Hagoromo / Hamura Revision [Naruto]

[Damage3245]

Issue

So, for the longest time we've rated Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki and Hamura Ōtsutsuki by splitting the "moving the Moon into orbit" feat between them ever since it was revealed that both Hamura and Hagoromo were responsible for sealing the 10-Tails / Kaguya into the Moon.

However as Jvando pointed out recently, moving the Moon into orbit is not necessarily the same thing as creating the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei in the first place.

If Hamura really didn't contribute anything to moving the Moon itself, and Hagoromo himself did it alone after becoming the 10-Tails Jinchuuriki then we will need new justifications to scale their base forms.

If anyone has evidence suggesting Hamura is also responsible for moving the Moon, then the current justifications can stay.

Possible Proposal
So here is my current proposal if we do change the current scaling; we scale Hamura and base Hagoromo to the same values that Naruto and Sasuke's calc produced; 201.705 Exatons each. Since both groups of people used the same jutsu to produce roughly the same result. This would make base Hagoromo and base Hamura as Moon level.

Hagoromo as the 10-Tails Jinchuuriki will scale to the full value of the calc for moving the Moon into orbit, putting him at the low end of Small Planet level.

Madara as the 10-Tails Jinchuuriki shouldn't fully scale to this due to Hagoromo stating that Madara was only approaching him in power and the fact that Madara is missing chunks of chakra from each of the Tailed Beasts (including half the Nine-Tails), but should be part way in between. I would recommend putting him as At least Moon level, likely higher for being able to fight both Naruto and Sasuke together.

Kaguya should likewise by At least Moon level, likely higher for being more powerful (in terms of raw power at least) than this version of Madara. She was also able to overpower both Naruto and Sasuke individually.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

Damage didn't Hagoromo had the Juubi chakra and not the whole beast like Madara/Kaguya had though?

Jin Madara Pre Shinjuu approached Hagoromo. After Shinjuu + Second Rinnegan power ups he should be really comparable. The Databook also said that Madara after gaining the second Rinnegan unleashed the true power of the Sage.

Good proposals though.

Databook

The power of the Rikudou (/Six Paths)

Main Body

An excellent opportunity came to fruition…!! Recovering the "Rinnegan" for both of his eyes, Madara unleashes the true power of the Six Paths! Both of his eyes release a sharp brilliance: they certainly feel dauntless and decisive. Madara was still not tired of waiting for the execution of his plan. As if a testament to his willpower, the Shinjyu (/God Tree) budded. ÒÇîWhen someone who possesses the power of the Rinne (/endless cycle of transmigration) approaches the moon, an eye will open for the sake of granting an infinite dream. Then (that wish) will be reflected upon the moon.ÒÇì…In accordance with the stone tablet of the Uchiha clan, Madara awakened a ÒÇîThird EyeÒÇìupon his forehead. He negated everything in order to create a world without abominable chakra… Madara wished for ÒÇîa true dreamÒÇì. (His wish) should have been immediately accomplished there…

Top Caption

By taking in the Jyuubi and the Shinjyu, all of the chakra was restored by Madara's own hands!

 

[Damage3245]

@KOMIE; the backstory of the Sage of Six Paths is filled with a lot of contradictory information and retcons.

But the Sage must have had the whole beast because he had the Gedo Mazou statue sealed inside of him.

 

[AstralKing7]

Kaguya would be low 5B because of the Juubi and the Juubi would be low 5B for giving Hag that much energy.


But there aslo the matter of making sure that hag actually had the Juubi inside of him because that may have gotten retconned

 

[TataHakaiJr]

Downgrading Naruto verse from planet level to moon level on Kishimoto sensei birthday ? Smh the audacity I also feel like damage324 hates Naruto as he's mostly always trying to downgrade its tiers

 

[The_Calaca]

The classic ad hominem.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

There is no proof that Either Hamura nor Hagoromo moved the moon alone. It's unquantifiable. The feat shouldn't be looked at as, "Did Hamura contribute to moving the moon."


TBH, it seems the Creation and movement are just a standard part of the Jutsu and not attributed to any one individual.

 

[Ovrhide]

Kaguya scales above small planet level do to WoG then. she isnt moon level if hagoromo is higher in tier.

even old hagoromo stated that while madara is approaching him, he is also trying to aquire kaguyas power

 

[SsjKale100]

Your theory is false Hagoromo creating moon by himself is a vague statement from Obito who wasn't even around to know himself

In the databook Hamura is stated to have helped fight Kaguya and seal her into the Moon. There was also another databook from The Last Movie, that talks about Hamura. The page also says Hamura helped seal Kaguya into the moon and moved there. So we have two sources that support Hamura helping Hagoromo create and seal away the moon into the sky. The manga databook even says the word 'Hurl' into the sky as if it was done quickly but pure speculation on its speed.

