Hollow Knight Revisions

[Armorchompy]

Hello folks, before the big boy Hornet CRT I wanna clean up some things in the Hollow Knight verse right now, some have been revealed to be false in the wake of Silksong and some others simply don't hold up to scrutiny. There are also a few new things that I want to add, and new/reworked calcs for the setting.

New Calcs​

• Attack Potency
  • Hornet Crushes a Bridge - 3.26 x 10^8 Joules. Fortuitously done by Hornet at her absolute most weakened so just about anyone other than fodder should scale to this, we were already scaling early game HK bosses to Hornet and that's a lot more convincing with this new feat done when she's so weak.
  • Far Fields Explosion - 1.29 x 10^8 Joules. Early game Silksong feat.
  • Nyleth's Floor Bust - 8.34 x 10^7 Joules. Late game Silksong feat.
  • If you've played Silksong you know there's an earthquake feat that ends up somewhere in tier 7, performed by Grand Mother Silk. I originally agreed with scaling this to characters' physical ratings but over time I've been convinced there's some issues with it - regarding whether it's an outlier, whether GMS scales to it in the state she's fought in and so on. It's a grey area but I presently disagree (EDIT: actually honestly maybe I'm neutral, I dunno how to treat it) with its use, if people want to make a thread to try and apply it they're free to, I'm not going to add a token debunk to it here because that'd sidetrack the conversation and not lead to a productive result either way, because I doubt it would be fully comprehensive.
• Lifting Strength: Hornet Crushes a Bridge - 555 tons. Same feat as the main AP one. When it comes to existing profiles scaling is a little weird here because only the Hollow Knight visibly scales to Hornet. The Radiance ought to also scale via somewhat resisting void tendrils until her death whereas Grand Mother Silk who can overpower Hornet gets dragged in immediately, I'm not sure if there's a solid argument for Nightmare King Grimm upscaling from the HK and the Knight being comparable AP/Speed-wise isn't really evidence that it scales in LS to any one of these people.
  • With that said anyone who doesn't scale to Class K should be changed to Unknown from Below Average Human. We now know bugs get superhuman LS in the setting, there's no reason to assume they're limited by their size.
• Speed: Recalculating Speed - Hypersonic+. Not a new feat but a downgrade to the existing one. The existing calculation doesn't account for the fact that the Knight's swing animation takes a few frames, and as such the results are downgraded. As a small silver lining I think it's fine to scale characters to the highest result outright rather than split the Knight's speed between different techniques like we used to. You can parry the Nailmasters' own Nail Arts and bosses can parry your own so it should all be relative to base combat speed.

TL;DR - Upgrade higher into 9-A, a Class K feat that only the Hollow Knight, the Radiance and Hornet scale to rn, a speed downgrade to Hypersonic+.

Removals​

Universal: Resistance to Soul Manipulation, Mind Manipulation and Life Force Manipulation (The SOUL of bugs is their Mind, Soul and Life Force, and thus to affect it, you must be capable of affecting all three at once, in addition all bugs are shown seemingly undaunted by having their SOUL absorbed by The Knight)

There's two notable issues with this. Firstly the "soul = mind = life" bit comes from this thread and while the evidence produced is extensive, Deonment fails to consider that... well, the soul is the mind in like 99% of depictions. Like if souls are depicted they will probably be the consciousness of the individual, that's nothing unique to Hollow Knight and not really an ability of the verse. Similarly, sure, the soul is what gives life to the body... again, that's just normal. That's what it always does. Even if there was some unique link beyond the standard conception of a soul, there is zero evidence that you actually need to affect all three to affect one (In fact, the Soul Sanctum's experiments with Soul led to some bugs having their bodies warped, which is evidence to the contrary). Besides, in Silksong it's shown that even Void creatures like the Knight have desires and personality of their own, what with the Knight choosing to save Hornet's life, meaning they've got minds despite not having souls, which pretty clearly debunks this theory. Let's be honest, though, the hints were always there.​

​

As for the second half, it's based off the Knight's ability to gain Soul while striking foes and as Silksong confirms, Void [which the Knight is composed of] does indeed seek out and consume any soul it senses, but that does not imply a resistance to the ability proper. The matter of fact is that every bug in the game, even the weakest and most animalistic, resists your attacks until you deal lethal bodily damage. Weak enemies tank a few hits, bosses can take dozens, and your ability to kill them faster is solely reliant on the increased quality of your weapon or the ability to use powerful weapon techniques - in either case it's increasing the physical damage you deal. In Silksong, normal bugs like Shakra can canonically fight off void-possessed enemies whose attacks wear away Hornet's silk (soul-based mana), but it is explicitly clarified that Hornet can only delve in the (void) Abyss thanks to her unique heritage. The logical conclusion here - as with any hax ability that is never shown to be anything other than nonlethal - is that the Soul damage done by a Vessel's attacks is just not enough to typically be deadly, whereas direct Void exposure is. There are even a few fights in Hollow Knight that don't end in the opponent's death (Dung Defender, Grimm, Hornet, Zote) and never does the loser seem to be suffering any kind of lasting effects after the fight, with Zote in particular being a completely normal bug with no special abilities and remaining... as spirited as ever afterwards. Even when the outcome of a fight is lethal enemies typically retain their souls afterwards, as seen with the Dream rematches.​

​

All Bosses (In Godhome): Abstract Existence (Type 1), Immaterial Intangibility and Incorporeality (Exists as a god in the Hall of Gods that exists in the Dream Realm, a place made of essence, which makes up dreams, thoughts, and memories)

Obviously the Godseeker's dreams are uniquely powerful and all dreams in HK have some kind of innate power that can transfer to the real world (Essence being drained in Hollow Knight and physical objects being taken from memories through a powerful spell in Silksong), but that doesn't change the fact that these would be subject to reality equalization. Anything in these dreams is equally tangible to those within it, it's just... well, not real in the proper manner, and if we don't equalize they wouldn't have an AP rating. The Radiance and Grimm keep their Abstract Existence and so do Dream Warriors, because the former are actual dream beings with dream powers and the latter are ghosts manifesting in the real world.​

