Hero of Kvatch hax addition

[Shazam121]

Eh? You've confused me.

You said Vehk didn't have CHIM at the time of Morrowind, but ESO takes place before Morrowind and in ESO he (probably) had it according to Fa-Nuit-Hen.

Do you think he lost it in that time?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yes, he was depowered by centuries and was not using CHIM at all. CHIM isn't an instantaneous "I have it, and now keep it forever at all times" state. It's something you have to tap into, and it's dangeours.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

I don't think Vivec had CHIM when he was shown to be on the level of Daedric Princes.

 

[Shazam121]

Yeah, that's a popular theory. But I don't think it's anything more than a fan theory, or has it been referenced somewhere?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It's self-evident, and proven.

 

[Shazam121]

It's self-evident, and proven.

You haven't said how? Source for it?

 

[The_Mysterious_Stranger_-_Delta-]

I don't recall Vivec's divinity ever being connected to the concept of CHIM, it was a concept that divine entities could not truly comprehend or utilize if I recall correctly. The lessons seem to indicate that he had learned it when he was still mortal, and had then taught the concept to Nerevar before his death. Vivec's degrading power from 2E 882 till 3E 427 was due to his long separation from the HoL after Dagoth Ur ambushed him and the rest of the Tribunal. Regardless, it matters little as only avatars or aspects of the Princes have ever been defeated on Mundus.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

My main concern isn't the Nerevarine, really, it's the Dovahkin. It's been too long since I last played Morrowind.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

Vivec's divinity was achieved through the Prolix Tower, he was a God because of that, and achieved CHIM afterward.

 

[The_Mysterious_Stranger_-_Delta-]

I could have sworn that he began to introduce the concept of CHIM to Nerevar before his death, which happened before he became a GoD by tapping into the Heart of Lorkhan. I need to read the lessons again. Regardless, the Dragonborn never battled a Prince.

 

[Shazam121]

I don't recall Vivec's divinity ever being connected to the concept of CHIM, it was a concept that divine entities could not truly comprehend or utilize if I recall correctly. The lessons seem to indicate that he had learned it when he was still mortal, and had then taught the concept to Nerevar before his death. Vivec's degrading power from 2E 882 till 3E 427 was due to his long separation from the HoL after Dagoth Ur ambushed him and the rest of the Tribunal. Regardless, it matters little as only avatars or aspects of the Princes have ever been defeated on Mundus.

Some people think the et'Ada can't achieve CHIM as they are by their nature limitless and one needs limits to truly grasp CHIM. But that's not an immutable fact by any means; remember Lorkhan was the first to realize the nature of existence in the myths, why he 'failed' is unknown.

We should also remember that most of the information we have about the world of TES comes from mortal sources so they are going to be inherently biased and limited. Of course, mortals think they are special, just as plenty of humans do.

You are probably right about the Princes. There may have been one intrusion by Dagon (before TES4) when there was no Dragon Emperor, but my knowledge on this case is limited.

Edit: Mind you, Divayth Fyr thinks he might be able to take on a Prince in their own realm... make of that what you will.

 

[The_Mysterious_Stranger_-_Delta-]

Yeah, that was what I generally believed, but I had forgotten about it's discovery by Lorkhan.

You are not wrong, there was an interview between a mortal and Haskill in which they make mention of many of the fabrications created my mortals in written texts.

Yeah, Dagon was banished by the Hero of Battlespire via equipment, Amalexia and Sotha Sil had banished Dagon as well, the Nerevarine battled Hircine on Solsthiem, and like you said the Avatar of Akatosh battled Dagon while he was still making a transition into the mortal plane.

Did he state that Shazam? I've been playing Morrowind again, but I haven't encountered him yet. Does he state that in TES 3 or ESO assuming he is encountered in that expansion?

 

[Shazam121]

Did he state that Shazam? I've been playing Morrowind again, but I haven't encountered him yet. Does he state that in TES 3 or ESO assuming he is encountered in that expansion?

