCP in the most unreasonable way I've seen someone try yet):

In the future, I plan to buy physical copies of every Suggsverse book and donate them to the Internet Archive so they can digitize them and make accessing them online much easier, just so battleboarders have an easier time accessing and refuting them. If nobody has anything else to say, we can lock this thread now.

 

[Antvasima]

I will close this thread then.