Soul Master & Higher Beings: Resistance to Soul Manipulation, Mind Manipulation, Life Manipulation and Biological Manipulation (Is considered the most successful and powerful SOUL wielder that emerged from the Soul Sanctum's experiments, which warped the body and damaged the mind's of Mistakes and Follies while)

This is indeed what happened, but the point of experimentation is to reach a discovery through trial and error. Mistakes and Follies are explicitly failed experiments, whereas the Soul Master and other inhabitants of the Soul Sanctum are presumably successful ones. One would assume they underwent an improved version of the procedure, not that they tanked the exact same one.​

​

The Knight: Minor Aura (After obtaining the Kings Brand, Emilita notes that the Knight has obtained a regal aura, like its father the Pale King)

This is just having a kingly presence, not really 'actual' aura.​

Hornet: Resistance to Cold Temperatures (Unfazed by the cold winds of Kingdom's Edge during her second fight with The Knight)

I don't know where the idea of Kingdom's Edge being a particularly cold area comes from. The white stuff is ash, not snow, and it's not ever said to be cold as far as I know. Even if it was, it's actually a pretty inhabited area. Plenty of enemies run around Kingdom's Edge, and Nailmaster Oro and the inhabitants of the Colosseum of Fools both don't really seem to struggle existing here, while Cornifer and Tiso travel through it no problem. Even if it's cold, it's clearly not to an unlivable extent.​

​

Hornet: Summoning (Can summon spiky projectiles)

This is just... throwing things. If this is summoning then shooting a gun is "summoning" bullets. To clarify, Silksong confirms that Hornet's tools (including this specific one) are hand-crafted and physically carried by her, there is nothing supernatural about how they work.​

​

Hollow Knight: Immortality (Type 2. Bursting with the infection which warped their body in the process, capable of stabbing itself multiple times with no long-term ill effects)

I think the ability is fine given it doesn't immediately keel over and die, but the wording is pretty silly, obviously it's doing damage to itself and also doesn't exactly get to see "long term" anything given it gets destroyed like one minute after.​

​

Hollow Knight: Aura (Capable of creating an explosive aura around it, summoning smaller auras around itself afterwards)

This is energy projection.​

Hollow Knight: Likely Resistance to Corruption, Soul Manipulation, Mind Manipulation, Life Force Manipulation and Empathic Manipulation (Due to the Pure Vessel being an undefiled and unbound version of the Hollow Knight, it is possible it is free of its impurities, making it truly 'mindless' and 'without thought' like what it was meant to be)

Again we know basically for a fact now that all Vessels have a mind and will of their own so this isn't likely to be true and as far as we know the other dream bosses except Grey Prince Zote are all real versions of the characters that have existed at some point (maybe not Absolute Radiance, but even then I think the idea is that we're fighting her at her prime perfect self rather than the weakened half-forgotten curren state). I guess it's not impossible but I don't know if it should really be a power. For the same reason, The Knight's resistance to Telepathy has its justification altered.​

​

The Radiance: Morality Manipulation and Statistics Amplification (Those inflicted with the infection have enhanced strength and courage)

No issues with the strength bit, but the "courage" bit is just the Hunter misunderstanding what the Infection truly does. They don't really have courage because they don't have a will of their own, they're just puppets.​

The Radiance: Body Puppetry (The Infection can reanimate dead bugs by controlling them, a good example being the watcher knights)

The Watcher Knights are actually empty shells moved around by tiny infected flies, so... i guess it is puppeteering a body but not as the ability intends it.​

Additions​

This is not going to include the many, many, many additions to Hornet's profile, I'm gonna make a separate thread for that. Just a few things that retroactively apply to HK + a few tiny things I found from the first game.

• Void Creatures get Self-Sustenance (All types. Void creatures seemingly do not need to sleep or feed)
• In addition, The Knight gets Purification (The Everbloom, also known as the Delicate Flower, wards the void away from itself, protecting those wielding it from its effects even when plunging deep within it), Statistics Amplification (Lifeblood invigorates the body and renders it more resistant to injury when consumed), Resistance to Acid Manipulation [Addition] (Can withstand the Mawlurk's acid, which is corrosive enough to dissolve their prey), Resistance to Corruption (Immune to the corruptive effects of Lifeblood, being capable of consuming far more than even Hornet can inject without overdosing, suffering no adverse effects)
• Higher Beings get Immortality (Type 1. Higher beings are likely entirely immortal, given the distinction often drawn between them and the "mortal" bugs that do not share their heritage)
• Dream Warriors, False Knight, Soul Master and Broken Vessel get Resistance to Absorption (Can withstand the Knight's attempts at absorbing them with the Dream Nail until they are defeated)
  • The Knight gets Absorption for... well, duh.

 

[Galactidot]

Hello folks, before the big boy Hornet CRT I wanna clean up some things in the Hollow Knight verse right now, some have been revealed to be false in the wake of Silksong and some others simply don't hold up to scrutiny. There are also a few new things that I want to add, and new/reworked calcs for the setting.