Yeah, from ESO I think. I must confess that I haven't actually played ESO, I've tried to get into a few times, but MMOs just aren't my thing. So I get my ESO lore info either from a friend or from the spacebattles thread. I distinctly remember someone telling me that Fyr said that and I'm currently trying to find where it was.

I'll get back to you.

 

[Self_Love]

Have you even played Morrowind?

 

[The_Mysterious_Stranger_-_Delta-]

Now that I think about it, I don't recall him ever stating that in Morrowind. I play the game religiously every year with or without mods, I feel like such a statement would have certainly jumped out at me Shazam. I guess it's in ESO then.

 

[Self_Love]

Fyr never said that. Here's his dialogue in ESO


http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Divayth_Fyr

 

[Shazam121]

Thanks Self Love. This is what I was remembering:

"Defeating a Daedric Prince in his own realm? That's a feat that even I would have trouble repeating. Only a great fool would pass up the opportunity to employ a Prince-slayer."

So he does seem to think that he is comparable to a Prince.

 

[Self_Love]

No, he doesn't.

 

[Shazam121]

He's saying he would have trouble replicating the player's feat. He's not saying that it would be impossible.

That statement does imply that Fyr thinks he could put up a decent fight. With defeat not being a foregone conclusion.

I'm not saying I agree with him though. He's likely just being egotistical.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

The Dovahkin never fought a prince, but he defeated Alduin, who in turn battled and defeated Dagon seven times, consumed everything and will continue to consume everything throughout the endless cycle of time being reborn, and also defeated Lorkhan at the beginning of time. The only argument against the Dovahkin scaling is that Alduin was for some reason weaker in this battle, which makes no sense.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

Speaking of the whole previous ordeal, Lorkhan has zero-summed before, and Mehrunes Dagon knew about the first Walking Way, so it doesn't make sense that they wouldn't know about CHIM.

 

[Aeyu]

But I'm pretty sure Alduin's incarnation (It's not his real form; his real form WILL end the kalpa) is only Low 2-C or High 2-A if you want to scale him to the incarnations of Daedric Princes. (Specifically, both are derived from Akatosh; Akatosh's incarnation in Martin Septim could defeat an incarnation of Mehrunes Dagon, who was planning to merge Nirn with (iirc) his plane of Oblivion, which would be a High 2-A feat, as Oblivion exists outside of normal space and time (Not higher, as Nirn is not countlessly/infinitely dimensioned like some of the planes of Oblivion).

 

[Shazam121]

But I'm pretty sure Alduin's incarnation (It's not his real form; his real form WILL end the kalpa) is only Low 2-C or High 2-A if you want to scale him to the incarnations of Daedric Princes. (Specifically, both are derived from Akatosh; Akatosh's incarnation in Martin Septim could defeat an incarnation of Mehrunes Dagon, who was planning to merge Nirn with (iirc) his plane of Oblivion, which would be a High 2-A feat, as Oblivion exists outside of normal space and time (Not higher, as Nirn is not countlessly/infinitely dimensioned like some of the planes of Oblivion).

From what I remember it was never made clear what Dagon planned on doing with Nirn (to be fair plans aren't his strong suit).

But why is merging Nirn with his own plane a High 2-A feat?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Because Oblivion is at least fifth-dimensional and Daedra are a dimensions higher than Nirn, which is 4D.

And yes, what Alduin was going to do was clear. He was going to literally eat the world, and end all of time,

 

[Shazam121]

Is that Alduin part directed at me? Cus I was talking about Dagon.

Also, should this thread be closed? It has been completely derailed.

 

[KinkiestSins]

I think Matt makes sense.

But yes, this has been derailed.

I trust Matt, Aeyu or Nia in the future will make a TES thread regarding all of this.

 

[Kami95]

If someone unlocks the pages so I can add the new abilities we could close the thread.

 

[Elizhaa]

bump

 

[Kami95]

Bump.