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Hero of Kvatch hax addition

Kami95

Kami95

484
55
The Champion of Cyrodil should have: Empathic Manipulation (via Illusion spells), Illusion Creation, Corrosion Inducement (can destroy weapons and armor with "disintegrate" spells), One Hit Kill (via Mehrunes' Razor) and Resistance to Magic (via enchanted items). If he becomes a vampire he should also have weakness to fire and sunlight. As New Sheogorath he also has Madness Manipulation (which should be added to the other Sheogorath as well).

Edit: also Blessed (by the Divines), Transmutation (via Wabbajack) and possibly Duplication (via Skull of Corruption, although this may fall under Illusion Creation) and the ability to harm intangible beings (ghosts) with silver and enchanted weapons. Sheogorath (both, if we're gonna keep both pages) should also have possible Type 5 Immortality (all the other daedric princes have this) and Weather Manipulation (can freely manipulate weather in the Shivering Isles and do this). New Sheogorath should also have Acausality (the old one already has it).
 
I agree with most of these, but i don't understand why we have two sheogorath pages. We should just have Jyggalag and him separate since they're now two different entities
 
No idea, maybe you should ask an admin. Other addictions I just thought of: Blessed (by the Divines), Transmutation (via Wabbajack) and possibly Duplication (via Skull of Corruption, although this may fall under Illusion Creation). He should also be able to harm intangible beings (ghosts) with Magic and Enchanted Items.
 
I think it's best if we remove the Sheogorath tab for Kvatch's page while having the current Sheo page have two tabs saying " old sheo " and "new sheo" while having Jyggalag completely separate.
 
The entire mantling stuff is a mess in TES, the games haven't yet made up their mind if it matters or not. In ESO we learn that people have mantled Sheogorath before (Haskill being an example), but in Oblivion I think we are told that Sheo has never tried this before(?). I know some people think the entire SI questline was a practical joke on the HoK, no idea what the basis for this one is though.

And I don't see why we need a new or old Sheo tab. Nothing of real value changed about Sheogorath from Oblivion to Skyrim, he's the same character he's always been.
 
Well ESO is an MMO, so it's bound to retcon some stuff from the original.

Yes, nothing really changed nor any new powers, but the majority of the common TES base know that Kvatch became Sheogorath so it's best to just add it in for organization sake.
 
While I agree with these, the TES verse as a whole is set to receive some pretty massive upgrades in the future, most notably the Daedra being at least High 2-A and up to High 1-B, users of CHIM and comparable beings being 1-A, and the Godhead and its derivatives being 0 and High 1-A, respectively. The 6-B key for CoC is going to be changed, as well as the Dragonborn's and a sleuth of other characters, so be prepared for insane reivisions in the near future.

I encourage the OP to leave a message on Matthew's wall instead, as he's gonna be a big force in helping this verse get much needed TLC.
 
Aeyu said:
to High 1-B, users of CHIM and comparable beings being 1-A, and the Godhead and its derivatives being 0 and High 1-A, respectively.
Click to expand...
That's ridiculous. Source please. CHIM is mentioned like 3 times in the games and always in vague and contradictory terms. Only one person we meet in-game claims to have it (Vivec) and you can beat him to death with your fists.

And we don't even know if anything above the Divines or Daedra actually exists. Never mind having concrete feats for them.
 
It's not ridiculous, and there's a number of sources, guidebooks, and other canon resources that confirm these tiers. Matt, The Everlasting, a few others and myself all support these ratings, and you should expect a lengthy upgrade thread in the near future. Additionally, a pretty large respect thread on Spacebattles outlines many reasons why said tiers make a lot of sense.

The form you fight of Vivec's is not his actual self, and he has a number of feats which put him above the Daedra and even close to the level of some of the Amaranths. He can operate in realms outside of space and time altogether as a concept proficiently, and exists at a perspective which utterly transcends an infinitely layered reality, not to mention being above the Ideal Masters who themselves live in a Platonic Ideal which transcends space and time conceptually by the nature of being Platonic.

As far as issues with canon, that's probably going to be allowed to be more liberal as well.
 