New Calcs​

• Attack Potency
  • Hornet Crushes a Bridge - 3.26 x 10^8 Joules. Fortuitously done by Hornet at her absolute most weakened so just about anyone other than fodder should scale to this, we were already scaling early game HK bosses to Hornet and that's a lot more convincing with this new feat done when she's so weak.
  • Far Fields Explosion - 1.29 x 10^8 Joules. Early game Silksong feat.
  • Nyleth's Floor Bust - 8.34 x 10^7 Joules. Late game Silksong feat.
  • If you've played Silksong you know there's an earthquake feat that ends up somewhere in tier 7, performed by Grand Mother Silk. I originally agreed with scaling this to characters' physical ratings but over time I've been convinced there's some issues with it - regarding whether it's an outlier, whether GMS scales to it in the state she's fought in and so on. It's a grey area but I presently disagree with its use, if people want to make a thread to try and apply it they're free to, I'm not going to add a token debunk to it here because that'd sidetrack the conversation and not lead to a productive result either way, because I doubt it would be fully comprehensive.
• Lifting Strength: Hornet Crushes a Bridge - 555 tons. Same feat as the main AP one. When it comes to existing profiles scaling is a little weird here because only the Hollow Knight visibly scales to Hornet. The Radiance ought to also scale via somewhat resisting void tendrils until her death whereas Grand Mother Silk who can overpower Hornet gets dragged in immediately, I'm not sure if there's a solid argument for Nightmare King Grimm upscaling from the HK and the Knight being comparable AP/Speed-wise isn't really evidence that it scales in LS to any one of these people.
  • With that said anyone who doesn't scale to Class K should be changed to Unknown from Below Average Human. We now know bugs get superhuman LS in the setting, there's no reason to assume they're limited by their size.
• Speed: Recalculating Speed - Hypersonic+. Not a new feat but a downgrade to the existing one. The existing calculation doesn't account for the fact that the Knight's swing animation takes a few frames, and as such the results are downgraded. As a small silver lining I think it's fine to scale characters to the highest result outright rather than split the Knight's speed between different techniques like we used to. You can parry the Nailmasters' own Nail Arts and bosses can parry your own so it should all be relative to base combat speed.

TL;DR - Upgrade higher into 9-A, a Class K feat that only the Hollow Knight, the Radiance and Hornet scale to rn, a speed downgrade to Hypersonic+.

Removals​

Universal: Resistance to Soul Manipulation, Mind Manipulation and Life Force Manipulation (The SOUL of bugs is their Mind, Soul and Life Force, and thus to affect it, you must be capable of affecting all three at once, in addition all bugs are shown seemingly undaunted by having their SOUL absorbed by The Knight)

There's two notable issues with this. Firstly the "soul = mind = life" bit comes from this thread and while the evidence produced is extensive, Deonment fails to consider that... well, the soul is the mind in like 99% of depictions. Like if souls are depicted they will probably be the consciousness of the individual, that's nothing unique to Hollow Knight and not really an ability of the verse. Similarly, sure, the soul is what gives life to the body... again, that's just normal. That's what it always does. Even if there was some unique link beyond the standard conception of a soul, there is zero evidence that you actually need to affect all three to affect one (In fact, the Soul Sanctum's experiments with Soul led to some bugs having their bodies warped, which is evidence to the contrary). Besides, in Silksong it's shown that even Void creatures like the Knight have desires and personality of their own, what with the Knight choosing to save Hornet's life, meaning they've got minds despite not having souls, which pretty clearly debunks this theory. Let's be honest, though, the hints were always there.​

​

As for the second half, it's based off the Knight's ability to gain Soul while striking foes and as Silksong confirms, Void [which the Knight is composed of] does indeed seek out and consume any soul it senses, but that does not imply a resistance to the ability proper. The matter of fact is that every bug in the game, even the weakest and most animalistic, resists your attacks until you deal lethal bodily damage. Weak enemies tank a few hits, bosses can take dozens, and your ability to kill them faster is solely reliant on the increased quality of your weapon or the ability to use powerful weapon techniques - in either case it's increasing the physical damage you deal. In Silksong, normal bugs like Shakra can canonically fight off void-possessed enemies whose attacks wear away Hornet's silk (soul-based mana), but it is explicitly clarified that Hornet can only delve in the (void) Abyss thanks to her unique heritage. The logical conclusion here - as with any hax ability that is never shown to be anything other than nonlethal - is that the Soul damage done by a Vessel's attacks is just not enough to typically be deadly, whereas direct Void exposure is. There are even a few fights in Hollow Knight that don't end in the opponent's death (Dung Defender, Grimm, Hornet, Zote) and never does the loser seem to be suffering any kind of lasting effects after the fight, with Zote in particular being a completely normal bug with no special abilities and remaining... as spirited as ever afterwards. Even when the outcome of a fight is lethal enemies typically retain their souls afterwards, as seen with the Dream rematches.​

​

All Bosses (In Godhome): Abstract Existence (Type 1), Immaterial Intangibility and Incorporeality (Exists as a god in the Hall of Gods that exists in the Dream Realm, a place made of essence, which makes up dreams, thoughts, and memories)

Obviously the Godseeker's dreams are uniquely powerful and all dreams in HK have some kind of innate power that can transfer to the real world (Essence being drained in Hollow Knight and physical objects being taken from memories through a powerful spell in Silksong), but that doesn't change the fact that these would be subject to reality equalization. Anything in these dreams is equally tangible to those within it, it's just... well, not real in the proper manner, and if we don't equalize they wouldn't have an AP rating. The Radiance and Grimm keep their Abstract Existence and so do Dream Warriors, because the former are actual dream beings with dream powers and the latter are ghosts manifesting in the real world.​

Soul Master & Higher Beings: Resistance to Soul Manipulation, Mind Manipulation, Life Manipulation and Biological Manipulation (Is considered the most successful and powerful SOUL wielder that emerged from the Soul Sanctum's experiments, which warped the body and damaged the mind's of Mistakes and Follies while)

This is indeed what happened, but the point of experimentation is to reach a discovery through trial and error. Mistakes and Follies are explicitly failed experiments, whereas the Soul Master and other inhabitants of the Soul Sanctum are presumably successful ones. One would assume they underwent an improved version of the procedure, not that they tanked the exact same one.​

​

The Knight: Minor Aura (After obtaining the Kings Brand, Emilita notes that the Knight has obtained a regal aura, like its father the Pale King)

This is just having a kingly presence, not really 'actual' aura.​

Hornet: Resistance to Cold Temperatures (Unfazed by the cold winds of Kingdom's Edge during her second fight with The Knight)

I don't know where the idea of Kingdom's Edge being a particularly cold area comes from. The white stuff is ash, not snow, and it's not ever said to be cold as far as I know. Even if it was, it's actually a pretty inhabited area. Plenty of enemies run around Kingdom's Edge, and Nailmaster Oro and the inhabitants of the Colosseum of Fools both don't really seem to struggle existing here, while Cornifer and Tiso travel through it no problem. Even if it's cold, it's clearly not to an unlivable extent.​

