How do we manage D&D canon?

[DontTalkDT]

The question was something I got curious about for no particular reason and the verse page didn't really answer it.
What do we consider canon in D&D? Or, more likely the better question, what separate canons do we consider? Which books (or other media) are our profiles actually based on and why?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The Forgotten Realms wiki actually has a fairly expansive article on what is/isn't considered canon. Granted that pertains only to the Realms, but the same rules apply to every setting. The settings as a whole comprise DnD.

The profiles as they are are almost entirely based upon the sourcebooks- rulebooks that tell you about certain characters, their stats and equipment, etc. Even for novel characters, unfortunately, which means those characters who feature prominently in novels are incomplete (Artemis Entreri, Elminster, etc).

For a very basic answer on canon: anything published by TSR/WotC pertaining to DnD is considered canon unless outright contradicted. That means magazine lore articles from Dragon magazine are considered secondary canon to books and sourcebooks, but still can be used. Same for video games and other media. This goes doubly if said media is referenced elsewhere. For example, the Baldur's Gate games are referenced often in primary canon pieces.

 

[Antoniofer]

I believe they are quite composite between editions, that all written by the same company (at least now?). One of the game's writters explain a little about canonicity here, but it only refer to 5e.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I believe they are quite composite between editions, that all written by the same company (at least now?). One of the game's writters explain a little about canonicity here, but it only refer to 5e.

Each edition is not a new canon, yeah.

 

[DontTalkDT]

The Forgotten Realms wiki actually has a fairly expansive article on what is/isn't considered canon.

Link?

 

[Tllmbrg]

Link?

Canon

forgottenrealms.fandom.com

 

[Qawsedf234]

To further expand

• In-universe the edition changes are explained as cosmic events. 1e to 2e was Ao, 2e to 3e was Vecna, 3e to 4e was Mystra and we don't know how 5e happened yet
• We typically go with the most consistent version of something for the profiles. Like how we classify Troll regen (in BD&D for example Trolls have like Deadpool level regen for god knows what reason)
• If does contradict we take either the most recent version or the most unified version, barring explained away retcons like the Sword of Kas
• We try not to scale stuff between editions without using officially mandated converters, which we consider secondary evidence if they do contradict.

 

[Antoniofer]

Iirc, few creatures were buffed (relatively speaking) in 5e, generally the most well known once (Cloaker and Ghoul comes to mind), so at least between 5e to any other edition, conversion may not be accurate. Plus, abilities in 5e are a little more abstract with the advantage system (like being flanked is as dangerous as be blind).

 

[Tllmbrg]

Iirc, few creatures were buffed (relatively speaking) in 5e, generally the most well known once (Cloaker and Ghoul comes to mind), so at least between 5e to any other edition, conversion may not be accurate. Plus, abilities in 5e are a little more abstract with the advantage system (like being flanked is as dangerous as be blind).

Ghoul
Buffed

What

 

[Antoniofer]

I said "relatively"; as an example, the ghoul's CR in 3e was of 1, same as in 5e, however, how dangerous/powerful creatures can be in 5e were capped, when in 3e a ghoul (or a ghast) is not as powerful as brown bear or few dire animals, in 5e is now equally dangerous. For the cloaker, passed from CR 5 to CR 8, when in 3e was less dangerous several dinosaurs, in 5e is categorized as dangerous as a t-rex (that btw, a t-rex and triceratops were CR 8 and 9 respectively, but now they CR 8 and 5).

Is possible that those especific examples coincidence, but at the naked one it seems 5e changed few things with the scaling from one edition to other.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I said "relatively"; as an example, the ghoul's CR in 3e was of 1, same as in 5e, however, how dangerous/powerful creatures can be in 5e were capped, when in 3e a ghoul (or a ghast) is not as powerful as brown bear or few dire animals, in 5e is now equally dangerous. For the cloaker, passed from CR 5 to CR 8, when in 3e was less dangerous several dinosaurs, in 5e is categorized as dangerous as a t-rex (that btw, a t-rex and triceratops were CR 8 and 9 respectively, but now they CR 8 and 5).