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https://imgur.com/a/0MsOZld

 

[Damage3245]

@SsjKale100; true, there isn't anything explicit in the later parts of the manga stating that Hagoromo himself was the only one involved in moving the Moon.

@TFO; so you support the current scaling?

 

[AstralKing7]

Yea so... Hag at that moment didn't have ten tails inside him. He had already divided the beasts into nine and freed them. He used his power alone on his death bed.

Hag would have been immortal if he had kept the ten tails inside of him but he was on his death bed in the first place which supports the statement beforehand that he split the Juubi before he moved the moon

 

[Damage3245]

@AstralKing7; which is another reason why his backstory is contradictory because when he was much younger the Sage's son, Indra, had a crescent Moon as his symbol (whereas Ashura had the Sun). I'm pretty sure the only way this could be the case is if the Moon was in orbit.

Taking the most recent version of the events as the priority; the Moon was not created on Hagoromo's death-bed and it is not implied that he moved it by himself after creating the Tailed Beasts.

What Obito relayed was just a historical version of the story, so giving Hagoromo alone the full value of the calc doesn't really sit right with me.

 

[Lop222]

about Hagoromo and hamura creating the moon.

Black Zetsu stated that Hagoromo and Hamura sealed the Ten-tails in the moon. The databook says during the sealing of the Ten-tails,
[URL='https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/b/be/Hamura_depart.png/revision/latest?cb=20191108165854'][/URL]

the gedo mazo was sealed in the moon and the Ten-tails chakra inside hagoromo making him incomplete Ten-tails jinchuriki.


That Hagoromo creating the moon on his death-bed is retconned

 

[Ovrhide]

all the evidence points to hagoromo and hamura creating it together. it was simply retconed to be such a way.

 

[Damage3245]

I see. So far the majority of people are in favour of keeping the profiles as they currently are.

 

[Ovrhide]

noyt retconed, but the story wasnt complete

 

[MostPowerfull]

Kaguya is more powerful than Madara's strongest form, declared by Hagoromo himself (Spirit) who was approaching his power.

Kaguya obviously scales to Small Planet Level.

 

[AstralKing7]

Thanks for the civil thread

 

[MostPowerfull]

Whether or not Hagoromo created the moon alone ...

The story is extremely badly told. Some facts are interesting to note:

• The historical version of the facts does not include Hamura and says that Hagoromo battled Juubi and sealed her with his last forces and breath of life.

• The databook adds by saying that Hamura, Hagoromo's brother, assisted in the battle.

• Kurama literally says that he was incapacitated months after separating the Juubi chakra and only survives while owning Gedo Mazo.

• The databook again reports that Six Paths: Chibaku Tensei needs two people, both with a Yin and Yang seal, to complete and activate the sealing.

• However, after losing Gedo Mazo from his body, Obito maintained his consciousness for only a few minutes and only because Zetsu was tied to his body. In fact, Zetsu often refers to Obito as "an almost dead scum" or something:

https://**********.com/manga/Naruto/0659-004.png
~ https://**********.com/manga/Naruto/0659-009.png

He literally only stayed alive, because Naruto helped him through the Yang seal.

In a quick conclusion ... Yes, we have a small SPECIFIC retcon.
Hagoromo did not seal the moon alone, but with his brother. However, after losing Gedo Mazo, he should not retain enough life force and stamina to stay alive for long. So this also helps in the fact that he was using his last forces/almost dead and in a smaller timeframe.

Note┬╣ - It is possible that Hagoromo simply invented the Crescent Moon design or appeared. After all, this seal also appeared at the time the Kaguya was sealed (these are the seal designs on his hands) and when there was no moon.

As I recall, he never attributed the Yin Seal to the "seal of the moon" or the Yang seal to "the seal of the sun."

 

[Damage3245]

@MostPowerfull; I'm glad we agree at least that the story is poorly told.

When an event has this many retcons and inconsistencies, then it is pretty bad.

 

[MostPowerfull]

@Damage

Agreed. Although, there are not so many retcons, just one in specific or at least, what I remember at the moment.

The story has little holes, obviously ... But "many" inconsistencies, I think is an exaggeration.