I've read a large part of the Spacebattle page at one point or another. It's a great compilation of information, but like most threads and discussions of its kind, it largely ignores anti-feats. Now could you point me to some specific feats, rather than linking a huge thread to crawl through and guess a what you mean

"The form you fight of Vivec's is not his actual self"

What source did you have in mind for this?

"and he has a number of feats which put him above the Daedra"

Such as? There is the Trial of Vivec where he banishes Azura. But one, that isn't really official lore and two, he used Azura's nymics (true name) to make her powerless. Not to mention that banishing a Daedra doesn't equal High 1-B or 1-A. Even the likes of Divayth Fyr think they can take on a Prince, though I seriously doubt him.

Is there something else you had in mind?

" even close to the level of some of the Amaranths"

Right. And what is that level? Because Amaranths have hardly been mentioned at this point.

"He can operate in realms outside of space and time"

Yep. He can. But then a lot of things in TES can as space and time don't really matter all that much.

"and exists at a perspective which utterly transcends an infinitely layered reality"

What's this then?

"not to mention being above the Ideal Masters who themselves live in a Platonic Ideal which transcends space and time conceptually."

I'm the one who had these added to the Master's pages, admittedly I didn't know what to make of it, but Ant seemed to think it wasn't much. And Vivec is probably above them, though I don't think that's actually confirmed anywhere.
 
Though, according to my friend, the new Summerset expansion has some impressive feats so that might be interesting. He can't share until the NDA drop though.
 
@Shazam

For most of this, you're going to need to wait for the thread, which will be coming soon, I promise you. There's quite a bit of information that's going to be dumped. We're not simply relying on that Spacebattles respect thread, though it is being considered.

All I know is that the fallacy where we can't use anything that's not directly stated in the game non-metaphorically is sort-of just that, a fallacy. Rejecting Kirkbride and similar authors due to things like C0DA is rather arbitrary. Not to mention we're not only using side-lore as a verifiable thing, so these revisions should still stand.

Trust me, I felt as adamant as you at first about being against it, but I encourage you to keep an open mind about the coming thread. The profiles, in my frank opinion, like the Star Trek ones, are terribad, and very much need revisions.

And a Platonic Ideal is clearly stated to be the nature of the Ideal Masters - Platonic ideals are metaphysical concepts which utterly transcend the applications of space and time.
 
"All I know is that the fallacy where we can't use anything that's not directly stated in the game non-metaphorically is sort-of just that, a fallacy. Rejecting Kirkbride and similar authors due to things like C0DA is rather arbitrary."

Why? This seems very simple to me. TES is owned by the license holders, it's not open source. Someone who isn't working for them can't just add whatever they like to the official lore. If a ex-Star War's writer started writing what basically amounts to Star War's fanfiction would you consider it official?

Naturally, I don't have a problem with using Mk's stuff that has been used in the games. I just disagree with declaring everything he's done or said as official.

I honestly don't understand what the big fuss is anyway, most of the impressive feats are already a part of the official lore, hell some of MK's work even downgrades TES.

"And a Platonic Ideal is clearly stated to be the nature of the Ideal Masters"

I know that, as I said I'm the one who added this information to the Ideal Master's page. I'm just saying that I wasn't sure what it implied and Ant didn't think it meant much at the time.
 
Not to throw Ant under the bus (I'm not if you're reading this, Ant) but I'm unsure if he understands the specifics of Platonic ideals and things like that, as it's a philosophical thing, and this is an indexing site. As I said, not trying to throw under the bus, but it's a complex thing.

And TES has been said many times to be very open as far as what it considers canon. This is almost the core of the verse, and I think that keeping a more open mind to facilitate the spirit of the verse is necessary. Being arbitrarily restrictive, especially since his work is largely considered canon as long as it doesn't DIRECTLY conflict with other canon, is just that, arbitrary.

There's a lot of information in books and in official descriptions, as well, that back this up, and High 2-A Daedra/1-A Vivec and others is specifically going off the games. The other writings largely corroborate these ratings, in fact.

As I've said, you'll have to wait for the thread that Matt will likely be making soon. (He'll likely comment here, as well) But I encourage you to keep an open mind, as I think all interpretations need to be accounted for.
 
If nobody has anything against the additions can someone unlock the profiles for CoC and Sheogorath? The tier revision is obviously more important, but I understand that will have to wait until a major CRT is made, right?
 