​

Hornet: Summoning (Can summon spiky projectiles)

This is just... throwing things. If this is summoning then shooting a gun is "summoning" bullets. To clarify, Silksong confirms that Hornet's tools (including this specific one) are hand-crafted and physically carried by her, there is nothing supernatural about how they work.​

​

Hollow Knight: Immortality (Type 2. Bursting with the infection which warped their body in the process, capable of stabbing itself multiple times with no long-term ill effects)

I think the ability is fine given it doesn't immediately keel over and die, but the wording is pretty silly, obviously it's doing damage to itself and also doesn't exactly get to see "long term" anything given it gets destroyed like one minute after.​

​

Hollow Knight: Aura (Capable of creating an explosive aura around it, summoning smaller auras around itself afterwards)

This is energy projection.​

Hollow Knight: Likely Resistance to Corruption, Soul Manipulation, Mind Manipulation, Life Force Manipulation and Empathic Manipulation (Due to the Pure Vessel being an undefiled and unbound version of the Hollow Knight, it is possible it is free of its impurities, making it truly 'mindless' and 'without thought' like what it was meant to be)

Again we know basically for a fact now that all Vessels have a mind and will of their own so this isn't likely to be true and as far as we know the other dream bosses except Grey Prince Zote are all real versions of the characters that have existed at some point (maybe not Absolute Radiance, but even then I think the idea is that we're fighting her at her prime perfect self rather than the weakened half-forgotten curren state). I guess it's not impossible but I don't know if it should really be a power. For the same reason, The Knight's resistance to Telepathy has its justification altered.​

​

The Radiance: Morality Manipulation and Statistics Amplification (Those inflicted with the infection have enhanced strength and courage)

No issues with the strength bit, but the "courage" bit is just the Hunter misunderstanding what the Infection truly does. They don't really have courage because they don't have a will of their own, they're just puppets.​

The Radiance: Body Puppetry (The Infection can reanimate dead bugs by controlling them, a good example being the watcher knights)

The Watcher Knights are actually empty shells moved around by tiny infected flies, so... i guess it is puppeteering a body but not as the ability intends it.​

Additions​

This is not going to include the many, many, many additions to Hornet's profile, I'm gonna make a separate thread for that. Just a few things that retroactively apply to HK + a few tiny things I found from the first game.

• Void Creatures get Self-Sustenance (All types. Void creatures seemingly do not need to sleep or feed)
• In addition, The Knight gets Purification (The Everbloom, also known as the Delicate Flower, wards the void away from itself, protecting those wielding it from its effects even when plunging deep within it), Statistics Amplification (Lifeblood invigorates the body and renders it more resistant to injury when consumed), Resistance to Acid Manipulation [Addition] (Can withstand the Mawlurk's acid, which is corrosive enough to dissolve their prey), Resistance to Corruption (Immune to the corruptive effects of Lifeblood, being capable of consuming far more than even Hornet can inject without overdosing, suffering no adverse effects)
• Higher Beings get Immortality (Type 1. Higher beings are likely entirely immortal, given the distinction often drawn between them and the "mortal" bugs that do not share their heritage)
• Dream Warriors, False Knight, Soul Master and Broken Vessel get Resistance to Absorption (Can withstand the Knight's attempts at absorbing them with the Dream Nail until they are defeated)
  • The Knight gets Absorption for... well, duh.

I silked myself upon reading this.
Therefore, I agree.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks good to me.

 

[Galactidot]

Seeing this thread honestly makes me realize a few things:

• I really want an upgrade for the verse. I would support a GMS quake scaling thread if you made it, and I believe many others would too.

• We should have something called size equalization atp, similar to reality equalization. In my opinion, characters from verses like Cookie Run, Bug Fables, and Hollow Knight would benefit from having size equalized keys, if that makes sense. That way, we can take feats that would normally be unscalable, like the Godhome destruction feat in Hollow Knight, seriously and scale them to something.

• Sea of Sorrow will be the best hint we’d get on size scaling to date. Seeing a fish or frog answers all our questions. We can find out if their ocean is merely a lake, or an actual ocean based on what’s at the bottom, and we can maybe find out just how big everything really is in relation to the sea. Exciting stuff~

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

You can parry the Nailmasters' own Nail Arts

Doesn't this just prove that you don't need to match 1-to-1 with the speed of attacks to parry them?

And doesn’t this just make Nail Arts useless, if not outright detrimental, to use?
They have to travel more distance than regular strikes without actually being faster, which just makes them slower in comparison.

 

[Galactidot]

Doesn't this just prove that you don't need to match 1-to-1 with the speed of attacks to parry them?

And doesn’t this just make Nail Arts useless, if not outright detrimental, to use?
They have to travel more distance than regular strikes without actually being faster, which just makes them slower in comparison.

They hurt more but take longer to charge and perform and stuff, I thought that was a given...

They're not necessarily better OR worse

 

[Armorchompy]

I really want an upgrade for the verse. I would support a GMS quake scaling thread if you made it, and I believe many others would too.

I edited OP slightly because honestly I don't fully disagree with the quake scaling (as long as it's done fairly conservatively). That said I don't wanna be the one to propose it because I'm not really in favor of it either - I might end up disagreeing with a thread to add it or not, I don't know. My main issue is regarding the scaling and potential outlierdom, the feat is almost surely legit (unless they re-add dialogue stating Silk was weakened in the DLCs, I guess).

We should have something called size equalization atp, similar to reality equalization. In my opinion, characters from verses like Cookie Run, Bug Fables, and Hollow Knight would benefit from having size equalized keys, if that makes sense. That way, we can take feats that would normally be unscalable, like the Godhome destruction feat in Hollow Knight, seriously and scale them to something.

I mean you could try to calc the Godhome destruction, I'm just not sure about the specifics because I haven't researched HK1, only Silksong. It probably gets above 9-A even lowballed even if it isn't a much larger scale feat. But to be honest that sounds like a big headache to handle, don't think it'd work out.

