HGR Issue & Inquiry

[Ss3micah]

Yeah I dont know if anyone has noticed before but I'm gonna point out the seemingly Invisible Elephant in the Regeneration Room

According to the HGR section of the Regeneration page, HGR is the ability to regenerate after the erasure of body, mind, and soul, along with at least one even more fundamental aspect of a character's existence, such as their place in the narrative, their entire history, or the underlying information (Type 2) or concept(s) (Type 1 or 2, but only very rarely 3, if there is strong evidence of being similar to the former types in terms of how hard it is to regenerate from them) needed for them to exist.

So...
What does this have to do with anything?

Well, I have recently learned that fundamental aspect hax (Concept, Info and Plot) are INCOMPARABLE to each other and as such this would mean a Character that can interact with or affect Concepts cannot do the same with Information or Plot and Vice Versa. Likewise a character that can Resist Concept Hax cannot resist Information nor Plot Hax and Vice Versa.

So whats the deal with Regen? I have seen in MANY matchups where characters that have HGR for Regenerating from ONE fundamental aspect can now for reason or another Regen from every possible Abstract.

For Example: People know that Tensei Slime's Demon Lord Key Rimuru can Regen from Information Destruction/Erasure and somehow I see people use this reasoning to ALSO claim he can regen from Concept/Plot Erasure neither of which Demon Lord Key Rimuru has personal feats of doing. Another Example I can through out would be Kriemhild Gretchen who has Conceptually Erased by Ult. Madoka and for some reason people interpret that to mean she can likewise do the same against Info and Plot Erasure cause for reasons that escape my grasp.

So what I wanna know is how is HGR supposed to Balanced here? Should characters only be to regen from fundamental aspects they have feats of Regenerating from or can a character Regen from all forms and applications of Fundamental Aspects by default once they can Regen from one in Canon?

 

[Orioreeem]

I once asked a similar question. Got multiple answers, from high godly being able to come back from any of these to narativ erasure being the most superior erasure and character that can regenerate from concept erasure wouldn't be able to do so from plot erasure.

 

[First_Witch]

HGR is basically regenerating from complete nonexistance. It implies that you regenerate even though logical speaking, there is nothing to regenerate from. The reason why so many forms of abstractions are listed, even though their are, as you said, imcompareable, is because so many verses treat their abstraction level differently. Some verses dont follow the concept of overarching plot for example, while others dont follow any forms of concepts. Other verses dont follow the same temporal structure.

All 3 are valid though. In a series in which concepts are the highest form of abstraction, getting ones concept erased would qualify for HGR. In an series where concepts are only type 4, getting deleted from the/all timelines would qualify for HGR. In a series where plot and messing with it is a integral part, getting erased from the narrative would qualify for HGR. It all boils down to "Does your character regenerate even though every aspect of their existance is gone and as such should not be able to regenerate" then thats HGR.

And a word to this nonsensical notion that some form of abstractions are inherently higher than other. What matters a feats. For examples, Narratives tend to be higher on the abstraction level compared to Concepts because verses treats them as such, not because they are inherently that way. Same goes for information, same goes for temporal existances. It all depends on a verses metaphysical structure.

 

[Orioreeem]

And a word to this nonsensical notion that some form of abstractions are inherently higher than other. What matters a feats. For examples, Narratives tend to be higher on the abstraction level compared to Concepts because verses treats them as such, not because they are inherently that way. Same goes for information, same goes for temporal existances. It all depends on a verses metaphysical structure.

So if in one verse plot is the thing that is the greatest abstraction and that verse doesn't deal woth concepts, it would be the same level of abstraction as the verse that deals with concepts but not plot?
If one verse deals with plot and another shows that concepts would be above plot that would mean that in a match between those two verses concepts would be more abstract?

 

[Ss3micah]

HGR is basically regenerating from complete nonexistance. It implies that you regenerate even though logical speaking, there is nothing to regenerate from. The reason why so many forms of abstractions are listed, even though their are, as you said, imcompareable, is because so many verses treat their abstraction level differently. Some verses dont follow the concept of overarching plot for example, while others dont follow any forms of concepts. Other verses dont follow the same temporal structure.

All 3 are valid though. In a series in which concepts are the highest form of abstraction, getting ones concept erased would qualify for HGR. In an series where concepts are only type 4, getting deleted from the/all timelines would qualify for HGR. In a series where plot and messing with it is a integral part, getting erased from the narrative would qualify for HGR. It all boils down to "Does your character regenerate even though every aspect of their existance is gone and as such should not be able to regenerate" then thats HGR.