 

[Ovrhide]

@MostPowerfull; I'm glad we agree at least that the story is poorly told.
When an event has this many retcons and inconsistencies, then it is pretty bad.

could these specific cases just be that history was not known correctly? as in pieces were still missing? its definitely a retcon, but in this case, the retcon could easily be shifted into not knowing all the facts. we knew hagoromo was a factor from the start, but maybe since he was the most important of the 2, they simply forgot about hamura.

 

[AstralKing7]

I actually agree that history in Naruto was manipulated which created plot holes it seemed like and retcons

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

Why the need for a retcon though?

 

[AstralKing7]

It's not actually a retcon. A lot of stuff Kishi writes is from common sense. It's not a retcon it's jsut the fact that we are told in universe that the history of Shinobi and ninjutsu has been manipulated.

It's safe to assume that Kishi wants us to realize that the reason events keep getting changed is because of the different interpretations of history from different ninjas and Zetsu

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

Ah.

 

[SsjKale100]

It's 2020 and people still try to make Naruto weaker despite the multiple planet level statements in databooks and magazines https://m.imgur.com/a/QI3ZsaI Bleach better be getting a downgrade too soon there's no way Ichigo is planet level for cutting Ywach yet when Naruto cut off Kaguya arm he gets no attention for it

 

[The_Popular_Loser]

It's 2020 and people still try to make Naruto weaker despite the multiple planet level statements in databooks and magazines
https://m.imgur.com/a/QI3ZsaI Bleach better be getting a downgrade too soon there's no way Ichigo is planet level for cutting Ywach yet when Naruto cut off Kaguya arm he gets no attention for it

While I whole heartidly agree with that Bleach statement and also agreeing with them getting downgrading (Probably gonna work on that at a later time) You should probably try not to make those statements as someone will try to report you.

Yet they claim to have "thick skin"

 

[Damage3245]

@SsjKale100, @ShisuiXItachi; this doesn't have anything to do with the topic of the thread. Please take your derailment elsewhere.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

Let's not throw shade, and I'm like 99% sure Damage isn't bias against Naruto or bias towards Bleach. He's just going for accurate statistics, so how's about we stop using ad Hominem and throwing shade at different fandoms?

 

[The_Popular_Loser]

@SsjKale100, @ShisuiXItachi; this doesn't have anything to do with the topic of the thread. Please take your derailment elsewhere.

I was actually trying to deter him from making those comments.. Instead of telling him to go away like a dog. Also this thread seems to be finished. Your last comment was about you agreeing the story was pretty bad. Most of the people here disagree. You can go ahead and close this actually.

 

[AstralKing7]

This thread is finished

 

[SsjKale100]

@SsjKale100, @ShisuiXItachi; this doesn't have anything to do with the topic of the thread. Please take your derailment elsewhere.

You're the only one that decided to wake up and downgrade Naruto god tiers so you should be ready for the massive criticism of this stupid decision

But you are obviously ignoring the lore of Naruto and it's muktple statements in databooks and magazines that says they are planet Level. Kinshiki being able to split planet, Momoshiki draining energy from an entire star thought it was debunked to planet cus the translation, Hokage Naruto TBB STATED TO BLOW AWAY THE EARTH ? Your just gonna ignore that cus you have a hatred for the series so you see it best to downgrade them ? How about downgrading bleach too to be fair. https://m.imgur.com/a/QI3ZsaI And also do not write me off as some random troll I'm more important to the Naruto community than you think https://youtu.be/vkU1_l3KPng

 

[The_Popular_Loser]

@SsjKale100, @ShisuiXItachi; this doesn't have anything to do with the topic of the thread. Please take your derailment elsewhere.

You're the only one that decided to wake up and downgrade Naruto god tiers so you should be ready for the massive criticism of this stupid decision
But you are obviously ignoring the lore of Naruto and it's muktple statements in databooks and magazines that says they are planet Level. Kinshiki being able to split planet, Momoshiki draining energy from an entire star thought it was debunked to planet cus the translation, Hokage Naruto TBB STATED TO BLOW AWAY THE EARTH ? Your just gonna ignore that cus you have a hatred for the series so you see it best to downgrade them ? How about downgrading bleach too to be fair. https://m.imgur.com/a/QI3ZsaI And also do not write me off as some random troll I'm more important to the Naruto community than you think https://youtu.be/vkU1_l3KPng

Dude don't get yourself reported. If you need someone to talk to feel free to post on my wall to blow off steam.

 

[The_Popular_Loser]

Actually dude did you just admit you were a troll i Lol'd

Someone close this.