Sea of Sorrow will be the best hint we’d get on size scaling to date. Seeing a fish or frog answers all our questions. We can find out if their ocean is merely a lake, or an actual ocean based on what’s at the bottom, and we can maybe find out just how big everything really is in relation to the sea. Exciting stuff~

Seeing what they did with crawbugs it'd probably just be fish/frog-like bugs. But I do hope something comes up, it's annoying to not know the character's sizes. The 9-A feats I've calced could easily be low 9-B or High 8-C depending on her height

High 8-C would be fun, then she'd be able to fight Spider-Man

 

[Armorchompy]

Doesn't this just prove that you don't need to match 1-to-1 with the speed of attacks to parry them?

You don't, yeah. But there is a degree of comparability that splitting the attack speed ratings would not imply. If we took the basic slashes as combat/reaction speed (which frankly is not any less suspicious than the faster ones) then the faster Nail Arts are almost x3 faster than them. An attack that fast isn't something you can consistently parry and yet it is something you can easily react to in gameplay and that bosses can consistently deflect in their parry stances.

 

[Zabazab]

This looks good.

earthquake feat

I been saying Weaver Queen Hornet key!

A better example of The Radiance's body puppetry is literally any of the Husk enemies btw.

We should have something called size equalization atp

I strongly disagree, but I'm not gonna discuss it in this thread.

 

[Galactidot]

I edited OP slightly because honestly I don't fully disagree with the quake scaling (as long as it's done fairly conservatively). That said I don't wanna be the one to propose it because I'm not really in favor of it either - I might end up disagreeing with a thread to add it or not, I don't know. My main issue is regarding the scaling and potential outlierdom, the feat is almost surely legit (unless they re-add dialogue stating Silk was weakened in the DLCs, I guess).

Nah, it probably wouldn't be an outlier. There are much stronger feats. Even Nyleth, someone who isn't a higher being, has a blatant sustaining feat for the life of an entire forest.

I mean you could try to calc the Godhome destruction, I'm just not sure about the specifics because I haven't researched HK1, only Silksong. It probably gets above 9-A even lowballed even if it isn't a much larger scale feat. But to be honest that sounds like a big headache to handle, don't think it'd work out.

Godhome is where you fight the gods of Hollow Knight, taking place in a collection of dream dimensions. In the ending, The Knight turns into the Lord of Shades, and consumes the entire dimension, leaking into the real world (the save file thing in Silksong act 3 is honestly consistent with Void's immersion-bypass abilities in that regard too now that I think about it)

In other words, if we had size, this feat could cap out at universal for some of the higher beings.

Seeing what they did with crawbugs it'd probably just be fish/frog-like bugs. But I do hope something comes up, it's annoying to not know the character's sizes. The 9-A feats I've calced could easily be low 9-B or High 8-C depending on her height

High 8-C would be fun, then she'd be able to fight Spider-Man

True. But I have a feeling that Team Cherry won't be able to resist referencing 20,000 leagues under the sea.

Also, based on the way the ocean works, we could also come across stuff like isopods and nautilus, along with plants, which would reveal far more than you'd think.

 

[Armorchompy]

I been saying Weaver Queen Hornet key!

Yeah I honestly don't know how to handle that lol. I guess I'll scale her to it and slap a placeholder "we don't know what to do with this" note on the rating

A better example of The Radiance's body puppetry is literally any of the Husk enemies btw.

Sure

Nah, it probably wouldn't be an outlier. There are much stronger feats. Even Nyleth, someone who isn't a higher being, has a blatant sustaining feat for the life of an entire forest.

I'm not going to get into a debate over the quake feat rn but the Nyleth isn't really anything AP-wise, it's just empowering nature to grow healthier and stronger. Not only can't it really be quantified but it also just isn't a valid stabilization feat, it's really slow and overtime with (probably) no UES.

Godhome is where you fight the gods of Hollow Knight, taking place in a collection of dream dimensions. In the ending, The Knight turns into the Lord of Shades, and consumes the entire dimension, leaking into the real world (the save file thing in Silksong act 3 is honestly consistent with Void's immersion-bypass abilities in that regard too now that I think about it)

In other words, if we had size, this feat could cap out at universal for some of the higher beings.

If it's universal then it's universal, the characters being 30 or 180 cm tall wouldn't change things. I've admittedly heard people be pretty hesitant about it but I'd need to go back and check the lore to develop an opinion, before Silksong I liked HK1 but wasn't too obsessed with it so I don't have the full picture.

True. But I have a feeling that Team Cherry won't be able to resist referencing 20,000 leagues under the sea.

I suppose we'll see.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

They hurt more but take longer to charge and perform and stuff, I thought that was a given...

They're not necessarily better OR worse

They take a while to charge but when they come out, they’re essentially just a stronger regular slash with more range (Or a slash with a multi-hit if we're talking about Cyclone Slash). Honestly them even needing a charge-up when they end up providing nothing for the Knight (Cyclone Slash provides no power boost), since at = speed it just ends up being equivalent to if some rando grabbed a sword and started spinning with it, and that is supposed to be a super skilled super move? What?

You don't, yeah. But there is a degree of comparability that splitting the attack speed ratings would not imply. If we took the basic slashes as combat/reaction speed (which frankly is not any less suspicious than the faster ones) then the faster Nail Arts are almost x3 faster than them. An attack that fast isn't something you can consistently parry and yet it is something you can easily react to in gameplay and that bosses can consistently deflect in their parry stances.

The fact that bosses have to preemptively enter a defensive stance already, or in the Knight’s case literally attacking before the Nail Art even comes out, cuts down how much actual movement they need to parry the attack in the first place. Add in that all the Nail Arts are huge telegraphed swings and as such will leave more time for the bosses to react to and well, ya know.

Like I can kinda see with Great Slash and such, but Cyclone Slash literally has the Knight turn back and spin their nail in place like a helicopter, the movement a boss has to make to parry that is trivial compared to the massive half-circle the Knight has to go through just to land the hit.