I don't see why we don't scale the protagonists to characters that are powerful that they've fought. Nothing suggests Vivec was weaker when he fought the Nerevarine than when he fought Daedric Princes, and nothing suggests that Alduin was any weaker when he fought the Dovahkin than when he fought Lorkhan, or Molag Bal, or ate the Kalpa. I'm not sure why lower keys exist for the Daedric Princes and Vivec and others.

Whenever the revision thread happens, I'll be there, arguing for 1-A et-Ada, and 1-A Alduin, and by measure, 1-A Dovahkin, too. There exist statements saying in-game portrayal is limited, which should be obvious.

But uhm, until then-
 
What is the implication that Alduin is using an avatar, though? Why would he hold back against the Dovahkin in a situation so serious? And "physical" is a very weird thing to think about in general in the context of anything happening in Aetherius. Aetherius is the place where Tall Papa used to hide those spirits that were more powerful than concepts from Satakal consuming them. It's just a really weird thing to think about any physical fight happening there at all, this goes back to the thing I mentioned about visual limitations due to being in a video game. We also have things like the Dovahkin wielding weapons that were used by people like Magnus and Auriel, and the Bow of Auriel can also meaningfully affect Magnus, even in Aetherius, where you can't argue he's just closing up a hole.
 
Well, I'm not certain about Alduin possessing an Avatar, but the Tribunal in their prime generally fought on par with Daedric Avatars including the Nerevarine who battled Hircine on Solstheim. As far as I'm concerned, the only member of the Tribunal who could actually beat a Daedric prince within their realm is Vivec, because of his knowledge of Chim. I believe Nerevar God-Killer also possesses Chim according to the lessons, but I'll have to look into it. He unfortunately doesn't have a page though.
 
Vivec didn't use CHIM in Morrowind, he was heavily depowered. And Alduin likely hadn't reached his World-Eater level of power yet.
 
I never said they could. They just never turn up there at all.

And I didn't say he used CHIM in Morrowind, but even before CHIM, he still should've been on par with Daedric Princes, and Alduin fought Lorkhan at the beginning of time. He's comparable to more powerful et-Ada even before he begins gaining power from eating everything.
 
I dunno if I agree with 1-A, but I definitely think Dragonborn and the Neverarine will be receiving massive upgrades anyway. Miraak, who the Dragonborn fought, was capable of resisting the power of an infinite realm's influence, and DB was above Miraak, as he notes that Alduin would have given him trouble. Additionally, the power of "Dragon Aspect" gives the DB the full power of a dragon. Finally, the Heroes of Sovngarde might be able to scale to Tsun, but that would only make DB Low 2-C unless he/she scales fully to Alduin's incarnation, which may be on par with Akatosh's incarnation (High 2-A). And I suppose I could accept that.
 
I'm not sure where the High 2-A stuff comes from, but there are High 1-B statements for the size of Nirn and Oblivion planes. I'd also like to note that the planes of Oblivion are just physical planes that Daedric Princes create within themselves just to reflect upon their formless selves, and Oblivion should be much larger than the planes of Oblivion, as it is the blood of Sithis.
 
My thoughts on the matter are not very popular and I'm sort of the mind that TES is incompatible with the tiering system in place on this site. As far as its god tier is concerned anyway.

But regardless of my personal feelings on the subject, perhaps it would be best to wait until at least the 21st of this month before making any major changes as that is when the NDA on the new Summerset expansion for ESO is lifted (I think).

I've been led to believe that this new expansion could have some significant feats or something to that effect, which may, in turn, require a change in the profiles.
 
The Everlasting said:
"TES is incompatible with the tiering system in place on this site."
What does that even mean?
Click to expand...
I'm assuming you are asking why I think that. Well, as I said, that idea is just a niggling thought at the moment and it's not even an original one. It comes from someone else.

It's not as if I've given it any great thought as of yet and I don't currently plan on bringing it up again so it should be irrelevant. If you really want to know where it came from I can message you on your wall later on after thinking it over.
 
A lot of what you say as examples for that are just wrong. Vivec didn't have CHIM in Morrowind and had been weakened by centuries prior.

You never fight a full Daedric Prince in any game, save for Online where you are amped by the Amulet of Kings when you do so.
 
 
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