Alrighty...
So just to hammer the final nail in the coffin

What your essentially saying is that Characters such as Kriemhild Gretchen who can Regen from Concept Erasure would also be able to Regen from Info and Plot Erasure even though she lacks feats of actually doing so in her own verse?

 

[First_Witch]

So if in one verse plot is the thing that is the greatest abstraction and that verse doesn't deal woth concepts, it would be the same level of abstraction as the verse that deals with concepts but not plot?
If one verse deals with plot and another shows that concepts would be above plot that would mean that in a match between those two verses concepts would be more abstract?

Correct. Although when it comes to concepts, its a bit more tricky as concepts themselve have varying degrees of abstraction within them. If you were to ask me if Plot above Type 2 Cm is more abstract than Type 1 Cm I woudnt be able to answer that

 

[First_Witch]

Alrighty...
So just to hammer the final nail in the coffin

What your essentially saying is that Characters such as Kriemhild Gretchen who can Regen from Concept Erasure would also be able to Regen from Info and Plot Erasure even though she lacks feats of actually doing so in her own verse?

It depends on the feat of said erasure and the feat of said regeneration. My Answer would be no IF said Plot/Information Erasure is treated as a higher plane of abstractions than Concepts. Or wether or not Puellas Concepts are a higher Abstraction than whatever you are comparing it to.

There simply no blanket statements possible. It all depends on the verses Metaphysics. Which is why HGR's defintion is so broad.

 

[Orioreeem]

Correct. Although when it comes to concepts, its a bit more tricky as concepts themselve have varying degrees of abstraction within them. If you were to ask me if Plot above Type 2 Cm is more abstract than Type 1 Cm I woudnt be able to answer that

What if there is a verse specific thing in one verse that is more abstract then concepts(that verse doesn't deal with plot)? How would that compare to a verse that has plot as higher level of abstraction then concepts and a verse in which plot is the highest level of abstraction without dealing with concepts?

 

[Ss3micah]

My Answer would be no IF said Plot/Information Erasure is treated as a higher plane of abstractions than Concepts.

I see
So then if the Plot/Information Erasure in Question is lets say the same level of Abstraction as Concepts in Puella Magi then she would be to Regen from the Erasure?

 

[First_Witch]

What if there is a verse specific thing in one verse that is more abstract then concepts(that verse doesn't deal with plot)? How would that compare to a verse that has plot as higher level of abstraction then concepts and a verse in which plot is the highest level of abstraction without dealing with concepts?

Then I would argue that the Verse specific thing is higher than the narrative of verse b

 

[First_Witch]

I see
So then if the Plot/Information Erasure in Question is lets say the same level of Abstraction as Concepts in Puella Magi then she would be to Regen from the Erasure?

If said erasure is truly compareble to said regeneration then yes. Although that would be debateble depending on your stance on feats. Logical speaking absolutly though

 

[Orioreeem]

Then I would argue that the Verse specific thing is higher than the narrative of verse b

If a verse shows that concepts and plot are equals, and the other verse has plot as higher abstraction then concepts, verse B would be higher then?
I guess verse could also make certain concepts lower and higher level of abstraction then plot in verse right?

 

[First_Witch]

If a verse shows that concepts and plot are equals, and the other verse has plot as higher abstraction then concepts, verse B would be higher then?
I guess verse could also make certain concepts lower and higher level of abstraction then plot in verse right?

They can do anything honestly, as long as it makes sense. They could make timeline the most fundamental thing in the verse, above plot, above concept, above information. Fiction is that whacky.

The most important lesson here is to not take terms at face value and apply them to all verses indiscrimatly. Marvels plot is not SCP plot (Metaphysical speaking, of course) And Tensuras Concepts are not, Idk, Uminekos concepts? Analyze the verses Metaphysics accordingly and compare them without preconceived motions of what something has to be or not.

 

[Orioreeem]

Thank you for your time. This should be closed if no one has any more questions.