 

[Galactidot]

I'm not going to get into a debate over the quake feat rn but the Nyleth isn't really anything AP-wise, it's just empowering nature to grow healthier and stronger. Not only can't it really be quantified but it also just isn't a valid stabilization feat, it's really slow and overtime with (probably) no UES.

Yeah, I know. I'm essentially just saying that GMS' forces were able to neg-diff 3 of these guys, so it's not outta the question for her.

If it's universal then it's universal, the characters being 30 or 180 cm tall wouldn't change things. I've admittedly heard people be pretty hesitant about it but I'd need to go back and check the lore to develop an opinion, before Silksong I liked HK1 but wasn't too obsessed with it so I don't have the full picture.

Yeah I don't get it either, the whole thing is the opposition claiming it doesn't matter by using King's Palace to take the dream realm's sizes into question as an example of a large dream realm. I agree with what you said first line, lol. I don't care that much if a dimension is room-sized, if it exists independently, it counts.

I suppose we'll sea

of sorrow.

 

[Armorchompy]

They take a while to charge but when they come out, they’re essentially just a stronger regular slash with more range (Or a slash with a multi-hit if we're talking about Cyclone Slash). Honestly them even needing a charge-up when they end up providing nothing for the Knight (Cyclone Slash provides no power boost), since at = speed it just ends up being equivalent to if some rando grabbed a sword and started spinning with it, and that is supposed to be a super skilled super move? What?

I think you're nitpicking a bit. They're stronger than normal moves, that's obviously just true, and presumably faster too, it's just not a huge gap that characters' overall combat speed doesn't downscale from. Realistically even the normal swings would be faster than the combatants' reactions since that's how this type of thing works IRL, we just don't have that level of granularity. Separate attack speed ratings are typically left for something that's well and beyond the normal combat speed.

The fact that bosses have to preemptively enter a defensive stance already, or in the Knight’s case literally attacking before the Nail Art even comes out, cuts down how much actual movement they need to parry the attack in the first place. Add in that all the Nail Arts are huge telegraphed swings and as such will leave more time for the bosses to react to and well, ya know.

In the former case, the defensive stance is... well firstly it's to make things fairer for the player but also it's just to show that they're bothering to parry at all, throughout most of the fight bosses just eat hits and can't parry even normal strikes. If the argument is "they need special prep to block these faster attacks" then that doesn't work because they need the exact same to parry the normal strikes. And as for attacking before it comes out... not really. Your attacks only take a few frames to come out, if you're timing things right it's roughly 1 to 1 with the enemy attack.

Like I can kinda see with Great Slash and such, but Cyclone Slash literally has the Knight turn back and spin their nail in place like a helicopter, the movement a boss has to make to parry that is trivial compared to the massive half-circle the Knight has to go through just to land the hit.

Cyclone Slash doesn't really make much sense no matter how you think about it. Realistically it could be calced to be dozens of times faster than the normal attacks since there's a bunch of afterimages and that's a mess for a variety of reasons. There's clearly some abstraction going on here but I don't think the way you resolve that abstraction is all this separation.

 

[Dalesean027]

These changes and additions seem fine

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Void Creatures get Self-Sustenance (All types. Void creatures seemingly do not need to sleep or feed)

Tbf, is there any confirmation if they don't need to breath?

Great work. I will have a better read later on

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I think you're nitpicking a bit. They're stronger than normal moves, that's obviously just true, and presumably faster too, it's just not a huge gap that characters' overall combat speed doesn't downscale from. Realistically even the normal swings would be faster than the combatants' reactions since that's how this type of thing works IRL, we just don't have that level of granularity. Separate attack speed ratings are typically left for something that's well and beyond the normal combat speed.

But why downscale at all when we already have a value we can confidently scale them to? The difference isn’t even that massive to begin with. You end up with a gap that’s basically comparable to Dash Slash when you stack both the range-extending Charms and Quick Slash, and in real life humans react to stuff that surpasses x3 what we list as their speed (The 7 m/s), like always?

In the former case, the defensive stance is... well firstly it's to make things fairer for the player but also it's just to show that they're bothering to parry at all, throughout most of the fight bosses just eat hits and can't parry even normal strikes. If the argument is "they need special prep to block these faster attacks" then that doesn't work because they need the exact same to parry the normal strikes. And as for attacking before it comes out... not really. Your attacks only take a few frames to come out, if you're timing things right it's roughly 1 to 1 with the enemy attack.

I mean, we're not scaling bosses to the Knight cause they can parry their attacks, otherwise bosses that don't parry (a.k.a. 90% of the game) won't scale to anything? We take the nail swing as the Knight's combat speed, flawed but ehh works well enough, and scale the bosses cause they can prove to be challenge for the Knight.
Regular swings also getting parried doesn't prove anything, like duh, of course something moving at moderate speeds is going to be easy to parry when you’re already in a defensive stance, and that same stance is also going to help against faster swings.

And like yeah, all the attacks come out at 8 frames or so, but the swings themselves aren’t comparable at all.
Regular swings only travel about a half-circle, while Dash Slash starts from a significant distance behind the Knight before coming forward.

Cyclone Slash doesn't really make much sense no matter how you think about it. Realistically it could be calced to be dozens of times faster than the normal attacks since there's a bunch of afterimages and that's a mess for a variety of reasons. There's clearly some abstraction going on here but I don't think the way you resolve that abstraction is all this separation.

So why are we scaling everything to the one move that’s clearly the most problematic and could be dozens of times faster? The speed differences between regular slashes and things like Great Slash or Dash Slash aren’t that extreme. Cyclone Slash is the outlier here.

Like Cyclone Slash provides NOTHING besides speed. It doesn’t boost the Knight’s individual swing power at all, it purely increases speed so the Knight can potentially hit the boss three to six times. It being in its own tier of speed seems consistent, no?