Is possible that those especific examples coincidence, but at the naked one it seems 5e changed few things with the scaling from one edition to other.

technically for the Ghoul it's more like different things were weighted slightly differently rather than any actual upgrade

either way, neither the Cloaker or the Ghoul changed enough CRs to change tiers between editions.

 

[Antoniofer]

This is more of a scaling issue rather than a tier issue, creatures and character that were qualified as equaly powerful they are now separated by a considerable margin of power that very well can be a mitmatch, like a winter wolf and a cloaker, they used to be CR 5 in 3e and now one is CR 3 and the other CR 8.

 

[Tllmbrg]

This is more of a scaling issue rather than a tier issue, creatures and character that were qualified as equaly powerful they are now separated by a considerable margin of power that very well can be a mitmatch, like a winter wolf and a cloaker, they used to be CR 5 in 3e and now one is CR 3 and the other CR 8.

Each edition has a a canonical reason for changing stuff so I fail to see the proble with that lol
Plus Cloakers even in 3.5e ended higher overall then Winter Wolves since Cloaker Lords are a thing so

 

[Antoniofer]

We're not talking about a character that becomes stronger or weaker with time, we're talking about an entire species evolving from being a prey to be the predator of another one, not that it couldn't be possible, but there most be a good reason why something like that happened. Plus, if you say that there's canonical reasons for these changes, then using official convertion processes does not work, as Qawsed suggested.

Also, was talking about cloakers not that one specific cloaker variant that is stronger than the conventional one, and this was just an example, if you take a look at other creatures you will notice that the scaling changed as well.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The biggest change was the high tier Devils and Demons. Since in 3e/4e they were weaker than Elemental Princes but in 5e they got buffed to be stronger. Which messes with our 6-C scaling really badly.

 

[Tllmbrg]

(If anyone wonders about the comment I deleted I realized I completely misunderstood Anto's comment)

 

[Tllmbrg]

We're not talking about a character that becomes stronger or weaker with time, we're talking about an entire species evolving from being a prey to be the predator of another one, not that it couldn't be possible, but there most be a good reason why something like that happened. Plus, if you say that there's canonical reasons for these changes, then using official convertion processes does not work, as Qawsed suggested.

We don't use conversion for 3.5e anyways
Only for 4e, 1e and 2e since they use different systems anyways

 

[Mr. Bambu]

This is more of a scaling issue rather than a tier issue, creatures and character that were qualified as equaly powerful they are now separated by a considerable margin of power that very well can be a mitmatch, like a winter wolf and a cloaker, they used to be CR 5 in 3e and now one is CR 3 and the other CR 8.

We normally handle this as "Varies" or a "possibly" if they actually shift enough to change a tier. Like Cloakers changing 3 CR doesn't actually change their tier at all- CR 5 and CR 8 are both solidly 9-A. Winter Wolf would probably be "At least 9-B, possibly/likely/what have you 9-A". It's all about finding a decent compromise.

 

[Tllmbrg]

We normally handle this as "Varies" or a "possibly" if they actually shift enough to change a tier. Like Cloakers changing 3 CR doesn't actually change their tier at all- CR 5 and CR 8 are both solidly 9-A. Winter Wolf would probably be "At least 9-B, possibly/likely/what have you 9-A". It's all about finding a decent compromise.

Eh Bambu I already made a page for it with Varies

Winter Wolf

White and larger then their regular counterpart the Winter Wolf is a fearsome predator whose well adepted to hunting in snowy areas. They're immune to the cold and able to spew cones of coldness from their mouths. This, alongside their ambush tactics and natural strength, makes them deadly...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Eh Bambu I already made a page for it with Varies

Winter Wolf

White and larger then their regular counterpart the Winter Wolf is a fearsome predator whose well adepted to hunting in snowy areas. They're immune to the cold and able to spew cones of coldness from their mouths. This, alongside their ambush tactics and natural strength, makes them deadly...

vsbattles.fandom.com

didja read the first line of what I said

 

[Tllmbrg]

didja read the first line of what I said

Second part implied we didn't have a page for it smh