 

[Ss3micah]

If said erasure is truly compareble to said regeneration then yes. Although that would be debateble depending on your stance on feats. Logical speaking absolutly though

Yeah thats pretty much where the issue im having comes in...
Because given that fundamental aspect hax aren't comparable and Puella Magi doesnt have any Concepts > Information or Concepts > Plot Statements. In what context is it Logical to state that Kriemhild Gretchen would be able to come back from Information and Plot Erasure (when she herself has no feats of doing so)

 

[First_Witch]

Yeah thats pretty much where the issue im having comes in...
Because given that fundamental aspect hax aren't comparable and Puella Magi doesnt have any Concepts > Information or Concepts > Plot Statements. In what context is it Logical to state that Kriemhild Gretchen would be able to come back from Information and Plot Erasure (when she herself has no feats of doing so)

With compareability, i was talking about the potency and feats behind them.

There is a tons of nitty griddy details that can sway the whole affair in one or the other direction, which is why I don't argue with specific cases in the first place.

All those things you named have 1 thing in common, if we assume their complete definition: All 3 things denounces a metaphysical framework which reality in lodged. Be it the higher narrative, be it Platos higher realm of concepts or be it the timeline onto which the universe is imbedded on. None are inherently superior to the other.

Now that I think about it, this might be a ruling question, rather than a logic question. I don't follow the logic string of "If it didn't happend, it can't happen", while others might. I dont believe any approach is wrong, so you might want to check with actual authority on this matter.

 

[Ss3micah]

With compareability, i was talking about the potency and feats behind them.

There is a tons of nitty griddy details that can sway the whole affair in one or the other direction, which is why I don't argue with specific cases in the first place.

All those things you named have 1 thing in common, if we assume their complete definition: All 3 things denounces a metaphysical framework which reality in lodged. Be it the higher narrative, be it Platos higher realm of concepts or be it the timeline onto which the universe is imbedded on. None are inherently superior to the other.

Now that I think about it, this might be a ruling question, rather than a logic question. I don't follow the logic string of "If it didn't happend, it can't happen", while others might. I dont believe any approach is wrong, so you might want to check with actual authority on this matter.

Alrighty then
Thank you for your comments and your time

 

[Ss3micah]

I'm bumping this for interest sake
I wanna see if anyone else has any other opinions and input

 

[DontTalkDT]

You can regenerate from the stuff you demonstrated and not stuff you didn't.

 

[Ss3micah]

You can regenerate from the stuff you demonstrated and not stuff you didn't.

So basically...
Characters who can regen from Concept Erasure would not be able to regen from Information and/or Plot Erasure and Vice Versa?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Depends on whether their verse gives additional context.
E.g. in Kawakami-verse we know that the hierarchy of abstraction is information ≤ plot < concepts. So if someone there had High-Godly from concept erasure they would survive the others as well.
But if there is no such information then it is indeed possible that a concept regenerator doesn't regenerate plot.

 

[Ss3micah]

Depends on whether their verse gives additional context.
E.g. in Kawakami-verse we know that the hierarchy of abstraction is information ≤ plot < concepts. So if someone there had High-Godly from concept erasure they would survive the others as well.
But if there is no such information then it is indeed possible that a concept regenerator doesn't regenerate plot.

Yeah
I was talking about verses that specifically lack such context hence why used examples like Kriemhild Gretchen who can regen from concept erasure and Puella Magi lacks any sort of Concept > Plot or Concept > Information

So if Kriemhild Gretchen was Info Erased or Plot Erased would she regen or not
And given your answer, I'm guessing not

 

[DontTalkDT]

yeah, probably

 

[Ss3micah]

yeah, probably

Alright then
So I guess the idea of Characters with HGR being able to regen from absolutely anything (including fundament aspects they have not shown to be able to regen from) was just a popular misconception that people were pushing for whatever reason...
Heh....
Maybe I'll do a Minor Content Revision or Staff Discussion to clear that up since First_Witch who we can see was commenting prior is of the opposite opinion

 

[Ss3micah]

yeah, probably

All those things you named have 1 thing in common, if we assume their complete definition: All 3 things denounces a metaphysical framework which reality in lodged. Be it the higher narrative, be it Platos higher realm of concepts or be it the timeline onto which the universe is imbedded on. None are inherently superior to the other.

Now that I think about it, this might be a ruling question, rather than a logic question. I don't follow the logic string of "If it didn't happend, it can't happen", while others might. I dont believe any approach is wrong, so you might want to check with actual authority on this matter.

A proper CTR or staff discussion may be needed to clear up these misconceptions and set the standard straight