 

[Deonment]

Agree with the rest outright, just have some comments to make on the rest

There's two notable issues with this. Firstly the "soul = mind = life" bit comes from this thread and while the evidence produced is extensive, Deonment fails to consider that... well, the soul is the mind in like 99% of depictions. Like if souls are depicted they will probably be the consciousness of the individual, that's nothing unique to Hollow Knight and not really an ability of the verse. Similarly, sure, the soul is what gives life to the body... again, that's just normal. That's what it always does. Even if there was some unique link beyond the standard conception of a soul, there is zero evidence that you actually need to affect all three to affect one (In fact, the Soul Sanctum's experiments with Soul led to some bugs having their bodies warped, which is evidence to the contrary). Besides, in Silksong it's shown that even Void creatures like the Knight have desires and personality of their own, what with the Knight choosing to save Hornet's life, meaning they've got minds despite not having souls, which pretty clearly debunks this theory. Let's be honest, though, the hints were always there.

Eh, fair (though there are things which indicate that from both skong and hk, and that void beings can either gain or be infused with soul after the fact, but yeah)

As for the second half, it's based off the Knight's ability to gain Soul while striking foes and as Silksong confirms, Void [which the Knight is composed of] does indeed seek out and consume any soul it senses, but that does not imply a resistance to the ability proper. The matter of fact is that every bug in the game, even the weakest and most animalistic, resists your attacks until you deal lethal bodily damage. Weak enemies tank a few hits, bosses can take dozens, and your ability to kill them faster is solely reliant on the increased quality of your weapon or the ability to use powerful weapon techniques - in either case it's increasing the physical damage you deal. In Silksong, normal bugs like Shakra can canonically fight off void-possessed enemies whose attacks wear away Hornet's silk (soul-based mana), but it is explicitly clarified that Hornet can only delve in the (void) Abyss thanks to her unique heritage. The logical conclusion here - as with any hax ability that is never shown to be anything other than nonlethal - is that the Soul damage done by a Vessel's attacks is just not enough to typically be deadly, whereas direct Void exposure is. There are even a few fights in Hollow Knight that don't end in the opponent's death (Dung Defender, Grimm, Hornet, Zote) and never does the loser seem to be suffering any kind of lasting effects after the fight, with Zote in particular being a completely normal bug with no special abilities and remaining... as spirited as ever afterwards. Even when the outcome of a fight is lethal enemies typically retain their souls afterwards, as seen with the Dream rematches.

I mean, sure, though to be specific, this aspect of it was always meant as a limited resistance to show the fact that the bugs can still function and whatnot with the fact that they can seemingly function normally even with their soul getting absorbed every not and again, not that they somehow resist the knight stealing their soul due to the knight (some of their) stealing their soul

This is indeed what happened, but the point of experimentation is to reach a discovery through trial and error. Mistakes and Follies are explicitly failed experiments, whereas the Soul Master and other inhabitants of the Soul Sanctum are presumably successful ones. One would assume they underwent an improved version of the procedure, not that they tanked the exact same one.

I mean, fair, though the rest of them (beyond the Soul Master) do still show "negative" effects from the process, the soul twister specifically stating that their mind "swells", which doesn't exactly line up with the effects of the infection as we know it (in addition to the fact that it was likely those same experiments that left them vulnerable to the infection)
Though I think higher beings should still keep the resistance, since we know that they all have Pure Focuses out of the gate, which was the whole point of the experiment, and the three we've seen using Focus (or something adjacent in the case of binding) are fine, no whispers or mind fuckery to be seen

Obviously the Godseeker's dreams are uniquely powerful and all dreams in HK have some kind of innate power that can transfer to the real world (Essence being drained in Hollow Knight and physical objects being taken from memories through a powerful spell in Silksong), but that doesn't change the fact that these would be subject to reality equalization. Anything in these dreams is equally tangible to those within it, it's just... well, not real in the proper manner, and if we don't equalize they wouldn't have an AP rating. The Radiance and Grimm keep their Abstract Existence and so do Dream Warriors, because the former are actual dream beings with dream powers and the latter are ghosts manifesting in the real world.

Eh, fair, though I would say that the physiology in this case woudl be more due to the fact that they would be made out of essence than anything, but aight

Again we know basically for a fact now that all Vessels have a mind and will of their own so this isn't likely to be true and as far as we know the other dream bosses except Grey Prince Zote are all real versions of the characters that have existed at some point (maybe not Absolute Radiance, but even then I think the idea is that we're fighting her at her prime perfect self rather than the weakened half-forgotten curren state). I guess it's not impossible but I don't know if it should really be a power. For the same reason, The Knight's resistance to Telepathy has its justification altered.

Even beyond that, we hear from the Pale Lady herself that the reason why the hollow knight failed was due to "An idea instilled", and given that we have an idea of what said idea is (cough the path of pain cutscene cough), and the Pure Vessel is very likely the vessel before it got sealed up, it likely still has the same idea its head making it not fully hollow anyways

The Watcher Knights are actually empty shells moved around by tiny infected flies, so... i guess it is puppeteering a body but not as the ability intends it.

Link doesn't work, but yeah

Higher Beings get Immortality (Type 1. Higher beings are likely entirely immortal, given the distinction often drawn between them and the "mortal" bugs that do not share their heritage)

Beyond that, we also have the goal of the Soul Master (and likely the whole soul sanctum as a result) being to become immortal, which, considering what they aim to do (attain a pure focus), and the fact that Higher Beings have already attained it, could be used as supporting evidence

 

[Zabazab]

and the Pure Vessel is very likely the vessel before it got sealed up, it likely still has the same idea its head making it not fully hollow anyways

Additionally, not to say cut content is the end-all be-all, but its cut Dream Nail dialogue did say "Do not think...", "Do not speak...", "Do not hope...", "Do not...", "..."

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Agree here

 

[RitsuØ1]

Changes look fine. I should really finish Silksong…

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean, sure, though to be specific, this aspect of it was always meant as a limited resistance to show the fact that the bugs can still function and whatnot with the fact that they can seemingly function normally even with their soul getting absorbed every not and again, not that they somehow resist the knight stealing their soul due to the knight (some of their) stealing their soul

I get that but it still is just smarter to assume the soul sapping is never or very rarely lethal, rather than assume it would be out of verse and everyone just resists it.

Though I think higher beings should still keep the resistance, since we know that they all have Pure Focuses out of the gate, which was the whole point of the experiment, and the three we've seen using Focus (or something adjacent in the case of binding) are fine, no whispers or mind fuckery to be seen

Could I ask for some scans for this? Seems alright but I'd need stuff to put on the profiles (as well as to double check).

Beyond that, we also have the goal of the Soul Master (and likely the whole soul sanctum as a result) being to become immortal, which, considering what they aim to do (attain a pure focus), and the fact that Higher Beings have already attained it, could be used as supporting evidence

And this too.

 

[Deonment]

Could I ask for some scans for this? Seems alright but I'd need stuff to put on the profiles (as well as to double check).

Have the quotes and where they are from

Record Aba
The mind still limits us so.
How to break past its constraints?
To attain a pure focus, is it even possible?
-Soul Sanctum Lore Tablet (Unfortunately Can't find an exact video of this off the top of my head, and my copy of HK isn't on PC so I can't get a picture of this either)

Higher beings, these words are for you alone.
Your great strength marks you amongst us. Focus your soul and you shall achieve feats of which others can only dream.
-King's Pass Lore Tablet

And Here is the Pure Vessel Focusing in its fight, The Knight can Focus, and Hornet can Bind (which while not directly Focusing, is Focusing adjacent)

 

[AyOgUyS]

• We should have something called size equalization atp, similar to reality equalization. In my opinion, characters from verses like Cookie Run, Bug Fables, and Hollow Knight would benefit from having size equalized keys, if that makes sense. That way, we can take feats that would normally be unscalable, like the Godhome destruction feat in Hollow Knight, seriously and scale them to something.

No. I already disagree with Reality Equalization even being a thing. "Size Equalization" would just be buffing them for no reason. I still do think HK bugs are bigger than IRL bugs tho

This CRT is good tho I agree with everything

 

[Armorchompy]

Have the quotes and where they are from

And Here is the Pure Vessel Focusing in its fight, The Knight can Focus, and Hornet can Bind (which while not directly Focusing, is Focusing adjacent)

So the idea is "Soul Sanctum people wanted to achieve focus so they could do their magic stuff, but were limited by their minds not being capable of handling it, whereas higher beings don't have that problem"? Makes enough sense but I think that'd be resistance to corruption or something rather than soul manip.

Anyways we have the agreements but I'll keep the thread open for a few days just in case.

 

[Deonment]

So the idea is "Soul Sanctum people wanted to achieve focus so they could do their magic stuff, but were limited by their minds not being capable of handling it, whereas higher beings don't have that problem"? Makes enough sense but I think that'd be resistance to corruption or something rather than soul manip.

Anyways we have the agreements but I'll keep the thread open for a few days just in case.

shrug
It would be whatever you define the side-effects of the experiments as (it was defined as mind (and thus used to be soul and life force) and bio manip)
but yeah

 

[MysticBrawler]

Bump

 

[Armorchompy]

boomp

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

If you apply the Quick Slash amp to the Cyclone Slash speed you get High Hypersonic I think

 

[MysticBrawler]

Bump

 

[Armorchompy]

Alrighty, I think I'll apply this soon enough, as well as prepare the Hornet CRT

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm in the process of applying. Does anyone know if I should count Grimm as a higher being? IIRC that's just speculation.

If you apply the Quick Slash amp to the Cyclone Slash speed you get High Hypersonic I think

Sorry, I missed this. Do you know if it actually changes the gameplay speed of it?

 

[Armorchompy]

It's gotten pretty late so I'll stop, if anyone wants to help with the updating (change Below Average Human LS to Unknown, speed to Hypersonic+, remove soul/mind etc stuff from non-higher beings) I'd appreciate it otherwise I'll resume

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Do you know if it actually changes the gameplay speed of it?

Doesn't seem like it? The Cyclone Slashes with Quick Slash equipped all seem to be within the 5-6 frames and the ones without were a mess (Two were 8 frames, one was 1 frame, and the other was 5) was and they both end at the same time from what I've seen, but regular slashes and Quick Slashes are also apparently both 6 frames when Quick Slash is supposed to reduce 0.07 seconds from the attack animation according to the wiki. I'm probably just incompetent.

 

[Deonment]

I'm in the process of applying. Does anyone know if I should count Grimm as a higher being? IIRC that's just speculation.

Uh, kinda
Even normal Grimm bows to the Godseekers, and has pantheon-specific dialogue in this

How grand a stage!
A charming ritual... a pleasure!
An honour, Seeker, to attend your call!

Which shows a degree of awareness of (the) dreams that we've only seen in higher beings and their children, in addition to the whole travelling through the realm of nightmares and the nature of the ritual meaning each Grimm and Grimmchild (eventually for the latter) are either incarnations or the flesh and blood self of the Nightmare King

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Broken Vessel don't count as a Higher Being, right? They're a reanimated corpse?

 

[MysticBrawler]

I'm in the process of applying. Does anyone know if I should count Grimm as a higher being? IIRC that's just speculation.

Sorry, I missed this. Do you know if it actually changes the gameplay speed of it?

According to Seer's dialogue it's implied that the Nightmare's Heart is a higher being comparable to The Radiance. With that said, since Grimm is The Nightmare Heart's avatar I think he should count.

 

[Zabazab]

I'm in the process of applying. Does anyone know if I should count Grimm as a higher being? IIRC that's just speculation.

He's the physical vessel of the Nightmare's Heart, which is a higher being.

 

[Cybernat2000]

Shouldn't Savage Beastfly's feat of shaking the Chapel of the Beast be ranked higher?

 

[Armorchompy]

Broken Vessel don't count as a Higher Being, right? They're a reanimated corpse?

Good question, actually. Yeah I suppose the Infection is what's actually steering the wheel. Also btw thank you for editing the profiles, I appreciate it

Regarding Grimm I'll add the higher being stuff as a likely. Could be being spawn of a higher being gives him the higher being status like it does for Hornet, could be it doesn't.